LN Progressive Pitch Saw Questions

[Richard Magbanua]

I've been lucky enough to get the progressive pitch DT saw from LN. I already have the coarse rip (10ppi) carcass saw and have used that for four or five months now for tenons and dovetails. For most dovetails I used my Crown gents saw which I found to be a very good saw, especially for 25 bucks.

My first impressions after an hour of practice and attempts to break it in are positive. It is a very beautiful saw for sure and I find that the handle is very comfortable. However, it seems that the cut is a bit grabby with a coarse sound/feel, esp in the middle. This is after 150 practice cuts in poplar and another 50 in oak and trying different sawing pressures. My carcass saw, which has the same kerf (0.026), starts easier and cuts much smoother throughout the whole cut. The DT saw tracks very well and I haven't had any problems staying with the line. I realize the progressive pitch feature takes it to 9ppi and I 'spose I should be able to feel it but it seems the biggest benefit I kept hearing about was it is very easy to start. I continued to compare my two saws and it still seems easier to start my carcass saw. The carcass saw also feels much smoother and left a cut that looked the same as the PP DT saw. The only other difference between the two that I can tell is that the DT saw is lighter.

Does anyone else who has used the prog pitch saw and find something similar?

If all things seem equal, is there an advantage of keeping both vs just keeping the carcass saw? Or should I try the regular DT saw?

I know it's likely that I need to keep breaking-in the new saw. C Schwarz said he didn't even like it until a year later when it became his favorite DT saw. At the moment I'm not seriously considering switching it out with another. It's still a really nice saw and I have made some decent DT's with it (most likely due to the practice). I'm just looking for some feedback from those in the know.

Thanks!

[Rick Erickson]

I know it is a bit more expensive but you may want to try Rob Cosman's saw. If you are looking for a saw that starts easy that is the one to go with. To me the progressive pitch doesn't make much sense. With the Cosman saw the first few inches have more teeth (22 to be exact) and then evens out through the rest of the blade (15 teeth). That way you can use the end of the saw to start the cut (very fine teeth) and then use the rest of the saw for the rest of the cutting. I feel it is a superb saw that takes NO getting use to. I owned a standard LN dovetail saw and it was great (except for starting the cut). Cosman's saw solves that problem and more. If you've got the funds give it a shot. You won't be disappointed.

[gary Zimmel]

I have the regular LN dovetail saw and also the LN progressive.
The regular or standard LN was what I learnt on.
After getting the LN progressive and giving it a good workout I still prefer the regular one. Starting the saw was not really a big issue as I try and take a lot of the weight of the saw off the wood so it will start quite easily.
I too don't really understand the progressive idea.

When Rob C. came out with his new dovetail saw I found it started easily, very very easily. I especially like it when doing a pin board on a half blind.
To me the LN are great saws. Robs is just a little better in my opinion.

If you are able to try out the regular one and make a decision.
I'm the wrong guy to ask if you should get another one.
My saw stable is overflowing.....

[David Keller NC]

Richard - One thing to remember is that any carcasse saw (by definition, filed cross-cut) is going to be easier to start than a rip-filed saw unless the rip's tpi is really small (less than 12 tpi). If you think about the tooth geometry, that makes sense - the cross-cut is filed so that it resembles a knife when presented to the end grain. A rip-filed saw presents a geometry that more resembles a flat-bladed screwdriver forced against the grain.

[Richard Magbanua]

Rick and Gary,
I have seen the Cosman saw but I'm afraid it's a bit out of my range (many other tools on my "list"). I would like to test drive it someday though. Gary, since you have all three saws discussed I would be happy to take the Cosman saw off of your hands for a while. Freeing up space in the till may allow you to get another one :D

David,
the carcass saw I have is the coarse rip saw at 10ppi. It is a wonderful saw so I was expecting the DT saw, which starts out at 16ppi to be noticeably smoother with a cleaner cut. I have looked at the inside of the cuts of both and cannot tell them apart. That's why I wonder if I would be better off either swapping the prog pitch for the regular 15ppi DT saw since starting a cut isn't something I think I have difficulty with, or just use the coarse rip for dt's and swap the prog pitch for the x-cut carcass saw to compliment what I have.

Is the cut from the 15ppi DT saw significantly better than the 10ppi coarse rip?

And if my options aren't dizzying enough I could return the saw and, spending a bit more, get all three of the Veritas saws.
I am however very, very thankful and blessed that I am able to contemplate such choices.

Thanks for the input, guys! :)

[Gary Benson]

Richard,
I have a Wenzloff and an Adria. I have used several of Robs's saws, an original Taran, the vertitas saw, and many LN's, both standard and progressive pitch. Maybe it's just me, but they are all slightly different, but none were (again in my opinion) dramatically better than the others. Some are lighter, heavier, longer, shorter, etc. but I think you can use any of them and you get used to which ever one you choose. I will admit that I am partial to my Wenzloff to this day, just because it it the first saw I owned and have used it for 3 years. I have tried all the others, and keep coming back to it. My Adria was grabby as you describe, but it is getting better and smoother with use, and it is much heavier. It does leave a smother cut than the Wenzloff, but does not cut as fast despite the extra weight. My ability to start a cut was learned on the Wenzloff, and the new smaller starter teeth or progressive pitch, honestly, don't help me much, but I likely still use the same technique even though the saws don't require it. My suggestion is stick with the LN and practice, over time you will learn how it works.
Good luck, have fun,
Gary

[David Keller NC]

Rick and Gary,
David,
the carcass saw I have is the coarse rip saw at 10ppi. It is a wonderful saw so I was expecting the DT saw, which starts out at 16ppi to be noticeably smoother with a cleaner cut. I have looked at the inside of the cuts of both and cannot tell them apart. That's why I wonder if I would be better off either swapping the prog pitch for the regular 15ppi DT saw since starting a cut isn't something I think I have difficulty with, or just use the coarse rip for dt's and swap the prog pitch for the x-cut carcass saw to compliment what I have.

Is the cut from the 15ppi DT saw significantly better than the 10ppi coarse rip?

And if my options aren't dizzying enough I could return the saw and, spending a bit more, get all three of the Veritas saws.
I am however very, very thankful and blessed that I am able to contemplate such choices.

Thanks for the input, guys! :)

Generally speaking, the smoothness of a cut from a x-cut filed saw will be a bit better than a rip-filed saw as well as being easier to start. The problem with using a x-cut saw in a rip cut has to do with its propensity to follow grain.

Whether this is something you'll experience has a lot to do with the wood you're using. Straight-grained wood without a lot of hardness difference between early and late wood doesn't cause much grain-following problems, IMO. Things change if the wood's heavily figured or has an extreme contrast between early and late wood - cypress and yellow pine are good examples of woods with big differences between the two seasonal growth patterns.

One other aspect that affects the smoothness of the cut left by a saw is the technique used by the sawyer. Those with the ability to hold the saw perfectly balanced in the kerf without the plate touching either side tend to get smoother end results, as do those that let the weight of the saw do all the cutting (which is slower). Those that let the saw flop a bit in the kerf (count me in this group) or that put some downward force on the saw wind up with a kerf that's a bit more ragged.

However, I'd suggest that unless its extreme, the raggedness of the kerf really has no bearing on the look of the resulting assembled joint if it's the typical situation of a hard primary and a soft secondary wood, and if the fit is tight. A slightly ragged kerf is more visible if the two woods being put together are both hard - like maple on maple, for example.

I suppose these observations don't help much on your decision as to whether to return the saw or swap it out for something different. In the end, that's a personal choice that only you can decide.

One aspect that might affect your decision is the ability to self-sharpen your saws. I prefer a standard, consistent pitch and rake in my saws because it means that the stroke and grip on the saw file is the same all the way down the length of the saw plate. If you don't intend to sharpen your own saws, that might not be a factor.