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Randy Bonella
09-03-2009, 2:00 AM
Before I get to my question: Hi all, I know this crowd will help me spend my money faster than I can make it... also I'm new to the creek and have been reading through many of the threads on Neandering. I'm relatively familiar with hand tools on paper but much less so in real life. Lately when I've been buying tools I want high quality and will pay for it. I've learned the hard way through cheap purchases that have made this artistic endeavor extremely difficult to say the least.

By way of introduction I have had a shop for 8 or so years here in Portland Oregon but have used it mostly for remodeling projects and the odd quick build home projects. I have a few pieces of equipment tailed: Jet cabinet Table saw, small bench drill press, Dust collector and the normal cadre of tailed tools used in the construction trade. Of the Neander type tools I have very few items that I consider worthy of mentioning the exceptions being a LN low angle block plane and it is sweeeeet! Norton stones for sharpening, LV and starrett items for measuring, an ever growing collection of clamps and now a real desire to get my shop setup to do some real wood working.

I've been facing a dilemma lately on what tools I need to start the progression towards a truly functional wood working studio. I've been tossing around the idea of purchasing more major tailed tools Band saw, planer and jointer at the same time I've been very seriously considering neander tools to do most of those jobs and I'm thinking the one exception to neandering replacement being a Band saw and I can even be talked out of that once I know my options.

So I was in the shop the other day working on a small table (my first piece of furniture) that will be used for a speaker stand and needed to clean up some edges and decided to pull out my few hand tools instead of the tailed types and wow, what a pleasant experience that was. Minimal setup, great control and surprising to me faster than using the tailed tool variety. That clinched it for me, I think I'm a neander type because the shavings that came off the LN block plane just felt good!!! no other way to state it.

A Build up to my question: I need to build a work bench first and foremost. After that I want to start building furniture. So to do this I need some planes to do the basics. The most enticing group of 3 I'm considering are the LV BU troika (1) BU Jointer (2) BU Jack (3) BU smoother and a scrub plane. While I love my LN block plane but I'm finding it a bit difficult to justify the cost of the LN planes even though I really like how they feel and the quality of the product and my penchant for keeping my money in the USA as of late. Prior to the decision to get hand planes over tailed tools I already have on my to buy list a LV medium shoulder plane which I need right now for my speaker table... and thats another story I'll post when I get some time. The decision on the LV over LN for the shoulder plane was due in part from numerous product reviews in FWW and other publications. Price delta between LN and LV is pretty minimal for this plane.

The question: are the 3 LV BU planes a good group to get started with along with the scrub and the med. shoulder? is there another plane grouping that would fit my initial needs better?

I can see myself in the future going after some old rust to restore or even purchased restored to flush out my other plane needs but for now will be looking for high quality fully functional equipment.

I'll have some chisel and saw questions in the not to distant future, but this should do it for now.

I'm looking forward to your wisdom and help.

Randy
http://picasaweb.google.com/rmbonella/WoodShop?authkey=Gv1sRgCPjg7dzB2LGRfw#

Matt Evans
09-03-2009, 2:44 AM
Well, based on the jig on the table saw, you do a bit of mortise and tenon work.

I have only ever used one LV plane, and that was the medium shoulder plane. High quality, and easy to use. You should be set with that purchase.

That being said, The four planes you mentioned, jointer, jack, smoother and scrub, are the essentials, since you already have the block plane. And really, as long as you get a quality product, sharpen properly, and fettle the plane properly, the brand name doesn't matter that much. I use shop made wood planes, old Stanleys and an ECE coffin smoother.

The only other plane I would recommend, going hand in hand with the medium shoulder plane, is a router plane. Easy to do tenon work with them, and great for fixing small problems in grooves and such.

Later, of course, you should get a plow plane, and do your drawer grooves with that. . .

"Hi all, I know this crowd will help me spend my money faster than I can make it..."

You are absolutly right. I could give you a list of planes and saws and braces and chisels and. . .And so could nearly everyone here.

Michael Faurot
09-03-2009, 4:05 AM
The question: are the 3 LV BU planes a good group to get started with along with the scrub and the med. shoulder?


That sounds like an excellent way to get started. I'd also suggest the addition of the other blades pre-ground to different angles, including the toothing blade. Depending upon your philosophy of sharpening, think about whether you want to deal with A1 or O1 tool steel. I personnally prefer the ease of getting an edge on O1 and would rather hone it more frequently.

I own the Veritas bevel-up jack along with the scrub and a few other Veritas tools. They're definitely quality tools that are a pleasure to use.

Sam Takeuchi
09-03-2009, 4:15 AM
Unless you are going to be doing some serious stock preparation and dimensioning, you won't need a scrub. If you can afford it without making a dent on your wallet, sure, it'll have its use at some point, but other than that, it's not a 'must have' plane.

I think LV BU Jointer/LA Jack/BU Smoother is a good set. They are wonderful planes and these can take care of the majority of flat planing needs.

Richard Magbanua
09-03-2009, 5:56 AM
Sounds like good choices to me. You can use a vintage plane for a scrub but if you got the cash then it comes in handy. I'm wanting a new scrub now after learning more about them and having to set up an old no 5 and its blade for that purpose.
The other thing to seriously consider early on is your sharpening situation. Regardless of the tools you get you have to be able to sharpen them well.
As far as the shoulder plane I purchased a LV med shoulder and realized I preferred the LN version. I returned it without any problems at all and got the LN. Very good companies to deal with.

John Keeton
09-03-2009, 7:36 AM
Randy, as a very satisfied owner of the LV BU trilogy, IMO there are no better choices for the basic planes used in the shop. I am sure I will draw fire for that statement, but as a newbie to the neander world, and as a hybrid worker as yourself, those planes (along with the block and shoulder planes) will do anything I want to do - and do it extremely well.

I do not have a scrub, and at this point, do not have the need. I joint my stock with a (gasp!) jointer, and surface it on my planer. What I am after with the planes are good fitting joints, handplanned surfaces, and minimal sanding. Your needs/wants may differ.

Michael makes a very good suggestion on the blades, and LV will let you order your planes with any of the three bevels if you specify. They informed me that they do not do custom angles. The toothed blade is on my short list of future purchases.

Ken Werner
09-03-2009, 8:03 AM
What Mr. Keeton says is absolutely correct. But there is a pleasure [for some] in having, tuning, and using old Stanley and similar planes. For quality, function, and value follow his advice. I have fun fiddling around with the old gems I find on rust hunts. Welcome to the Creek and the slippery slope of planedom.

I'm Ken, and I'm a planeaholic.

Heather Thompson
09-03-2009, 8:07 AM
Randy,

I took a six week woodworking program in Canada in 2005, on our lisit of required tools was a #4 smoothing plane, my husband bought me a Clifton as a gift. :) When I got to the program two of the instructors also used Clifton #4, they are excellent planes. When it came to fitting joints I did not have a shoulder plane but the other students were kind enough to lend me theirs when not being used, I got to test drive Lee Valley, Lie-Nielsen and a Clifton 410, I ended up purchasing the Clifton. I did buy a Lie-Nielsen #4 in bronze to get a high angle frog. This is a link to "The Best Things", they sell both Clifton and Lie-Nielsen planes and are great folks to do business with. http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/planes.htm
Have fun making shavings. :D

Heather

PS Welcome to the Creek, great group of people here, and yes we can help you spend money in a hurry.

Randy Bonella
09-03-2009, 11:35 AM
Thanks everyone for your input! To Michael's point on blade angle options, that was a draw to the LV BU set that I had in mind. Sounds like dropping the scrub for now and making sure that I have a set of different angle blades might be just the ticket. I also like the idea of using an older or should I say vintage plane for a scrub. gives me a chance to learn how to restore old iron and not feel so bad if it goes south on me.

Matt, I'll look into the router plane sounds interesting.

Heather, I'd be interested to know why the LN shoulder worked better for you than LV? I've got pretty small hands and the articles indicated LV had more adjustment flexibility, keeping in mind never used one so only articles driving the comment.

I do have a tennoning jig for my TS. Got a great price on it a while back $35 but haven't used it much. I'll post my speaker table build story here soon. I've probably made most of the common mistakes on making it including being way to distracted to be in the shop, major measuring and cutting mistakes that I fixed instead of tossing.

Thanks again for all your input and I've really enjoyed this forum!

Randy...

Gary Benson
09-03-2009, 12:53 PM
Randy,
Not to confuse you or offend any of the many LV fans in the audience, but I prefer the look and feel of the LN bench planes better than the veritas stuff. I think I could get by for 95% plus of my planing needs with my #7 bevel down and my #4 1/2 smoother with 50 degree frog. You already have the block plane and love it, why not add to it? I have the Vertitas router, and agree that it is nearly perfect. I did prefer the small LN shoulder over the medium Veritas, but that is really just a pepsi vs coke decision, they are equal in quality.

Just a little balance to the ongoing LN vs LV debate,

Gary

Prashun Patel
09-03-2009, 1:10 PM
I'm close to pulling the trigger on the Veritas trilogy (at least one of them).

I read a review of the BU smoother vs the LN, which argued that the depth and adjustment settings of the Veritas are pretty slick in comparison.

I've NEVER read a bad review of either make, and I've concluded that it comes down to personal preference. The Veritas's have the edge for me only bkz of blade interchangeability on the "Trilogy" and they tend to be a few $$ cheaper than the LN counterparts which can add up over a couple planes...

My first'll probably be the BU Smoother @ 38deg.

Tom Adger
09-03-2009, 6:40 PM
I have absolutely nothing the LN or LV planes, except the price. If money is no object, and you want to miss out on the fun of fettling an old plane, then go for it.

There are plenty of old planes, Stanley, Millers Falls, etc. 60, 70, 80 yrs old that, when new, were on a par(or better) than the new best planes. What you see on ebay, or CL, or at a flea market may be a piece of junk, or surprisingly close to original condition, and sometimes so cheap, you feel like you have to back up and hide your face before you hand over your money.

Heather Thompson
09-03-2009, 7:16 PM
Randy,

I think you miss read my comments, I tried Lie-Nielsen, Lee Valley and Clifton 410, the Clifton won hands down. Clifton is the best shoulder plane I have ever used. I have the money to buy what I want, Clifton does what I need.

Heather

David Keller NC
09-03-2009, 9:18 PM
Randy - If you're seriously thinking about surfacing and truing most of your wood with planes, I've an alternate suggestion. I do surface most of my stock with hand planes - the lunchbox planer mostly sets quietly in the corner. My reasons primarily involve appropriate processes for what I make (reproductions from the age of handwork) and what I use (mostly boards way too wide for all except very costly huge planers).

The BU jointer and smoother, if you prefer BU planes (I don't), will serve you well. However, you don't need the scrub, nor the jack, for now. The traditional (and least work) method for truing a wide, long board are: hogging most of the waste off with a fore plane; truing the face and edges with a jointer; and, if the board's on the show surface, smoothing with a smoothing plane.

While you can use a jack as a fore plane, it's a bit short for large-scale furniture work. Wooden fore planes are about 18-22" long, metal ones a bit shorter (the Stanley #6 size is traditioanlly thought of as a fore, or roughing, plane). If your intent is to work with smaller projects, then you can choose shorter planes as your fore, jointer and smoother - for example, the #6 as the jointer, a 5-1/4 as the fore plane, and a #3 as a smoother.

And in this one case of a fore plane, a bevel up design is not optimal. The reason has to do with clearance angles and the much higher camber (curve) necessary to take the same thickness of shaving from a BU vs. a BD plane. And what you want in a fore plane is a very thck, well-supported iron, highly curved to take very thck shavings, and an open mouth to eliminate clogging. The ideal plane for this purpose really is a bevel down wooden one, because it's far lighter and offers less friction between the sole and the wood surface, all of which means less work. However, a #6 antique stanley with a replacement Hock blade will serve you very well, and leave more money in your pocket for other planes.

The main advantage to buying a LN or LV plane is higher precision adjustments, better machining, flatter soles, and more square sides than one would typically find in a low quality modern plane or an antique, but that's only really beneficial when you need fine shavings. That's not the case with a fore plane.

One other thing to keep in mind when justifying the expense of a LV vs. a LN plane. If you prefer the LN design, it makes little sense to buy the LV instead for the relatively small savings realized. This is a lifetime purchase - so long as you don't leave them out in the rain, beat on them with hammers, or otherwise abuse them, a LV or LN plane will last more than your children's lifetime, and it's always a mistake to buy something that was your second choice if the money difference is small, which it is in this case.

Randy Bonella
09-04-2009, 12:08 AM
Wow even more to think about across the spectrum. Thank you all for you comments and input. I'm an engineer by trade and tend to over analyze things to death. One thing certain though I'm Making progress in getting things going in the shop.

Heather- Sorry I missed your comment on the shoulder plane and thanks for the clarification. I'll look at the Clifton products and your link to the best things.

Tom - No intention to miss out on "fettling" the old stuff and you make a very valid point that has been made over many times on this site. Just trying to get started so as not to get frustrated. Been there before with other hobbies. I know that this is just the start and I have many a tool to acquire to fill the stables and your point is well taken. I'm keeping my eyes open for old iron and am just starting to find places to look here in the Great Northwest.

Gary - Thanks for the comments on LN. I recently rejoined the Oregon Woodworkers Guild, and this time may actually do something with that membership, and hopefully I can get a chance to try out and compare the LN, LV and other products before purchasing. I know I can try out the LN product at our Woodcraft store just hoping that someone local and some LV product and can also point me to places to look for Vintage Stanley, Millers falls and the like.

John - I was seriously considering going your path with the power jointer and planer. And if I had more space and more money I might even continue down that path. For me though, I've been finding myself spending a great deal of time making jigs, setting up tools, checking measurements and offsets of bits and blades to get cuts and shapes where and how I want them. Destroying wood and starting over. Then one day I sharpened up my chisels and started hacking away and really enjoyed it. Then I pulled out my one and only plane to do some power tool mistake fixing and it felt just plane good!, pun intended. It was an a-ha moment.

David and others when you get right down to it you are correct. This purchase is for my lifetime and hopefully many others. The cost difference isn't so great as to cause me to not purchase LN or Clifton. So with all that has been said its time for some real trials using the real thing to see what I like and what I don't and if I stumble across some old iron that can be rehabbed as I start this journey so much the better (and cheaper:))

Thanks again for sharing your insights and wisdom and I look forward to sharing some of journey's with you all.

Randy...

Jim Koepke
09-04-2009, 2:23 AM
Randy,
Welcome to the creek. It seems we have a few members from the great northwest area.

I am sure the BU planes you mentioned can do fine work. The great thing is that there are so many choices for doing fine work. Most of my planes are old Stanley/Bailey planes. There is much enjoyment to be derived from turning an old piece of rust into a fine shaving machine.

LN is having a "Tool Event" in Port Townsend, WA on the 11th & 12th.

More Information Here (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/?pg=1)

I am going to try to get there just to try out their shoulder planes. I have an old Stanley #93, but someday may want to get something better.

The LV may be my choice. It does seem to have a few better comfort of use features. Sometimes these work, sometimes the hands just do not fit them right.

Last one of these that I attended there was also Bridge City Tools with their shoulder plane. I do not know if they have a show room in Portland or not. There are a few places I like south of Portland for tool hunting. Makes me think the tool Hunting must not be too bad in parts of Oregon.
Aurora has a lot of antique shops and one of them has a section of old hand tools. I think one of he owners deals in old tools. There is also a building materials salvage business that has some tools, but some of their prices are a bit high.

I think in Woodburn, about 8 miles south of Aurora on 99E,there is the Thinking Collector store. There are a few tools in the store, the tool guy there, Terry, has always given me a fair deal on tools that I have bought from him. I talked to him one time for what seemed like about a half hour looking at all of his planes and other tools. My wife says it was actually well over 3 hours. On a plane that I was buying from him he even explained to me why the price seemed so good. The plane was modified a bit and did not have "collector value." Oh gee.

jim

Not sure if LV makes it to these, maybe not since LN is the main underwriter.