Is it really "metric"... or are we just getting "ripped"?

[David DeCristoforo]

Most of the so called three quarter inch plywood that gets delivered to my shop actually measures out closer to eleven sixteenths in thickness. That's because, I am told, that it is "imported" plywood and is measured, not in inches, but in millimeters.

A sheet of plywood contains 32 square feet of wood (at least I think it's wood). At three quarters of an inch in thickness, that's the equivalent of 24 "board feet" of material. But at eleven sixteenths, if you take that "missing" one sixteenth of an inch of thickness and cut into one foot squares and stack them up, you will have a stack two inches high (one sixteenth X 32) which translates into two "board feet" of wood per sheet, each of which now actually only represents 22 "board feet" of material. If you multiply that over a "unit" of forty sheets of plywood, there is a total of eighty square feet of plywood "missing" or the equivalent of right around two and a half sheets.

Draw your own conclusions....

[Stan Johnsey]

Happened with bread and coffee, too. The loaf of bread that used to weigh 24 ounces is now often 20. A pound of coffee is lucky to weigh twelve ounces.

[Stephen Edwards]

Happened with bread and coffee, too. The loaf of bread that used to weigh 24 ounces is now often 20. A pound of coffee is lucky to weigh twelve ounces.

Yeah, but the difference here is how it's advertised. The loaf of bread and the can/bag of coffee, in my experience, state the weight in ounces.

A lot of lumber yards are still advertising and selling plywood as 3/4" plywood, that, in fact, isn't really 3/4".

[Darius Ferlas]

Most of the so called three quarter inch plywood that gets delivered to my shop actually measures out closer to eleven sixteenths in thickness. That's because, I am told, that it is "imported" plywood and is measured, not in inches, but in millimeters.

That's bollocks.

If you ordered 3/4" but they work with metric only they should have sold you 19mm plywood, which is shy only 0.05mm of full 3/4". What you got is more like 17.5mm.

Check the length and width. If they really sold you a metric plywood then it should be 2400x1200x19mm. However, if it's 4 feet by 8 feet by 17.5 mm then it's not really metric.

Both 17.5 and 19mm are standard and that's in Canada I get 19mm, which is simultaneously labeled as 3/4" so it looks like they ripped you by 1.5mm.

[Jamie Buxton]

It might be true that plywood manufactured in metric countries is measured in millimeters, but don't assume they use nice round numbers. For instance, what we see as "quarter inch" plywood (imported) is manufactured to a standard which is 5.2 millimeters. Go figure.

[Frank Drew]

So how do these dealers explain what's happened to a 2"x4"?

[John Coloccia]

Hell, I'd be happy if they all measured the same thickness, metric or standard. Sometimes it seems like the thickness is all over the place.

I have a little dimensional lumber cheat sheet I keep around because I can't remember stuff like "1X3 is really 3/4 X 2 1/2" and "1 1/2 is really 1 5/16". No wonder woodworking is so hard!

[David DeCristoforo]

"Happened with bread and coffee, too..."

And water too. The other day I went into the "mongo-mart" that got built right across the highway from my shop. I wanted to get some drinking water for my cooler. There were "gallon" bottles on the shelf and without really looking I grabbed three of them. When I went to pour them into the cooler, I notices that each "gallon" bottle had a large indentation on the bottom that removed at least a pint from the volume of the bottle. So my three gallons was actually a little less than two and three quarters gallons. Is it just me or is there a similarity here?

Again, draw your own conclusions...

[Stephen Edwards]

"Happened with bread and coffee, too..."

And water too. The other day I went into the "mongo-mart" that got built right across the highway from my shop. I wanted to get some drinking water for my cooler. There were "gallon" bottles on the shelf and without really looking I grabbed three of them. When I went to pour them into the cooler, I notices that each "gallon" bottle had a large indentation on the bottom that removed at least a pint from the volume of the bottle. So my three gallons was actually a little less than two and three quarters gallons. Is it just me or is there a similarity here?

Again, draw your own conclusions...


From what I understand, the purpose of that indentation in the "gallon" water jugs is to maintain the integrity of the molecular composition and the correct ratios of hydrogen and oxygen in the H20. Somehow, though I don't fully understand the details, it ensures that the correct proportions of the two elements are maintained at the BOTTOM of the jug, which, I'm told, is very important.:D

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I suspect the indentation is so they can stack bottles on top of bottles.

Liquid measure is something else and I believe is pretty well controlled. A gallon is a gallon....not 3 quarts....not 3 quarts and a pint....it's a gallon.

Lumber....I've always scratched my head over dimensional lumber.

Plywood....try matching up facia on the eves of your house when you have to replace some and butt "the new 3/4" " up against the "Real 3/4" "......

The same garbage is true with US made wall board....and wonderboard....the 1/2 wonderboard I just installed in my bathroom didn't match worth a damn against the 40 year old 1/2" wallboard on the walls. So break out the joint compound and make it match......

But they get more plywood per tree that way......

[Scott Hildenbrand]

Happened with bread and coffee, too. The loaf of bread that used to weigh 24 ounces is now often 20. A pound of coffee is lucky to weigh twelve ounces.


I buy my coffee whole bean in 40lb orders once a year and I make my own bread... So no issues for me.

Too bad I can't make my own ply.. ;)

Far as lumber as a whole goes.. What happened to the days when a 2x4 was actually 2x4. Yeah... It's rough sawn and then processed, but couldn't they cut it to 2 1/2 x 4 1/2 and then mill it down to 2x4?

Hmmm...

[Jason Hanko]

From what I understand, the purpose of that indentation in the "gallon" water jugs is to maintain the integrity of the molecular composition and the correct ratios of hydrogen and oxygen in the H20. Somehow, though I don't fully understand the details, it ensures that the correct proportions of the two elements are maintained at the BOTTOM of the jug, which, I'm told, is very important.:D

Thats why I only buy 8-pint jugs of Dihydrogen oxide.
And even then Ive noticed some stores are cheating and selling 50/50 H2O/HOH.
:p

</nerdy chemistry jokes>

[David DeCristoforo]

"...the purpose of that indentation in the "gallon" water jugs is to maintain the integrity of the molecular composition and the correct ratios of hydrogen and oxygen in the H20..."

Right... I knew that...

"I suspect the indentation is so they can stack bottles on top of bottles...
Liquid measure is something else and I believe is pretty well controlled..."

Well I have to go dig the bottles out and see if it actually sez "One Gallon". Anyone want to bet on it? I've got a funny feeling it says 120 Fl Oz or something. I'll let you know....

[Matt Evans]

This is the REAL reason to buy rough stock, then rip and dimension it yourself.

We just need bigger trees. . .

Which would mean most of us would need to buy bigger planers. . .

Hehe

[Jamie Buxton]

[I]...Well I have to go dig the bottles out and see if it actually sez "One Gallon". Anyone want to bet on it? I've got a funny feeling it says 120 Fl Oz or something. I'll let you know....

No, it probably says 800 milliliters or the like. The manufacturer bets that fewer people will know what it means.

[Charlie Plesums]

My water comes out of a faucet, not a bottle.:rolleyes:

And back to wood... I am thrilled when I get 19 mm plywood.. for all practical purposes I am back to full 3/4 inch! :D

[Ken Fitzgerald]

"...the purpose of that indentation in the "gallon" water jugs is to maintain the integrity of the molecular composition and the correct ratios of hydrogen and oxygen in the H20..."

Right... I knew that...

"I suspect the indentation is so they can stack bottles on top of bottles...
Liquid measure is something else and I believe is pretty well controlled..."

Well I have to go dig the bottles out and see if it actually sez "One Gallon". Anyone want to bet on it? I've got a funny feeling it says 120 Fl Oz or something. I'll let you know....

Maybe it's in liters.....or milliliters.............:rolleyes:

[Chris Gombola]

It's a disturbing trend. Instead of raising prices on the old quantity/volume, you see the quantity or volume shrink slightly at a stable price.

They did it several years ago with ice cream. The average ice cream container used to be 1/2 gallon. It went to 1.75 quarts and now it's 1.5 quarts. Same price. A few of the smaller companies still put out 1/2 gallon but the price is higher.

Just increase the price and cut the shenanigans!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Can't you hear them at business meetings when they are planning this stuff......


"SHHHHH! The dummies will never suspect it if we keep the price stable...decrease the quantity.....and put slightly larger letters on the box and slightly decrease the size of the numbers and letters indicating the volume........The dummies will sleep right through it. and we'll save XXXXXX and increase our profits"......:D

[Chuck Isaacson]

Far as lumber as a whole goes.. What happened to the days when a 2x4 was actually 2x4. Yeah... It's rough sawn and then processed, but couldn't they cut it to 2 1/2 x 4 1/2 and then mill it down to 2x4?

Hmmm...

Why do they have to round the corners of the damn things anyway? Why dont they just leave them square? Never really made sense to me..


Chuck

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Chuck,

The round corners lead to less splitting and large splinters IIRC.

[Chuck Saunders]

It's all covered in the "nominal" sizing. 2x4 is the rough sawn size. After surfacing and drying you get the nominal 2x4. But this could lead to unaccounted for wood loss. So maybe the 2x4 could include the saw kerf as well, then the timber is fully accounted for, sure the finished product is smaller but what does that matter. construction ply has been thin for a long time, maybe it is measured before finish sanding. Maybe now they measure the thickness before pressing.

David, what blade did you use to cut the missing sixteenth into squares?

[Thomas Williams]

A pound of coffee is lucky to weigh twelve ounces.
Sorry I just have to: a pound of coffee is still a pound of coffee. Weights and measures are standard, not so with packaging. So, the prepackaged bags are now being sold with only twelve ounces in them.

[Thomas Pender]

I buy most of my plywood from Northland Forest Products and it comes in MM - with nominal conversion to SAE posted next to it. If anything, it is almost too thick. Regardless, I get what I expect and it is of great quality. On some stuff I am veneering on now, I have had to plane a path (using my favorite LV medium shoulder plane) on the edge of the back of the panels so they will fit into the panel slots I had routed in the rails and stiles (do not want to rout them bigger). Makes me wish I had bought thinner plywood. :)

But, whenever I buy plywood, I take my calipers with me - less pain and suffering once I get it back to my shop. Still, I do believe we should get what we pay for and my solution is not to buy stuff that does not spec out.

[Darrell Bade]

The thing that confuses me is the 1/2" less thing for most boards which I understand, but at some size it switches to more than 1/2 under. A 2x4 is 1 1/2" x 3 1/2", but a 2x12 is 1 1/2" x 11". At some width the 1/2" becomes more but I forget at what size that is.

[Matt Meiser]

Regarding food container sizes, I read a newspaper article about a lot of companies changing container sizes last year. Instead of raising the price of a jar of peanut butter, they included less product by making the indentation in the bottom bigger for example. People are more likely to notice the price increase than the quantity decrease. Call it deception if you want but they had to do one or the other due to rising ingredient prices.

I believe those indentations are sometimes structural as well.

They've been selling 100oz or so "gallons" of bleach for several years now. The last couple times I bought bleach I noticed it. And buying bleach a couple times for me is a lot of years!

[Jeff Duncan]

The real problem was right in the original post....imported plywood!! Whenever I order stock my supplier asks me whether I want imported or domestic, I don't want any junk that's not local. It's either made in Canada or the good ol' USA. I just measured my delivery from last week, 3/4" prefin maple and it's dead on at 3/4". It's also usually 1/2" - 1" oversized which helps get 24" wide panels. The 1/2" stock looks a bit undersized, but not really a full 64th of an inch.
It all comes back to getting what you pay for. Pay for quality domestic product and you'll likely be much happier. It's also much less prone to the 'potato chip' syndrome that imported ply seems to exhibit.

JeffD

[David DeCristoforo]

OK... I dug one of the bottles out of the recycling bin and it says "3 Liters (3 Quarts, 5.4 Fl Oz). So I should have read the label. But here's the "rub". Because of the way the bottle is made, it appears to be exactly the size of a gallon bottle so it is pretty easy to "assume" that it is a gallon bottle. Of course I "should have read the fine print" but this is taking the concept of "buyer beware" to perverse levels. Also. FWIW, the tap water where I live is undrinkable. It tastes like #$&*!

[Wilbur Pan]

Also. FWIW, the tap water where I live is undrinkable. It tastes like #$&*!

Try a Brita filter. You won't have to worry about container sizes after that. ;)

[Stephen Edwards]

OK... I dug one of the bottles out of the recycling bin and it says "3 Liters (3 Quarts, 5.4 Fl Oz). So I should have read the label. But here's the "rub". Because of the way the bottle is made, it appears to be exactly the size of a gallon bottle so it is pretty easy to "assume" that it is a gallon bottle. Of course I "should have read the fine print" but this is taking the concept of "buyer beware" to perverse levels. .....!

Amen! It is very easy for us to "assume" that if it looks like a gallon jug that it probably is a gallon jug. "They", on the other hand, are assuming that most of aren't going to read the fine print. If confronted with what one could call deceptive packaging (I know, it's my responsibility to read the fine print....pulling out my magnifying glass) "They" would likely have a response such as: This design adds to the strength of the jug.

What a crock....I mean....what a jug!

[Rod Sheridan]

The real problem was right in the original post....imported plywood!! Whenever I order stock my supplier asks me whether I want imported or domestic, I don't want any junk that's not local. It's either made in Canada or the good ol' USA. I just measured my delivery from last week, 3/4" prefin maple and it's dead on at 3/4". It's also usually 1/2" - 1" oversized which helps get 24" wide panels. The 1/2" stock looks a bit undersized, but not really a full 64th of an inch.
It all comes back to getting what you pay for. Pay for quality domestic product and you'll likely be much happier. It's also much less prone to the 'potato chip' syndrome that imported ply seems to exhibit.

JeffD

Plywood made in Canada is made to metric standards, and has been since 1978.

Canadian plywood is available in metric sizes of 1,200 X 2,400mm (standard metric sheet size) or in the very slightly larger 48" X 96" size. Panels are also available in other sizes such as approximately 97" X 49" and of course much larger sheets that wouldn't be very useful to hobby people.

Your retailer orders what they want from the standard available sizes. No plywood made in Canada is available in imperial thicknesses, unless they accidentally match the metric standard such as 19mm.

Note that standard thicknesses are different for unsanded (sheathing, flooring etc) and sanded hardwood panels.

I think the issue is that the American public isn't that familiar with the metric system so your retailers buy 18mm plywood ( a standard size) and call it 3/4".

If they did as the Canadian retailers do and put the sign on it that says 18mm or 16mm or 12mm or 5.2mm, then you would know what you are purchasing.

I think the advertising of the plywood in "approximate" imperial sizes is very misleading and doesn't help train the consumers.

Regards, Rod.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Try a Brita filter..."

My wife uses those in her cafe but she has ice. I have one of those coolers that holds five gallon (at least I think they are five gallon...) bottles. I was just to lazy to go fill one so I got a couple of bottles to dump in.

"SHHHHH! The dummies will never suspect it if we keep the price stable...decrease the quantity....."

I remember getting cases of 24 12 oz bottles of apple juice at Costco. One day my wife picked up a case and I noticed that, while it still contained 24 bottles and was exactly the same price, the bottles were now 10 oz not 12. I'm sure that these examples could go on forever. It's the common practice now to, if not outright deceive, at least delude the customer. We are offered "reasons" for things that are simply insulting to any moderately intelligent human. Do these guys really think we are that gullible? Are we that gullible? Or do we simply accept these things as being "the way it is" and choke them down because "there is nothing we can do about it"? The whole bit about "nominal" sizes is a crock. There is no way you need to plane a half an inch off of a 2" thick piece of rough sawn lumber to get clean faces. And if it is, why not mill the rough stock at 2.5 inches? Obviously because the yield is lower and therefore the profit is lower. Do they really think we can't understand these "complex" concepts? That we cannot see through the gossamer thin veil? Give me a break....

[Ken Fitzgerald]

David,

I agree with what your saying but there is the other side of the story.


It's easier to inform the public "25% more Free" and enlarge the nominal container than it is to say "10% less so that we can not increase the price when they decrease the size of the container".

Like you, I wish they didn't do it. Just raise the price.

I'm sure some business major will say they did it to keep from losing market share.

[David DeCristoforo]

You are absolutely spot on, Ken. I would be much happier to have to deal with the fact that something costs more "up front" than to have to always be "looking over my shoulder" and trying to get through the layers of crud that are placed there to prevent me from realizing that I am paying more. I can deal with having to pay more. I'm charging more for my products too. But I'm not making my chessboards thinner and keeping the price the same in order to hide the fact that the customer is getting less for his money.

[Andrew Joiner]

I have become a total buyer beware type. I try to buy everything by it's raw material content. Brands and marketing slogans mean nothing to me.

A classic example is ice cream. It's sold by volume not weight so whipping in air is legal and gives consumers less product. Look at the labels on ice cream. Some of the "premium" brands (and you MUST use your imagination to define premium here) have more skim milk than cream!

I would call it Ice Skim Milk to be correct. Oh, and with lots of added whipped air to reduce calories. By the way we must charge more because it's healthy and air is natural and ORGANIC!

[Wilbur Pan]

A classic example is ice cream. It's sold by volume not weight so whipping in air is legal and gives consumers less product. Look at the labels on ice cream. Some of the "premium" brands (and you MUST use your imagination to define premium here) have more skim milk than cream!

I would call it Ice Skim Milk to be correct. Oh, and with lots of added whipped air to reduce calories. By the way we must charge more because it's healthy and air is natural and ORGANIC!

The easy way to deal with air in ice cream is to simply pick up the containers in the store and buy the one that feels densest when you lift the container.

BTW, air jokes aside, organic ice cream does taste better. ;)

[Andrew Joiner]

I hear that the plywood marketing people have come out with a revolutionary new product.

NEW SAVE THE WORLD PLYWOOD.(Our 3/4 inch world plywood actually measures only 1/2 inch thick).
It saves trees and it's much easier to lift onto the saw because it's ACTUALLY 33% LIGHTER IN WEIGHT! AND it doesn't cost that much more than the old planet killing plywood you were using!

[Jeff Duncan]

Rod, you may be correct, all I can say is the Norbond I buy, made in Canada, measures 3/4" x 49" x 97". Now if it's manufactured to metric and happens to end up at 3/4" x 49" x 97" that's great. I really couldn't say what they're using for a measurement system, but I can say they make good products that are sized appropriately for what I do;)
Also, on a side note...bigger suppliers can order material to the dimensions they're customers require. Thus most construction grade material ends up at 48"x96" and cabinet grade ends up oversized at 49" x 97". I also have the ability to order material at 25" widths or 10' lengths etc etc.. If your buying in bulk, they'll sell whatever you want.
JeffD

[James Carmichael]

Plywood has been shrinking for years, but that sounds like some really cheap stuff.

Domestic is normally around 23/32. Even the imported 18mm should be thicker than 11/16.

I can understand why solid wood is slightly undersized due to drying (and planing, if it isn't rough.) but a manufacturer has control of the final dimensions on plywood. Producing material that is 18mm thick and advertising it as 3/4" is just wrong, IMO.

Last time I eyed a plywood stack in a BORG, I asked an employee if it was 23/32 or 18mm thickness. He looked at the price tag and said "See, it's 3/4". Gotta love it:-)

[David Keller NC]

One has to remember that the average member of the public is just slightly smarter than a brick. Ever watched Leno or Letterman when they go out to interview the "everyman" (or "everywoman") on the street and they think that the country of Japan is in the Southern Hemisphere?

The down-sizing, is, of course, perfectly appropriate - it's social Darwanism, which could be summed up in "stupidity is its own worst punishment". :)

[Rod Sheridan]

One has to remember that the average member of the public is just slightly smarter than a brick. Ever watched Leno or Letterman when they go out to interview the "everyman" (or "everywoman") on the street and they think that the country of Japan is in the Southern Hemisphere?

The down-sizing, is, of course, perfectly appropriate - it's social Darwanism, which could be summed up in "stupidity is its own worst punishment". :)

LOL, come on David, tell us what you really think about Joe Average:D.

Regards, Rod.

[David Keller NC]

Elitist, I'm not. My standard uniform is a t shirt and blue jeans, and I heat my shop with a wood stove in the winter. But when I see interviews on the street where people cannot correctly identify important world leaders, think that the UN headquarters is located in Switzerland, or that Australia is part of Africa, well - you have to draw the line somewhere.:D

[David DeCristoforo]

I saw one where they asked the guy how much water was in a gallon bottle and he said three and a half quarts....

[Bruce Wrenn]

Would you buy a gallon of milk that only had three quarts in it? When you exchange a 20 lb propane cylinder that is EXACTLY what you are doing. They now contain 15 lbs of propane, but it is still a 20 lb cylinder. Some state's attorney general needs to go after them, or make them produce 15 lb cylinders. Simplest thing to do is when you get plywood that is advertised as 3/4 and it isn't, call supplier and remind them about truth in advertising laws. Then file a complaint with attorney general's office.

[Stephen Edwards]

Would you buy a gallon of milk that only had three quarts in it? When you exchange a 20 lb propane cylinder that is EXACTLY what you are doing. They now contain 15 lbs of propane, but it is still a 20 lb cylinder. Some state's attorney general needs to go after them, or make them produce 15 lb cylinders. Simplest thing to do is when you get plywood that is advertised as 3/4 and it isn't, call supplier and remind them about truth in advertising laws. Then file a complaint with attorney general's office.


I'm all for truth in advertising. But, I think that the propane folks are required by law to leave a certain amount of "empty space" in the tank. I know that when I have my tank filled here at my house they will only fill it to 80%. When I asked why, they told me that's the law. I don't know if that's a state law or nationwide. I'm sure that they would like to sell me more product. I would have to buy another or a larger tank in order for them to be able to do so.

Plywood is a different matter altogether! 3/4" should be 3/4". Period.

[Chuck Saunders]

I am not saying that there are not village idiots out there, far from it, but remember that the people you see Jay and Dave talking to are culled from a larger group. Hmmm culled, there's an idea.

[Danny Burns]

Since there is such variability in plywood LV sell these bits to match the sheets.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=49888&cat=1,46168,46171

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=&p=53250&cat=1,46168,62157


http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=&p=50698&cat=1,46168,62157

Stacking dadoes can be fun too.

If you are using it as a shelf, then calculate the sag.

http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator.htm

When working with Baltic Birch, if I need more strength, I glue on a thin 3 ply sheet to the primary panel.
So a 17.5 mm thick ply with a 2.5 mm addition glued on gets me past the 19 mm/ 3/4" barrier.

[John Coloccia]

Since there is such variability in plywood LV sell these bits to match the sheets.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=49888&cat=1,46168,46171

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=&p=53250&cat=1,46168,62157


http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=&p=50698&cat=1,46168,62157

Stacking dadoes can be fun too.

If you are using it as a shelf, then calculate the sag.

http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator.htm

When working with Baltic Birch, if I need more strength, I glue on a thin 3 ply sheet to the primary panel.
So a 17.5 mm thick ply with a 2.5 mm addition glued on gets me past the 19 mm/ 3/4" barrier.

Did you notice the calculator includes Balsa? Radio control models, pipe filters, and now book shelves :)

[Jerome Hanby]

It's a disturbing trend. Instead of raising prices on the old quantity/volume, you see the quantity or volume shrink slightly at a stable price.

They did it several years ago with ice cream. The average ice cream container used to be 1/2 gallon. It went to 1.75 quarts and now it's 1.5 quarts. Same price. A few of the smaller companies still put out 1/2 gallon but the price is higher.

Just increase the price and cut the shenanigans!

There is another ploy that dovetails into the back of that one. Put out a new and bigger size for the same price, after a bit start sliding the price up, after that start the drop the size but keep the price ploy again. I recall noticing that when they went from 16 oz to 20 oz soft drinks.

[Larry Edgerton]

Its curious that things always get smaller, never larger, when the standards change......

I did recently get a load of knotty pine plywood that was actually 3/4", but it was not flat and should have been run through the sander again.

[James White]

http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodfaq5.html

If you follow the link above and then scroll down to the Hersey bar section. You will see the ploy clearly. Pay close attention to the weight vs price and you will see how they play the public clearly. It certainly nothing new to them.

James

[Myk Rian]

No wonder woodworking is so hard!
Which is why a planer is so handy to have.

[bill mullin]

One has to remember that the average member of the public is just slightly smarter than a brick. Ever watched Leno or Letterman when they go out to interview the "everyman" (or "everywoman") on the street and they think that the country of Japan is in the Southern Hemisphere?

The down-sizing, is, of course, perfectly appropriate - it's social Darwanism, which could be summed up in "stupidity is its own worst punishment". :)

Do you think it is a coincidence that the one's Leno picks are sub 25 year old aspiring actors in L.A.?

One also has to remember that through the "magic" of editing, of every 25 interviewed, its easy to show the 1 or 2 bricks. He's after laughs, not reality.

[David Keller NC]

Do you think it is a coincidence that the one's Leno picks are sub 25 year old aspiring actors in L.A.?

One also has to remember that through the "magic" of editing, of every 25 interviewed, its easy to show the 1 or 2 bricks. He's after laughs, not reality.

Sadly, it's not just Leno and Letterman. I've been involved on a number of public education projects that involve panels answering questions from the public. Stupid is very inaccurate, but ignorant would be completely justifiable.

[John Gornall]

Back in the early 1960's I worked in a planer mill. We bought rough 2x's from the sawmill and planed them to sell to the building trade. They were 1 13/16" x 3 13/16" when we got them and we would run them through a 4 sided planer to take them to final size. I remember the day we had to reset the planer to the 1 1/2" x 3 1/2" - we were told that there was a new standard size for all of Canada and the USA. We were told that before this there were different size standards in different areas of the countries. I measured the 2x4's in my parents house built in the 1940's and they were 1 5/8" x 3 3/4".

The 4 sided planer also had 4 cutters to round the corners. We were told that rounding would mean less creeking floors and walls. Floors and exterior walls were covered in solid wood shiplap in those days - no plywood.

By the end of the 60's we could buy plywood in any length - saw a sheet of 3/4 fir 100 feet long with perfect, clear veneer. We sold a lot of 32 foot and 40 foot lengths to the boat builders. My first boat was 14 feet plywood and designed to be built from 2 sheets 4 feet by 15 feet. The marine grade douglas fir plywood had no knots or voids in any layer.

And by the way were you talking US gallons or Imperial gallons?

[John Coloccia]

Do you think it is a coincidence that the one's Leno picks are sub 25 year old aspiring actors in L.A.?

One also has to remember that through the "magic" of editing, of every 25 interviewed, its easy to show the 1 or 2 bricks. He's after laughs, not reality.

Don't be so sure. Not to get political here, but just as an example:

I work with otherwise pretty smart people. I'm an engineer, and I work with engineers, scientists etc. A couple of months ago, I asked one of them, "What do you think of that Waxman bill?" Blank stare. "You know, Cap and Trade?". Blank stare. Never heard of it. I may as well have been speaking gibberish, never mind the huge impact this could have on business, including OUR business.

I used to think like you, but now I just think that even people of otherwise average intelligence are so out of touch with the world around them that it's entirely possible for them to not know:

1) the vice president of the US
2) what the largest planet is
3) what the closest star is
4) Who Osama Bin Laden is
etc etc etc.

[bill mullin]

Don't be so sure. Not to get political here, but just as an example:

I work with otherwise pretty smart people. I'm an engineer, and I work with engineers, scientists etc. A couple of months ago, I asked one of them, "What do you think of that Waxman bill?" Blank stare. "You know, Cap and Trade?". Blank stare. Never heard of it. I may as well have been speaking gibberish, never mind the huge impact this could have on business, including OUR business.

I used to think like you, but now I just think that even people of otherwise average intelligence are so out of touch with the world around them that it's entirely possible for them to not know:

1) the vice president of the US
2) what the largest planet is
3) what the closest star is
4) Who Osama Bin Laden is
etc etc etc.
I still stand by my statement though. People have widely varying areas of interest. I myself had zero interest in history or politics until about age 35 or so. If Leno were to ask the same person, who didn't know the current vice-president, to recite the second act of Othello(if such a thing exists, I have no idea), he might get chapter and verse.
Everyone is ignorant of something, even Einstein was.
Some here seem to think that American consumer ignorance explains the downsizing of lumber, and other products. Are they suggesting had the public been more vigilant, downsizing would not have happened. Where were these soothsayers when it happened. If they were so smart, could they have helped prevent it? The buying public vote with their feet and their money. If a manufacturer begins selling 23/32" ply instead of 3/4" ply, and I need 50 sheets of it yesterday for a job I'm behind on, am I ignorant to buy it instead of wasting hours, days or weeks looking for 3/4". Sometimes practicality trumps principle.

[Larry Lukens]

I think everything is just getting "downsized." Not only plywood. Have you put a caliper on a 2x4 recently. The ones from Home Depot are more like 1-7/16 thick.

What really annoys me isn't a 12 oz pound of coffee or 17 lb of dog food in a 20 lb bag.

It's that a half gallon of ice cream has only about 3 pints. That's 3 servings per carton, and I have to spend that much more on gas to go get more!:)

[Rod Sheridan]

I think everything is just getting "downsized." Not only plywood. Have you put a caliper on a 2x4 recently. The ones from Home Depot are more like 1-7/16 thick.

What really annoys me isn't a 12 oz pound of coffee or 17 lb of dog food in a 20 lb bag.

It's that a half gallon of ice cream has only about 3 pints. That's 3 servings per carton, and I have to spend that much more on gas to go get more!:)

Not to mention that you guys got ripped on your gallon as well, ours was 160 ounces as opposed to your more modern 132 ounces.:D

regards, Rod.