What is the dislike of biscuit's all about?

[Joshua Dinerstein]

I was reading a review for a book by Norm Abram of New Yankee Workshop fame. One of the reviewers said he could have no respect for anyone who used biscuits in joinery. He was not alone in this tho there were just as many people who seemed to be on the other side of this question.

From watching the show it seems a nice solid way to make a joint when glueing up panels for sides and tops of various projects.

Can anyone explain to me the dislike for this technique? I was planning to use it on a few things I am thinking about trying to make so I am curious as to the pros and cons for this approach.

Thanks,
Joshua

[Matt Day]

The main comment you'll get is that they are not structural by any means, they simply help with allignment of the two pieces. The strength still comes from the glue. I use them for allignment quite a bit, and they help to prevent the boards creeping when in the glue up clamps.

[Prashun Patel]

In the articles I read (which all have their controversies) the biscuit is at the lower end of the spectrum, but it does offer moderate improvement over the butt joint.

Ever use a BJoiner? Could anything be easier? Even a Dowelmax takes a little more time than the joiner.

For parts that don't require max strength, there's probably a good argument for using biscuits for ease and speed.

I've read a lot of posts about the theoretical weaknesses of biscuits. But I've never heard from someone who's witnessed a failing of a one of the scads of casegoods made with them. I'm sure you're out there....?

Plus they taste so good with butter and gravy.

[Lee Schierer]

I agree with Matt, that biscuits add little if any strength to most joints. There are exceptions. They do help with alignment, but so do rabbet joints and other means. Biscuits can cause other problems such as occurs when you trim a panel and forget where the biscuits were located and expose one or more. I've also read that sanding a joint with biscuits too soon after glue up can result in biscuit shaped depressions in the board surface when the wood around the biscuit dries to the same moisture level as the rest of the board.

The purists will say they are not acceptable for Heirloom pieces, but then if the old time cabinet makers had been able to get them they probably would have used them.

I prefer my biscuits fresh from the oven with a little butter and honey....

[Jason White]

I've made drawer boxes for shop cabinets using nothing but biscuits (and a dado for the bottom) and they've held up just fine under moderate abuse.

Jason


I was reading a review for a book by Norm Abram of New Yankee Workshop fame. One of the reviewers said he could have no respect for anyone who used biscuits in joinery. He was not alone in this tho there were just as many people who seemed to be on the other side of this question.

From watching the show it seems a nice solid way to make a joint when glueing up panels for sides and tops of various projects.

Can anyone explain to me the dislike for this technique? I was planning to use it on a few things I am thinking about trying to make so I am curious as to the pros and cons for this approach.

Thanks,
Joshua

[David Keller NC]

I was reading a review for a book by Norm Abram of New Yankee Workshop fame. One of the reviewers said he could have no respect for anyone who used biscuits in joinery. He was not alone in this tho there were just as many people who seemed to be on the other side of this question.

From watching the show it seems a nice solid way to make a joint when glueing up panels for sides and tops of various projects.

Can anyone explain to me the dislike for this technique? I was planning to use it on a few things I am thinking about trying to make so I am curious as to the pros and cons for this approach.

Thanks,
Joshua

Joshua - the objection to Norm's use of biscuits comes from several different directions. There is the (legitimate) argument that biscuits don't add any strength to an edge-joint when gluing up a panel.

There is also the fact that Norm makes many "reproductions", and the argument - which I ascribe to, by the way - is that it is inappropriate to make copies of 250 year old furniture with modern glues, screws, dowels, biscuits, sandpaper and polyurethane finishes, because the result screams "Fake" to an educated observer.

Finally, there is the argument that many of the modern techniques of biscuit joinery, pocket screws, dovetail router jigs and loose tenons are often used as a shortcut to learning how to do the traditional methods of mortise and tenons, handsawn dovetails, and traditional drawer construction. There is some validity to this argument, because it replaces the "workmanship of risk" with the "workmanship of certainty" - while there is some skill required to accomplish a dovetail joint with a Leigh jig, it is not on the same level with learning to layout, saw, and pare the same dovetail joint with hand tools.

In the end, my opinion is simply that the methods should fit the product - if I'm making a step stool for the kitchen out of poplar, I will likely glue and screw it together, and back-fill the screw holes with tapered plugs. And college dorm room bookcases are just fine with screwed butt joints, shelf pins and a polyurethane paint job. On a higher level, modern studio furniture should, in my opinion, have a machine-perfect, smooth surface with no evidence of handplane marks, and perhaps a really nice, catalyzed conversion varnish finish.

But I would never put such a finish on a cherry Connecticut highboy reproduction from 1790.

[Bill White]

Let me answer with this.....
Ya ain't gettin' MY biscuit joiner. Arguments being what they are, I suppose there was a time when some craftsman said, "Why would ANYBODY use one of them new circular saws".
Never had a biscuit joint fail or shift. SO THERE.....(snicker). :D
Bill

[george wilson]

David said it all. I wouldn't use biscuits on a serious project,myself.

[Paul Ryan]

Let me answer with this.....
Ya ain't gettin' MY biscuit joiner. Arguments being what they are, I suppose there was a time when some craftsman said, "Why would ANYBODY use one of them new circular saws".
Never had a biscuit joint fail or shift. SO THERE.....(snicker). :D
Bill


I second Bill's feelings. You ain't gettin' my biscuit joiner either. It comes in real handy in many cases and I too have never had a joint fail.

That said, for pieces that need strenght I use mortise and tendons. There is a place for and not for biscuits, it is just another tool in my arsenal. I don't subscribe to the arguments that the purists believe. If a biscuit joiner was around 150 years ago they would have used it for many things. Instead some think it is cheating............... Balony.

[Mike Henderson]

I don't see any advantage to biscuits on edge glue ups, and see the disadvantage of cutting through one because you put it in the wrong place. On edge gluing they don't add any strength compared to the wood-to-wood contact which is stronger than the wood. They do help with alignment but I mostly use cauls if I have alignment problems.

The place where I do use biscuits is on miter joints. They provide additional strength to the miter but you can do them invisible. Splines show.

Like many things in woodwork, they have their place.

Mike

[Dick Sylvan]

There is also the fact that Norm makes many "reproductions", and the argument - which I ascribe to, by the way - is that it is inappropriate to make copies of 250 year old furniture with modern glues, screws, dowels, biscuits, sandpaper and polyurethane finishes, because the result screams "Fake" to an educated observer.


So do you use hide glue for all of your reproduction projects? If you do, then only you are going to know. If that makes you feel good, that's great, but to tell others that using modern glues is inappropriate is,IMHO, inappropriate.

[Chris Kennedy]

There is also the fact that Norm makes many "reproductions", and the argument - which I ascribe to, by the way - is that it is inappropriate to make copies of 250 year old furniture with modern glues, screws, dowels, biscuits, sandpaper and polyurethane finishes, because the result screams "Fake" to an educated observer.

I would question what the point of reproduction furniture is -- is it that it matches the aesthetics and design of the period, or that you fool an educated observer? I like certain design styles, and it is exactly that -- the design -- not the method of construction. And of course it's a fake. If it only derives value from its age not its aesthetics, then its value is artificially inflated.



Finally, there is the argument that many of the modern techniques of biscuit joinery, pocket screws, dovetail router jigs and loose tenons are often used as a shortcut to learning how to do the traditional methods of mortise and tenons, handsawn dovetails, and traditional drawer construction. There is some validity to this argument, because it replaces the "workmanship of risk" with the "workmanship of certainty" - while there is some skill required to accomplish a dovetail joint with a Leigh jig, it is not on the same level with learning to layout, saw, and pare the same dovetail joint with hand tools.

David said it all. I wouldn't use biscuits on a serious project,myself.

I have seen this point made several times, and honestly, I find it pretty funny. I'm a mathematician for my day job, and I do a lot of theoretical work. I know how to compute a lot of quantities by hand that most people wouldn't think twice about punching into a calculator. One of the reasons difference engine/calculators/computers were invented was to circumvent this need.

Giving a layman the ability to do something only the seriously trained or educated could do -- 'tis a bit frightening. They might take on airs.

Now, before I get attacked -- I do not intend to devalue ability and craftsmanship. Not in the slightest. I am always impressed by fine craftsmanship, and I spend time in my shop trying to better my abilities. I do it because I enjoy it. But just because there is a machine that makes advanced techniques available to the novice, it isn't a bad thing.

Cheers,

Chris

[Narayan Nayar]

I used my biscuit joiner all the time. Until I got my Domino.

After a few years of sitting in its clamshell, I sold the biscuit joiner.

I think they're great for attaching face frames to carcasses, laminating material, gluing up panels, etc. The Domino is good at all of that as well as joinery.

But as with all tools, people have their likes and dislikes.

[Peter Quinn]

I like biscuits well enough and use them for certain things mostly limited to built in plywood based items. They work great for face frames and miters among other things. These items gain their strength from that to which they will be attached, so biscuits get the job done in my mind. They aren't my go to choice for free standing furniture because they aren't strong enough for the long haul and I take no particular satisfaction from using them. So if the satisfaction of making something plays any significant role in what I am making, then they are out on that basis alone. Seriously, make two marks, push the handle, pull the trigger...this is monkey work. But if something falls in the category of fast-N-dirty, I'll consider them.

To address the first point (biscuits lack strength) for the pseudo scientific nay-sayers that will bash any statements not backed up by scores of engineering studies from some university science department in the mid west...I have glued up test joints in my own humble shop, I have beat the living heck out of them with a hammer, the biscuits are always the first to surrender. The M&T is usually the last, partly because even after you have broken the much of wood and the glue joint there is still a significant mechanical connection. Add a few pegs and you have a joint that doesn't even need glue to survive centuries. Ever heard of a pegged biscuit joint?

If that doesn't convince you, try breaking both a #20 biscuit and a 3/8" X 2 1/4" tenon with your bare hands. You don't need an advanced degree in physics to do this test, so please do try it at home!

[Barry Vabeach]

I make some furniture using hand tools and hide glue - of course I don't use biscuits on those pieces. I am posting to add another great, IMHO, application is end grain butt joints, like the corner or a simple cabinet or box or when attaching shelfs to a bookcase or workshop table , usually plywood. Simple glue won't do anything since it is mostly end grain, a mechanical joint, like a dado or sliding dovetail, would be very strong but fairly time consuming to layout and to cut and fit. Biscuits add some real mechanical strength and take almost no time to layout, cut or assemble.

[Scott Hildenbrand]

It's on my essential buy list of things to get, right behind the large pocket hole jig and screw set I picked up a while back.

I can understand people building heirloom pieces and wanting to use only the most craftsman style of construction.. I'm not at that level though and may not be, ever.

I've got no complaints with Norm doing "Reproductions" and using modern techniques as it puts those projects that much closer to the hobby craftsman and inspires them to do some of these more complicated projects that he does.

I know if I HAD to cut my own mortise and tenon joints all by hand, or to use a hot pot of hide glue, or NEED to hand scrape a piece of wood to finish it, I'd never ever contemplate starting the project to begin with.

They might not be the strongest joints, but unless you're building a piece to last 200 years, it doesn't matter that much in my book.

But then, that's just my two cents.

On that note and one I'm sure you've seen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhLfb7m9Fug

[David Keller NC]

Some folks are missing the point of my post. Joshua asked why some have a dislike of the biscuit joint technique on Norm's shows. Regardless of whether one agrees with the arguments or not, the ones I posted are an accurate summary.

One thing I'll note is that I do see the argument that "if John Townsend had had a router, he'd have used it". While this is interesting speculation, it's entirely irrelevant. The very existence of modern tools and methods enabled high-speed factory production, which precluded the existence of the individual craftsman or small shop tradition that produced these famous names. There will always, of course, be individuals making very high-end furniture, but there's a definite distinction between now and then. In the 18th and early 19th century, all furniture was produced by hand in small shops by skilled (and sometimes not so skilled) craftsmen. Once powered machines moved from the rough dimensioning of lumber (water powered saws were around in the 17th century) to being capable of producing the joinery and surface finishing necessary for a credible piece of furniture, the age of handwork was over.

As to why I and others would go to the trouble of producing a piece of furniture by the materials and methods approximating what was originally employed, I'll just note that it's a slippery slope. There are stores that are filled with "Queen Anne" coffee tables that are rather horrible modern representations - veneered mdf, plastic finish and attenuated features amenable to machine production and all.

This is not for everyone, but my personal goal is to have all of what I make absolutely indistinguishable to all but an expert equipped with an extremely accurate carbon dating machine 100 or so years from now. I will say, however, that I started out just as most did - with table saws and sandpaper. I simply came to realize along the way that a windsor chair made from sawn instead of split spindles, a glued-up seat and purchased legs isn't a Windsor chair - it's simply a nice modern representation.

[Matt Meiser]

Ithe disadvantage of cutting through one because you put it in the wrong place

I thought I was the only one! :o

I used my biscuit joiner less and less as my skills improved. Not that it didn't work, but for many things it just didn't add strength or didn't add enough. Plus some place I might have used it I learned to use pocket hole joinery which is faster and self-clamping. I did use it for alignment on some complicated assemblies. I sold it when I bought a Domino. I couldn't think of anything I couldn't do with the Domino that I could with biscuits.

[Montgomery Scott]

Refer to the joint strength article in FWW #148. For the type of joint they test (mortise-tenon, floating mortise, double biscuit butt joint) the biscuit joint is about 45% of the strength of the mortise-tenon joint. The test is rather limited, but does give an indication of the shear strength of a biscuited joint as a butt joint with glue only would be rather weak.

Birch has a shear strength of 840 - 2240 psi parallel to the grain http://www.briggs-ewp.com/page/ybstrength.htm

If we take the average (~1540 psi) and take the approximate area of a #20 biscuit is ~.20 in^2 so a single biscuit would be expected to take ~300 lbf. This strength is hardly insignificant.

[Mark Maleski]

I would question what the point of reproduction furniture is -- is it that it matches the aesthetics and design of the period, or that you fool an educated observer? I like certain design styles, and it is exactly that -- the design -- not the method of construction. And of course it's a fake. If it only derives value from its age not its aesthetics, then its value is artificially inflated.


Different people value different things, and there's nothing wrong with that. Like David, I dislike period-style furniture with modern materials, finishes, or joinery techniques (e.g., biscuits). For me, the point isn't to fool anyone by sticking with period-correct materials and techniques, but to carry the torch first lit by the craftsmen whose products I most admire. Oh, and I am tempted to use a modern glue at times (whenever reversability isn't a factor) - but hide glue *does* offer some nice advantages.

But to address the OP, while I don't have use for biscuits I don't dislike them or anyone who uses 'em!

[Keith Christopher]

I am often worried when people commend on 'reproductions' especially where norm is concerned. He is not trying to duplicate the original but showing techniques that in this day and age can be used to make such pieces. In the end it is a personal pref. I prefer biscuits sometimes, pocket screws sometimes. Depends on the piece. I don't use many biscuits but I have. And I have cut through them as well.

I think this is a personal item. I wonder if the same folks complain about dowel joints. There are a million joints out there each with their pros and cons. loose mortise and tenons are my least favorite but if I get a domino then I am sure I will use them more and more, especially where I don't want the tenon to show. I do like using biscuits for panel glue ups, but I only do it after I'm 'close' to the final dimensions, this way a biscuit that starts 6" above the edge will have no way to get cut into when I get closer.

They all have their place in the shop and their uses. I personally don't like the use of plywood, but there are times where adding real wood would make the piece VERY heavy. If I make a lowboy I would use biscuits during glue up of the side panels and I wouldn't feel bad about it, nor would I even mention it, it is a method of joinery and I REALLY do believe that if it were available those of old would have used them as well.

We pay homage by reproducing masterfully made furniture and using more modern materials/glues in my opinion no way detracts from that.

[David Colafranceschi]

I don't use them a terrible amount but when I have to glue up some boards to make a larger panel I find it quick and easy to aid in the glue up. I'm not too concerned about if it offers extra strength because the shear force of the glue makes it a mute point. In face frame construction for kitchen cupboards I find using them along with pocket screws very fast and efficent and allows me to use less clamps. For furniture I cut my dovetails by hand and make them look authentic with skinny pins. If I am making kitchen cabinets I throw it on the dovetail jig and pull out the router. It all comes down to what you are building and what look are you trying to achieve.

I don't buy the argument that one may 'forget' where you put the biscuit, you do have to mark where you cut your biscuit slot. In Canada we don't have Irion Lumber company that has beautiful wide panels 18+ inches stocked for us so gluing up narrower boards to make a large panel is very normal. In that case I use them for making larger panels and once it is glued up none of you would be able to tell that I have used biscuits.

I believe when it comes to Mr. Abram. The guy is trying to teach some skills to hobbyists and give them some ideas that they can start and complete a project in a reasonable amount of time with an average skill set and give them the courage to tackle another. If somewhere along the line a few graduate to want to learn hand tool skills and take it to the next level than I believe that is wonderful. We may not all agree with his techniques but none of us can argue with his passion to teach and motivate men and women to take up the craft.

[Darrell Bade]

I am not anti biscuit. Years before I ever had a biscuit joiner we had a milking stool that broke at a glue joint in the middle of the top. My uncle used his biscuit joiner and put it back together. It was used for 20 years or more after that to clean windows outside, reach stuff in the garage, etc. It finally broke, but not at the biscuit joint. Doubt if just glue would have held up that good for a step stool. Some other type of joint probably would have held as good but the biscuit was easy and did the job.

When I built my kitchen cabinets last year I used some biscuits. Someone that did not see me put them in will have a hard time being critical of my work since they cannot be seen.

I do think they have their place and cannot see how they determine a persons craftmanship when they cannot be seen. To me a how a joint is done that can be seen determines a persons craftmanship.

[Bob Genovesi]

I was reading a review for a book by Norm Abram of New Yankee Workshop fame. One of the reviewers said he could have no respect for anyone who used biscuits in joinery. He was not alone in this tho there were just as many people who seemed to be on the other side of this question.

From watching the show it seems a nice solid way to make a joint when glueing up panels for sides and tops of various projects.

Can anyone explain to me the dislike for this technique? I was planning to use it on a few things I am thinking about trying to make so I am curious as to the pros and cons for this approach.

Thanks,
Joshua

Hi Joshua,

As many have stated; Biscuits serve as a quick and easy way to align boards, face frames, and a whole lot more. They do not provide much structural strength but then again that's the glues responsibility, not the biscuits.

I use them a lot and will not trade my biscuit jointer, unless of course it's for another....;)

I always find it amazing how others feel compelled criticize others..

Remember; Opinions are like...um... let's just say we all have one so take them with a gran of salt....

[Alex Leslie]

I have a PC biscuit joiner that is a great tool. However, I do not use it for joinery anymore, now that I have a Domino. I use biscuits for aligning panel glue-ups because they are quick, cheap and easy to do, being careful to stay away from ends that I am going to trim or shape.

The Domino tenons offer far greater strength for joints. I built a large rail and stile panelled bar for my Elks Lodge (voluntarily) that was entirely joined with dominos rather than profiling the ends and edges of the rails & stiles as I would have done BD (Before Domino). It is "bulletproof."

As with all tasks, use the best tool for the job.

[Mike Cutler]

Joshua

Like all products, the biscuit has a place. The problem however came from the marketing campaign that tried to expand the capabilities of the biscuit to increase market share and profit by a specific company.
The biscuit is a "spline", and splines have been used in joinery forever. It's just a different type of spline.
Joints that are exposed to high shearload,axial, rotational, or torsional stresses are not candidates for a biscuit joint.

As for the Knock on Norm; I'm sorry, but it's a bunch of nonsense.
Norm's show is not about making authentic reproduction period pieces. Norm's show is to encourage, and demonstrate that the "average" DIY'r can in fact make servicable furniture and projects for their own use, utilizing modern tooling and techniques, in a time expedient manner. It's not about making reproduction period show pieces for museums, and conservation societies.

[Dan Gill]

Just use the technique you like.

[Howard Acheson]

>> The purists will say they are not acceptable for Heirloom pieces, but then if the old time cabinet makers had been able to get them they probably would have used them.

And I would ask the "purist" are dowels acceptable in "heirloom" pieces?

[Sean Nagle]

The biscuit is a "spline", and splines have been used in joinery forever. It's just a different type of spline.
Joints that are exposed to high shearload,axial, rotational, or torsional stresses are not candidates for a biscuit joint.

Mike is absolutely right. A biscuit makes sense where you would normally use a spline [or a stub tenon which is really a spline]. You don't use biscuits where a real mortise and tenon joint is required.

As the Domino makes quick-and-dirty loose tenon joints, the biscuit joiner makes quick-and-dirty splines.

[John Pratt]

I think the whole argument against Biscuits or any number of new techniques is specious at best. I learned woodworking from my Grandfather who taught me to use hand planes, hand saws, brace and bit, etc… I know how to use the Neanderthal tools and enjoy them, but technology has given me the ability to expand my abilities using new and innovative tools. The argument about “true” reproductions doesn’t change the fact that it is a reproduction. Some would say they are appalled at the use of modern techniques, but just try to take away that 5hp TS or 8” jointer.

The hits on Norm make me laugh all the time (I am a big fan of his ability to bring woodworking to the masses). These are the same people who extol praise and wonderment on Sam Maloof (who I am also a big fan of) who used (GASP!!) screws in some of his joinery.

I make a living at carpentry, woodworking, and metal work. I don’t concern myself with whether my pieces are an exact match to some 200 year old highboy. I am a big believer that the reason these pieces have value is that they are very well made given the technology of the time. You can bet your 14” BS they would love to have the tools you have access to. They would love to have your central heat and air, electric lights, running water, and pick-up truck too. Now my pieces may never grace the stage at Sotheby’s auction house or even the back page of FWW, but I think any woodworker can take pride in knowing they made a quality product doing something they love to do no matter what tool or sound technique.

[Curt Harms]

was for quick joining of sheet goods, e.g. "euro" construction. I guess you could do mortise and tenon joinery on mdf case goods but......

Below is an excerpt from Wikipedia. Note the reference to chip board.
History

The biscuit joining system is a recent development, having been invented in 1956 in Liestal Switzerland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland) by Hermann Steiner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Steiner). Steiner opened his carpenters shop in 1944 and in the middle of the 50’s, whilst looking for a simple means of joining the recently introduced chipboard, invented almost by accident the now world-famous Lamello Joining System. In the succeeding years there followed further developments such as the circular saw and the first stationary biscuit (plate) joining machine in 1956 followed by the first portable biscuit joiner for Lamello grooves in 1968. In 1969 the family operation was incorporated by the name of Lamello AG.
American Tool Manufacturer Porter Cable produces a Biscuit Joiner with interchangeable blades, enabling the user to cut both 4" and 2" biscuit slots.

[lowell holmes]

As far as alignment goes, 4 or 5 grains of sharp sand in the glue joint as clamping takes place will keep the joint aligned. Am I the only one that read tthis somewhere 10 years ago an tried it?

[Brent Leonard]

I am often worried when people commend on 'reproductions' especially where norm is concerned. He is not trying to duplicate the original but showing techniques that in this day and age can be used to make such pieces.....

.....We pay homage by reproducing masterfully made furniture and using more modern materials/glues in my opinion no way detracts from that.

I agree 100%.

Norm has an obvious love for antique pieces (which I also share). I think it is also apparent he enjoys reproducing an object he finds beautiful. He uses modern techniques. So what!!??!!
I think those who want to build a period piece using period techniques is fine too. It is a personal love and that person gains personal enjoyment and satisfaction when reproducing as many aspects of a piece as possible, including the techniques used to build it. I look at it like the guy who ties his own flies to catch trout on. I buy my flies, but still catch fish. Is he a better fisherman or more a "purist"? No, he just has one more hobby than I do, fly tying.

There is a deffinate difference in a "reproduction" and a "forgery". (For lack of a better term, "forgery" is not used in a criminal or deceptive sense)

Norm builds reproductions of the piece, not the techniques. Nothing wrong with that. Millions of people seem to agree, based on his longevity and popularity.

[Stephen Edwards]

I like biscuits for aligning boards in long glue ups. As others have mentioned, one must be careful to plan and mark the location of the biscuit in the assembly so that you don't cut through one.

While I have great respect for those who have the skills, patience and desire to use the materials and techniques of fine WWs of days gone by, it simply isn't an issue with me. It's whatever floats your boat or trips your trigger that counts.

[Noah Katz]

I'm surprised no one has acknowledged this post, which points out the error in asserting that biscuits add no strength.


Refer to the joint strength article in FWW #148. For the type of joint they test (mortise-tenon, floating mortise, double biscuit butt joint) the biscuit joint is about 45% of the strength of the mortise-tenon joint. The test is rather limited, but does give an indication of the shear strength of a biscuited joint as a butt joint with glue only would be rather weak.

Birch has a shear strength of 840 - 2240 psi parallel to the grain http://www.briggs-ewp.com/page/ybstrength.htm

If we take the average (~1540 psi) and take the approximate area of a #20 biscuit is ~.20 in^2 so a single biscuit would be expected to take ~300 lbf. This strength is hardly insignificant.

[Cody Colston]

I think that the "biscuits add no strength" mantra is simply repeated by the anti-biscuit crowd with no factual information to support it.

I have a biscuit joiner and occassionally use it. There are times and situations where a stronger joint is not needed and biscuit joinery is too easy to discard simply because it is distained by some. I also use Minwax wipe-on poly as a finish sometimes and think it's a great product...so there. :D

As for "reproduction pieces", I really like the method that Glen Huey uses. He employs a combination of modern power tools and hand tools to build his pieces because that's what he has available. They are just as attractive as those built using period methods and in many cases, may outlast the period pieces.

Would I use biscuit joinery on a reproduction or modern interpretation of a period piece?...probably not but I also wouldn't leave the hidden portions of a contemporary piece as rough as those 18th Century masters did, either...nor would my clients stand for it. So, that knife cuts both ways, IMHO.

[Mike Henderson]

Regarding reproductions, there are problems with the way some of that old furniture was made. For example, many old case pieces have splits in the sides because our ancestors nailed molding cross grain to the case. As the wood of the case shrunk, it split because the molding was strong enough to hold it apart.

Knowing that, why would you build a piece of furniture using those exact same techniques?

What I tell people is to take a piece of furniture you like and make what you think that builder would have done next (especially taking wood movement into account). In other words, don't copy but try to extend the design and put some of yourself into your furniture.

Mike

[george wilson]

I didn't say I never used biscuits. I just don't use them on serious projects that I get a lot of money for.

There can be no doubt that biscuits do add some strength to what otherwise would be a simple butt joint,especially if you put a lot of them into a long joint. How could they not add strength? They increase the glue area,and the biscuits themselves are made with their grain at an angle so they can't just snap off.

There also can be no doubt that they are NOT s viable substitute for full length spline joints.

So,if it's something I need for the house,I might use biscuits. Not on something the customer is paying a lot for.

[Russ Cass]

>> The purists will say they are not acceptable for Heirloom pieces, but then if the old time cabinet makers had been able to get them they probably would have used them.

And I would ask the "purist" are dowels acceptable in "heirloom" pieces?Exactly, if they had biscuits 200 years ago, they would have used them.

[Chip Lindley]

..."there is the argument that many of the modern techniques of biscuit joinery, pocket screws, dovetail router jigs and loose tenons are often used as a shortcut to learning how to do the traditional methods of mortise and tenons, handsawn dovetails, and traditional drawer construction..."

David, you confuse those afficianados who embrace period methods of furniture construction with those in this forum who enjoy "playing with their tools" every bit as much as actually constructing. Threads in this forum are as much about "which power tool" as "which technique"!

Those who embrace the use of hand tools only are "neanderthal" purists, and reside in another forum entirely. Their output by today's standards is meager at best. Hand work takes time and expertise which can only be afforded, much less appreciated, by very few.

Let us remember that Norm is as much a vehicle for advertising new power tools for companies who underwrite his PBS program, as he is to instruct "woodworkers" how to make home projects.

If one's object is to produce an authentic period piece, (for self for or a client of means) faithful in detail down to "secret recipe" shellac and home-cooked hide glue, cudos and good luck. If, however, you only have an hour of air time, and care only for the illusion of a period piece, you will use Norm's power tools!

[David Keller NC]

"Regarding reproductions, there are problems with the way some of that old furniture was made. For example, many old case pieces have splits in the sides because our ancestors nailed molding cross grain to the case. As the wood of the case shrunk, it split because the molding was strong enough to hold it apart.

Knowing that, why would you build a piece of furniture using those exact same techniques?"

Actually, yes indeed. And that is simply because I don't aim for perfection. In fact, this is often the problem I see with modern reproductions of pieces from the age of handwork. They are just that - perfect in almost everyway, and as a result, are pretty cold and sterile.

However, that's for a colonial reproduction. It would be just as inappropriate for me to take out my hand planes, chisels and hatchet and make a Stickley arts and crafts piece that exhibit totally inappropriate tool marks.

While I realize that this view is not popular, the results of the methods used to make a piece are every bit a part of an authentic reproduction as wood selection, design, and construction. And these aren't intended for a museum - they are intended for people's homes that place a high value on colonial antiques but either do not have several million dollars (and several thousand dollars a year necessary for insurance), or the prefer not to be concerned with the potential cultural loss that might occur with a child deciding to paint grandma's highboy with pink paint.

And I don't want to give anyone the wrong idea - I watch Norm every Saturday without fail, and enjoy his show and respect him immensely for introducing many to the craft. But it is not true that he doesn't call his pieces "reproductions" - he does, and that's not accurate. What he makes are modern period representations, and that is not an insignificant nor only semantic difference.

Just to illustrate why I and a whole lot of others think this way, consider extremes - you make a very nice Boston highboy entirely out of plywood (except for the legs - I'm not sure that's possible). The piece required hundreds of hours, and is beautiful to look at because very high-quality veneer was chosen, and is considerably more stable and sturdy than the original to boot. Is it a nice piece of furniture that is highly functional and beautiful to look at?, and has the maker accomplished something significant? absolutely. Is it a reproduction? absolutely not.

And by the way guys - I own and use a biscuit joiner, a DeWalt. Just not on a period reproduction.

[Mike Henderson]

I understand what you're saying, David, but you can't even get the same mahogany that was used back in the 1700s (well, I suppose you might find some but it would be extremely expensive).

And once you lose one aspect of the reproduction, it's no longer a reproduction.

But I think you're splitting hairs. Some people may want to make a piece that looks like an old piece but use modern tools and they may want to call it a "reproduction". That's okay as far as I'm concerned.

I go further and make whatever design changes I want to make - both to correct design flaws in the original, and because I like the way I designed it better.

But I understand you're trying to please a customer and you should definitely do what the customer is paying for.

Mike

[Perhaps what you're saying is that the definition of "reproduction" is how well (or how long) you could fool an expert on antique furniture. The longer you could fool someone, the better the reproduction. But that just creates a spectrum of reproductions, from 1 second reproductions, to infinity reproductions.]

[David Keller NC]

I understand what you're saying, David, but you can't even get the same mahogany that was used back in the 1700s (well, I suppose you might find some but it would be extremely expensive).

That's actually not true. There were indeed pieces that were made of Cuban mahogany, but these don't represent even the majority of pieces made of mahogany, most of which were made of big-leaf or Hondurna mahogany. And walnut, maple, and cherry represent a large fraction, and perhaps even the majority, of colonial pieces. Even birch, red bay, cedar, and cypress pieces weren't uncommon.


And once you lose one aspect of the reproduction, it's no longer a reproduction.

Correct, which is why many of us in SAPFM do not wish to lose any aspects of the originals.


But I think you're splitting hairs. Some people may want to make a piece that looks like an old piece but use modern tools and they may want to call it a "reproduction". That's okay as far as I'm concerned.

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but this does not change the fact that what you describe are not reproductions. Labels do matter, because they form the common basis for definitions. Without a clear statement of what those labels mean, the potential value assigned to what is being discussed becomes blurred. In fact, modern marketing depends on it - much of what we're told is "just as good as, but far cheaper" isn't at all, whether it be lumber, power tools, hand tools, or even food.[/quote]


[Perhaps what you're saying is that the definition of "reproduction" is how well (or how long) you could fool an expert on antique furniture. The longer you could fool someone, the better the reproduction. But that just creates a spectrum of reproductions, from 1 second reproductions, to infinity reproductions.]

Actually, that was probably a poor analogy on my part meant to concisely explain what the objective is. I honestly don't really care, because what I build is not "aged" - it would fool no one from the standpoint of believing that something I've made is 200 years old. In my case, what I seek to make is what someone could buy if they walked into a shop in Philadelphia 225 years ago, down to surface finishes, proportions, wood choices, fuzzy dimensions and all. I took me only once to make a piece both with my machine tools and totally with hand tools to realize what how radical the difference is, though that quality that is obvious in person is often obscured in photographs.

[Mike Henderson]

So are you saying that unless everything is exactly the same as the original, it's not a reproduction?

That if there's even the slightest deviation it can't be called a reproduction?

Or how much deviation would you allow and still call it a reproduction?

And who's going to set that standard? Maybe there should be some committee who examines each potential reproduction and gives the ones they approve a seal of approval.

Mike

[Personally, I let people call things what they want to.]

[David Keller NC]

Yes, but the problem with that standard is that things purchased at Rooms to Go can be called "furniture".:D

[Larry Feltner]

I can't completely agree with the arguments that reproduction furniture must follow the same techniques used in the original. Reproduction of the furniture means to reproduce the design, the look, if you will, of the furniture. What some on here are talking about is reproduction of the technique used to produce the furniture. In my opinion they are two different things. You can create a reproduction of the original with out reproducing the techniques.

[Mike Henderson]

If people want to call it that, I don't object. It's their decision.

But you can see the problem with trying to "enforce" some definition of "reproduction". People differ on what a reproduction is. And their opinion is just as valid as yours.

Mike

[Peter Quinn]

I think the assertion that biscuits add no strength is generally used relative to long grain glue ups, and I believe this to be true. In fact I seem to recall that given the strength of modern glues biscuits actually WEAKEN a long grain glue up by reducing glue surface. Can't seem to find that evidence, maybe someone more organized knows the source?

There can be no doubt that biscuits add strength to butt joints. My television sits on a stand made almost entirely with biscuits, pocket hole screws, and some glue. Its a 2 1/2 hour build version of some POS the LOML wanted to buy from Crap and Barrel for $300. Theirs is "mahogany stain", mine is made of actual mahogany, funny how little "stain" you need to make mahogany look like mahogany. I made it in a real hurry to hold the new flat panel that was purchased in a real hurry when my little boy almost toppled the big ole tube TV onto himself. I did not have time to mortise anything. I probably wouldn't park the car on it or practice clog dancing either. But it holds the TV just fine.

[Dan Karachio]

Let us remember that Norm is as much a vehicle for advertising new power tools for companies who underwrite his PBS program, as he is to instruct "woodworkers" how to make home projects.


Chip, I'd like to politely check you on a few points. Norm is hardly a commercial animal. By contrast some of the new breed gurus are blatant prostitutes and have limited skills. If you disagree, please don't shout, "whisper" instead please.

Norm's underwriters are limited and actually in some jeopardy. Second, you never ever see a mfg label on any of this tools in the show (including his biscuit joiners). He does this on purpose. There was an interview with him recently, maybe Shop Notes?, that covered this and more.

[Harlan Coverdale]

[snip] This is not for everyone, but my personal goal is to have all of what I make absolutely indistinguishable to all but an expert equipped with an extremely accurate carbon dating machine 100 or so years from now. I will say, however, that I started out just as most did - with table saws and sandpaper. I simply came to realize along the way that a windsor chair made from sawn instead of split spindles, a glued-up seat and purchased legs isn't a Windsor chair - it's simply a nice modern representation.

I acknowledge and admire your conviction to be faithful in your reproduction of period pieces, but you must realize that you are a rarity among woodworkers. I suspect that for you, like many of us here, the pleasure with woodworking is in the journey at least as much as the destination. That's fine, but recognize that your viewpoint is indeed uncommon.

We all travel to some extent. Most of us prefer to go places by car, but some still would rather use horses and carts. That's cool, but the horse and cart guys shouldn't claim to be the only ones who arrive at their destination, in my opinion.

And I would agree with Mike's point about this being a matter of semantics. I doubt you're going to change the rules under which people call a piece of furniture a "reproduction" vs. a "representation".

I don't use biscuits much, since I don't build many things where they would be of help. That said, I personally don't care if a piece uses strictly traditional techniques or not. What I do care about is if the piece is well-constructed and aesthetic. It's apparent, based on David's posts, there there are paying customers who do care if a piece is authentically made, but I suspect they are a rare breed themselves, much like David.

[Noah Katz]

"In fact I seem to recall that given the strength of modern glues biscuits actually WEAKEN a long grain glue up by reducing glue surface. Can't seem to find that evidence, maybe someone more organized knows the source?"

Biscuits increase glue surface.

The area of the slot is taken away, but the much larger area of both sides of the biscuit is added.

Additionally, the load is better distributed by being carried into the depth of the wood rather than just on the surface.

[george wilson]

They are bound to add strength. You would have to tear them asunder to get the edge glued plank apart.

[Wayne Cannon]

Ok, I understand that for edge-glued panels, the glue is stronger than the wood, so the biscuits don't add anything other than alignment.

However, for end-grain joints, such as joining a table skirt to the legs, biscuits add significant strength. All of the tests I've read in the past decade (about a half-dozen) rank joint strength in the following order -- mortise and tenon, single biscuit, double dowel, and double pocket screw; with mortise and tenon significantly stronger than biscuits, and pocket screw significantly weaker. In one test, dowel joints tested stronger than biscuits. There was always a significant strength difference between mortise and tenon joints and biscuit joints, but two parallel biscuits narrowed the gap with the mortise and tenon substantially.

An interesting note: With the exception of the pocket screws, which simply pulled out, I've noticed that almost all of the failures were predominantly in the side walls surrounding the joinery device rather than the device itself.

[David Keller NC]

"I acknowledge and admire your conviction to be faithful in your reproduction of period pieces, but you must realize that you are a rarity among woodworkers. I suspect that for you, like many of us here, the pleasure with woodworking is in the journey at least as much as the destination. That's fine, but recognize that your viewpoint is indeed uncommon."

Actually, Folks on this forum that build furniture are a rarity among woodworkers. I've come to realize over the years of seeing what local woodworking stores prefer to stock, what catalogs consider their most popular items, and what is most discussed at local woodworking clubs tends to be fairly easy, quick projects, such as bandsawn boxes, knicknack shelves, pens, etc... Absolutely nothing wrong with that - I spent several days in the shop making some of those hand-helicopter things for my 3 year old nephew's birthday.

However, I'd say that observations of what most woodworkers make, or the methods that they use to make them, aren't all that relevant. I could, for example, draw a valid conclusion that musical instrument making is a "fringe" activity among woodworkers.


"We all travel to some extent. Most of us prefer to go places by car, but some still would rather use horses and carts. That's cool, but the horse and cart guys shouldn't claim to be the only ones who arrive at their destination, in my opinion."

This bears addressing, though I'm quite aware that I'm not going to convince, or even influence, anyone. This is a really common misconception that is wholly incorrect. There are certain hand tools that are far more efficient than a powered equivalent method, and it is this realization that is driving a lot of the resurgence of interest in hand tool techniques and hand tool manufacturers. The use of some of these techniques is not the equivalent of "horse and buggy" transportation, because they do indeed produce a different result than a powered method.

But again, and I think someone could only be convinced by either doing it themselves, or having it demonstrated to them - the use of certain techniques and materials has a tangible, visible effect on the final product. This is not simply a disagreement over techniques and the pros/cons of each - the final product is quite different, and is very visible, perhaps even obvious.

[John Thompson]

I have a biscuit joiner.. I have a pocke hole cutter, I don't use either. If I decide to re-do my kithchen cabinets I would consider using them. I build carcass work in mainly the A & C style and prefer M & T's, bridle joints.. etc. I design my own for the most part and am not concerned with reproduction of original pieces.

I have nothing against bicuit joiners but... I was trained to do hand joinery when I started and just prefer to do it as I get much satisfaction from doing it that way and there is no doubt about strenght. I could care less if someone else used a BJ or pocket screws but.. I do think that the extensive availibility and use of them leads to not taking the time to learn the skill of hand joinery and many will miss the fun because of it but.. that is their choice.

[Mike Henderson]

Actually, Folks on this forum that build furniture are a rarity among woodworkers. I've come to realize over the years of seeing what local woodworking stores prefer to stock, what catalogs consider their most popular items, and what is most discussed at local woodworking clubs tends to be fairly easy, quick projects, such as bandsawn boxes, knicknack shelves, pens, etc... Absolutely nothing wrong with that - I spent several days in the shop making some of those hand-helicopter things for my 3 year old nephew's birthday.

However, I'd say that observations of what most woodworkers make, or the methods that they use to make them, aren't all that relevant. I could, for example, draw a valid conclusion that musical instrument making is a "fringe" activity among woodworkers.

Hummm, first it was that nobody on this forum (or very few) made proper reproductions. Now it's nobody on this forum (or very few) makes furniture.

Interesting.

Mike

[David Keller NC]

Hummm, first it was that nobody on this forum (or very few) made proper reproductions. Now it's nobody on this forum (or very few) makes furniture.

Interesting.

Mike

That's not what I wrote, though there's no doubt that the written word leaves something when communicating. Perhaps a better way to put it is "the folks on this forum" (who build furniture) are a rarity among woodworkers.

And it's not at all that "very few woodworkers make "proper" reproductions - if you read through my posts, it should be clear that I don't think that what folks make aren't "proper", "useful" or "to be admired" - they are all of those things. And I make lots of things that aren't reproductions.

What my posts were aimed at was pointing out that the use of the term "reproduction", when applied to a piece from the age of handwork that is made with modern means, surfaces, and materials isn't proper - they are modern representations.

But I think you know this - argumentation is such fun.:)

[Matt Meiser]

My own feelings on this issue--I'll build what I want, how I want it. Well, as long as I can convince my wife. :) Its a hobby to me. For a while I got caught up in needing to do things the "right" way and nearly left the hobby because it wasn't fun anymore.

So if you want to use biscuits, and you feel they will meet the needs of your project (or are willing to learn from your mistakes) then go for it. Heck, if you want to use drywall screws and BORG 2x4's, that's what you should do!

[george wilson]

Mike and David,my posting of the spinning wheel flyers was a "proper reproduction",but I didn't use biscuits in it:)

[Rick Gifford]

Didnt Sam Maloof use metal screws and even crotch wood?... whos to say whats right or not. I use biscuits. Great for alignment. Easy to use.

[Stephen Edwards]

This is a very interesting thread to me. Though I have no personal interest, myself, in the purist approach to building reproductions, I do appreciate and understand those people who have decided to follow that path. It just ain't my thing nor is it something that many others on this forum concern themselves with.

I enjoy building a few pieces from that past that would now be called "primitive" pieces, though I don't do anything to "age" them or even to make them look exactly like a home made piece that was built 100 or more years ago. In fact, I'm thankful to have modern tools (including biscuits sometimes!) to use when building them. I just happen to like the designs and simplicity of many of these old tables, benches, cupboards, etc.

They aren't intended to be reproductions nor do I advertise them to be. When I build these pieces I frequently think of them as "contemporary primitives". I've often thought that perhaps I should advertise my sideline woodworking business as Oxymoron Woodworking. At least the moron part would be correct!

[Mike Henderson]

That's not what I wrote, though there's no doubt that the written word leaves something when communicating. Perhaps a better way to put it is "the folks on this forum" (who build furniture) are a rarity among woodworkers.

And it's not at all that "very few woodworkers make "proper" reproductions - if you read through my posts, it should be clear that I don't think that what folks make aren't "proper", "useful" or "to be admired" - they are all of those things. And I make lots of things that aren't reproductions.

What my posts were aimed at was pointing out that the use of the term "reproduction", when applied to a piece from the age of handwork that is made with modern means, surfaces, and materials isn't proper - they are modern representations.

But I think you know this - argumentation is such fun.:)
And the point I'm making is that there's no agreed upon definition of "proper reproduction". It seems that the only definition is "It's what I make and not what you make".

Until there's some agreed upon definition, if somebody wants to say they make reproductions, I'll say "Good for you - keep at it and post pictures."

Mike

[John M Bailey]

I thought I might take the time to read this complete thread carefully and come up with a thoughtful, witty response reflecting my views on the subject. But, I do not have time, I am headed to my shop to finish my son's new bedroom furniture.

[Randall Clark]

If you want to take my biscuit joiner away from me, you'll have to pry it from my cold, dead hands!





Wait . . . I'm sorry. I thought this was the NRA forum. Never mind.

[Cary Falk]

WOW, I guess I should sell all of my power tools because I am not worthy to make woodworking my hobby. I didn't realize that I am lazy because I don't take the time to learn the proper use of hand tools. I call it efficient. Lets all grab a stone and tie it to a stick and use that. That's where it started, right?

"Authentic reproduction" by definition an oxymoron. It is a term made up by the elitist, I mean the purest. I have a biscuit jointer. I don't use it all the time, but it comes in handy. I have seen several edge joints fail at the glue line. A biscuit would have prevented that. Who GARA about a joint that nobody is going to see if it holds up.

Well, I'm off to "play" with my tools since that's all I'm qualified to do.

[Leigh Betsch]

I'm getting so confused. :confused: I don't know if I should if I should head down the road with my draft horse and my ax to start on a reproduction or if I should head out to the shop turn on the electric lights and blast a few biscuits into something and wait for it to fall apart. Sorry just trying to poke a little fun.
For what its worth, I use biscuits when I want alignment. Woodworking is such a great sport, room for everyone no matter how they like to work, or what they like to build.

[Ron Bontz]

Hmmm. This has been an interesting topic. My idea of an "Authentic Reproduction" is using the same type of joinery, finish and glue as the originals. Hence I do not make repos. As far as biscuits.... I use them from time to time depending on what I am gluing up. I usually use reversible glue joint bits or 3/8" tongue and groove on long grain glue ups. Router table or shaper. It is almost as fast and it helps with line up. In the end you make do with what you have. :)

[Brian Effinger]

From Webster's dictionary:




Main Entry: re·pro·duc·tion
Pronunciation: \ˌrē-prə-ˈdək-shən\
Function: noun
Date: 1659
1 : the act or process of reproducing (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reproducing); specifically : the process by which plants and animals give rise to offspring and which fundamentally consists of the segregation of a portion of the parental body by a sexual or an asexual process and its subsequent growth and differentiation into a new individual
2 : something reproduced (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reproduced) : copy (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/copy)
3 : young seedling trees in a forest
synonyms reproduction (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reproduction), duplicate (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/duplicate), copy (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/copy), facsimile (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/facsimile), replica (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/replica) mean a thing made to closely resemble another. reproduction (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reproduction) implies an exact or close imitation of an existing thing <reproductions from the museum's furniture collection>. duplicate (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/duplicate) implies a double or counterpart exactly corresponding to another thing <a duplicate of a house key>. copy (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/copy) applies especially to one of a number of things reproduced mechanically <printed 1000 copies of the lithograph>. facsimile (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/facsimile) suggests a close reproduction often of graphic matter that may differ in scale <a facsimile of a rare book>. replica (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/replica) implies the exact reproduction of a particular item in all details <a replica of the Mayflower> but not always in the same scale <miniature replicas of classic cars>.

Reproduction implies an exact or close imitation of an existing thing. Duplicate implies a double or counterpart exactly corresponding to another thing.

[Sean Nagle]

My mother-in-law was an antiques dealer for the better part of 40 years. In their vernacular, a reproduction is a piece "in the style of" an original. A piece that would take an expert to distinguish from the original is considered "a copy".

[Chip Lindley]

I've heard New Yankee Workshop has undergone some changes. I am not privy to them presently because my satellite tv package doesn't include PBS.

Don't get me wrong, I like Norm! But at one point, say 10 years ago, biscuit joiners not withstanding, Norm was bent on attaching everything (but a butt joint) with a nail gun! I was a bit put off by it all. And if i'm not mistaken, labels were very much in evidence then.

No doubt PBS' non-profit status caused them to take exception to the advertising created by Tool Brands being flaunted before the camera each week. Underwriters afterall, benevolently contribute money for a worthy cause. Underwriters get only the benefit of the good will created when their name is mentioned at the beginning and ending of each program.

Accordingly, it is no wonder NYW is in financial difficulty. Consumer tool companies insist on more than just a brief mention to get their bang for the philanthropic buck! ....Ahh, IF only Bill and Melinda Gates were woodworkers....

[Cody Colston]

No doubt PBS' non-profit status caused them to take exception to the advertising created by Tool Brands being flaunted before the camera each week.

I don't recall ever seeing tool brand names displayed on the NYW...I believe they have always been hidden per PBS guidelines.

You are right about the show being in a bit of trouble, though. In the recent WOOD article about Norm, he said that Delta-PC was their only remaining underwriter.

That's about how it goes, though. Shows like "Barney" or "Clifford the Big Red Dog" will continue to be aired while the NYW will die of natural causes...lack of funding.

Our PBS station (KERA Dallas/Ft. Worth) pre-empts NYW so often that I only get to record one or two episodes a month already. Bummer.

[Billy Chambless]

One of the reviewers said he could have no respect for anyone who used biscuits in joinery.

That's just silly.

fwiw, I don't use them, but gimme a break. "No respect"?

[David Keller NC]

I've heard New Yankee Workshop has undergone some changes. I am not privy to them presently because my satellite tv package doesn't include PBS.

Don't get me wrong, I like Norm! But at one point, say 10 years ago, biscuit joiners not withstanding, Norm was bent on attaching everything (but a butt joint) with a nail gun! I was a bit put off by it all. And if i'm not mistaken, labels were very much in evidence then.

No doubt PBS' non-profit status caused them to take exception to the advertising created by Tool Brands being flaunted before the camera each week. Underwriters afterall, benevolently contribute money for a worthy cause. Underwriters get only the benefit of the good will created when their name is mentioned at the beginning and ending of each program.

Accordingly, it is no wonder NYW is in financial difficulty. Consumer tool companies insist on more than just a brief mention to get their bang for the philanthropic buck! ....Ahh, IF only Bill and Melinda Gates were woodworkers....

I'm rather hoping that financial difficulties of Norm's show will work itself out according to the economy gradually improving. My guess is that the WW machine tool companies (as well as the handtool companies) have seen a steep decline in sales as all consumers pulled back on spending, and they were looking to cut advertising expenses as much as possible.

My guess is that will be a temporary situation. While the rules of PBS are a bit stricter than those followed by WW magazines, most folks I know are well aware that Norm's show is sponsored by Delta and Porter Cable (who's now part of Black and Decker, I think). I've been told before that most of the high dollar machines in Norm's shop were gifts, though the giver knew that logos would be blocked out.

It sure would be a depressing Saturday in the fall without back-to-back episodes of The New Yankee Workshop and The Woodwright's shop. :(

[Dan Karachio]

Thanks for the info Dave and for staying out of the kitty scratching. Norm is certainly not the pinnacle of wood working craft, but come on, biscuit joinery or not, the guy pioneered so much and has a show that has probably motivated and inspired more people into woodworking than anyone else, certainly more influence than the snobby critics. That certainly benefits all of us with a broader consumer market to support the design, building and sale of so many new tools, both power and hand. As for joinery and brads, anyone who really gets into woodworking will certainly discover other methods include more authentic ones - I mean they aren't just going to watch Norm are they?

It's so easy to critique without having anything to offer. So if you don't like it, go make your own damn show and see who will pay for it let alone watch it.

[Cody Colston]

it's so easy to critique without having anything to offer. So if you don't like it, go make your own damn show and see who will pay for it let alone watch it.

Hear, Hear

[John Coloccia]

I suppose everyone that makes reproductions uses no power tools, transports their wood by horse and buggy, and works by oil lamp?

Bah. Biscuits are nice. They make large glue ups much easier. The point of a reproduction for most folks is to get the style they like, as opposed to the horrid, bulky, tacky nonsense that most places are passing off as furniture these days. If someone can get me great styling and class with modern construction techniques, then all the better.

Norm's done great things for amateur wood workers across the world. What have his critics contributed, other than hot air? Thought so.

Use biscuits, or don't use them, but they should lay off Norm.

[David Keller NC]

Thanks for the info Dave and for staying out of the kitty scratching. Norm is certainly not the pinnacle of wood working craft, but come on, biscuit joinery or not, the guy pioneered so much and has a show that has probably motivated and inspired more people into woodworking than anyone else, certainly more influence than the snobby critics. That certainly benefits all of us with a broader consumer market to support the design, building and sale of so many new tools, both power and hand. As for joinery and brads, anyone who really gets into woodworking will certainly discover other methods include more authentic ones - I mean they aren't just going to watch Norm are they?

It's so easy to critique without having anything to offer. So if you don't like it, go make your own damn show and see who will pay for it let alone watch it.

I'm afraid what I was trying to communicate got a little lost in Mike's paraphrasing of what I wrote. I very much like and respect Norm Abram. Anyone that has had such a committment to Public Television and teaching, and has impoverished himslef relative to what he could've done by product endorsements, books, etc... is to be commended, not least for what you noted. I myself was instruduced to the WW hobby by Norm and Roy. Without them, I'd have just stayed with being the toy maker of the family, a mantle that was passed down from my Grandfater.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm afraid what I was trying to communicate got a little lost in Mike's paraphrasing of what I wrote. I very much like and respect Norm Abram. Anyone that has had such a committment to Public Television and teaching, and has impoverished himslef relative to what he could've done by product endorsements, books, etc... is to be commended, not least for what you noted. I myself was instruduced to the WW hobby by Norm and Roy. Without them, I'd have just stayed with being the toy maker of the family, a mantle that was passed down from my Grandfater.
Just to be clear, I'm sure I never said a word about Norm and whether David liked or didn't like him or anything else in that area.

My comments were regarding the elitist attitude some people take to making furniture based on antiques - that there's only one way to do it that's proper.

Mike

[J.R. Rutter]

biscuits and pocket screws = git er done

laughable in a reproduction though

[David Keller NC]

"My comments were regarding the elitist attitude some people take to making furniture based on antiques - that there's only one way to do it that's proper."

That's not an accurate paraphrase either, at least of what I wrote. There are an inifite number of methods and materials used to make furniture, and the final results are often quite nice (I posted something to this effect earlier in the thread). Would you consider Mack Headley an "elitist"?

[Bill White]

Just my opinion.......
We've beat this mule to death.
Bill :o

[John M Bailey]

What did I miss? I've been in the shop doing woodwork.

[Billy Chambless]

What did I miss? I've been in the shop doing woodwork.


Then you didn't miss anything. ;)

[Sean Nagle]

What did I miss? I've been in the shop doing woodwork.

Had you been using biscuits, you would have been done in time to join the scrum :)

[David Keller NC]

Just my opinion.......
We've beat this mule to death.
Bill :o

Indeed. That's enough for me. But I suspect the OP got his question answered - at least the controversy part!:D

[Larry Lukens]

I'm pretty sure of two things: mortise and tenon joints are stronger than biscuits; and we aren't supposed to use hide glue on biscuit joints, because hide glue is reserved for reproduction purists.

Well, I'm OK with that. I'm content to stick my loose tenons into mortises with TiteBond.;)

I, too, recall the FWW article on joint strength. There are lots of applications where biscuits are good enough.

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Thanks to one and all for the replies. Sorry I didn't respond earlier. I had my computer die both at home and here at work. How is that for timing?!!? :mad:

I had my machine and work cook itself to death. The video card, HD and memory all died. At home it was limited to the HD's installed in the machine but still how frustrating is that?!!?

I wanted to say thanks to everyone for helping me understand. I had not actually seen the video that someone linked to here early on. When I watched the stress failures on the joints I was amazed. Such differences in strength. Wow!

For me personally I am not a purist. I am not trying to copy older furniture in such a way that no one could ever tell the difference. (Tho I can see why people would want too as it is very cool and a serious art!) I am just interested in making good solid furniture for my family and friends. Stuff that is durable, good looking if possible, and just simple not... particle board. I have a bone deep loathing for that stuff after seeing my parents buy it for the bulk of my lifetime.

So I have been looking at plans and tools and having some fun trying to figure it out to some extent before getting started. In the case of these biscuit joints I was mostly curious to know if they were worth using.

It seems the general response is "good for lining things up but doesn't add any real differences in strength." Which makes sense. I had planned to use mortise and tenon work for almost everything. The situation I was thinking about was when making side or top panels for things and glueing up jointed boards. I am not sure if I will get one or not at this point to try using them. But I have a ton more information than I used too and I really appreciate that!

Thanks a Million!
Joshua

[Bob Wingard]

I personally do not subscribe to the "alignment only - no added strength" ideas, but I speak only from experience and mechanical aptitude.

If a joint is glued .. and that bond is stronger than the materials .. that is fine.

If you add a m&t to that joint .. most everyone agrees that it gains strength ..

If you add a spline to that joint .. it provides for the alignment element of a biscuit or a M&T joint, but if the grain runs parallel to the joint, no added strength is imparted.

If the spline's grain runs perpendicular to the mating surfaces, it becomes a kind of M&T joint and everyone is so happy that tremendous strength is gained.

Is a biscuit not a "piece" of a spline whose grain runs at an angle to the surfaces being joined ?? Kind of a hybrid spline/M&T ?? Now, it for sure won't be as strong as the "real" M&T, but it also will be something stronger than a weak spline whose grain is running parallel to the joint's surfaces.

I don't see how the lowly biscuit can be blamed for weakening a joint .. ANY joint unless severely misapplied (i.e. a #5 biscuit in slots cut for a #20)

That's just my point of view .. make it yours !!


<<<__ Bøb__>>>

[Chris Friesen]

If a joint is glued .. and that bond is stronger than the materials .. that is fine.

If you add a m&t to that joint .. most everyone agrees that it gains strength.

Glue bonds are stronger than wood only for long-grain to long-grain joints. In these circumstances, adding biscuits/splines/dominos generally only buy alignment, not strength. (There are exceptions where they are actually giving you cross-grain reinforcement, but these are rare.)

For end-grain to long-grain, a biscuit will be stronger than a butt joint, and is basically equivalent to a small stopped spline. A loose tenon is basically a big fat spline, and if fitted really well should be essentially equivalent to a same-sized m&t joint.