Who was excluded from the marketplace area of Woodworking in America show?

[Auguste Gusteau]

Christopher Schwarz wrote on his blog that several vendors were excluded from the marketplace area of Woodworking in America show.

Some of you know who are the excluded and the reason for their exclusion?

I tried to ask Christopher Schwarz, but instead of answering he deleted my comment.


Auguste, who apologizes for his bad English

[Joe Close]

You're a funny little man Auguste. :D

[Richard Magbanua]

I tried to ask Christopher Schwarz, but instead of answering he deleted my comment.

Really? But why would he do that to such a loyal and courteous blog reader? I mean, Christopher thinks so highly of you and all.

Let's see, what did he write..


The exhibitors are top-shelf (no ShamWow) and are hand-picked. (We say "no thanks" to several sellers.)

Hmmm, sounds like there's definitely a conspiracy here. :eek:

[Auguste Gusteau]

Not so little, Joe. ;-)

[David Keller NC]

Christopher Schwarz wrote on his blog that several vendors were excluded from the marketplace area of Woodworking in America show.

Some of you know who are the excluded and the reason for their exclusion?

I tried to ask Christopher Schwarz, but instead of answering he deleted my comment.


Auguste, who apologizes for his bad English

Likely, anyone that sells hand tools cheaply - we like to discourage cheapness in all its forms.:)

[Auguste Gusteau]

I have not made any suggestion, Richard, I just made a couple of questions.

Auguste

[Tristan Raymond]

I noticed that too. He brought up the point then refused to answer, hmm... So, I guess we should speculate. Maybe Stanley wanted to come and show off their new 62?

[Doug Shepard]

Glad I didnt go. I really had my heart set on a a new ShamWow:mad:

[Brian Kent]

Will ShamWow actually hold 10 times its weight in BLO?

[Richard Magbanua]

THAT'S why I've gone through 5 gallons of BLO in one month! That's also why my arm is tired. :D

Here's another product that DID make it in the show. It will be demo'd at the sharpening stations...

(PG-13)

[Bill Houghton]

Auguste seems to have asked a legitimate question and gotten stomped all over. What am I missing?

One of the problems in shows of any kind is vendors who offer either junk or products related only vaguely to the show subject - go to any home and garden show for examples of this reality. Chris Schwarz said, "The exhibitors are top-shelf (no ShamWow) and are hand-picked. (We say "no thanks" to several sellers.)" I read that to mean they were careful to select vendors who would offer quality tools and products to the customers.

Any language - indeed, any dialect - has a lot of subtle word and phrase meanings. Try reading current English newspapers or novels and see if you understand everything said.

[Richard Magbanua]

Good answer Bill. Sorry for the Sarcasm. I digress.

I've been to woodworking shows and wonder why some of those vendors are there. Probably for many trade shows money will get you in. I think WWIA wants to prevent that and keep it focused. Quality control.

As far as which ones were denied and why, no clue.


Was there a vendor in particular you were wanting to see Auguste?

[Russ Kay]

Last year at Berea, Norton was handing out free microfiber cloths -- not that far from ShamWow, but at least the price was right!

[Casey Gooding]

I think he was just being courteous to the excluded group. No need to start any feuds or to bad mouth anyone. Probably a similar reason to why he doesn't publish bad reviews on tools.

[Butch Hayes]

While I certainly understand the business reasons behind not publishing bad reviews, I have a very hard time thinking it has anything to do with being courteous. Bad reviews can lead to loss of advertising $$. No review can simply mean a product hasn't been reviewed. That's why just about the only magazine that ever publishes bad reviews is Consumer Reports - no advertising. I'm not saying that advertisers get favorable reviews based on how much they advertise, just that it would be pretty bad for business to knock products from existing or potential advertisers.

That's what we're here for :).

[Auguste Gusteau]

Dear friends, I have no problem with the sarcastic responses I received. I am used to similar answers.

I really have not insinuating anything.

I just would understand who is a ShamWow in the current panorama of woodworking handtools.

On one hand to keep me away from such people and the other to test the competence of who make a critique so fierce.

[Ron Brese]

Auguste,

Anytime one makes it public that they will have an event in proximity to a large metropolitan area, vendors will come out in large numbers wanting to participate, some of these vendors will have products or services that are in no way related to the subject of the conference. They basically just see a chance to market. An attendee at this show most likely has an interest in the subject matter and expects the products that the marketplace vendors will offer to support this subject. It's much better for the attendees not to have to muddle thru the pitch of people selling unrelated products just to see the products in which they are truly interested.

There is also a lot of information being traded in the marketplace so having vendors that are knowledgeable in things related to the conference subject is a real plus to the success of the conference. I can't speak for Chris, but I feel as though this is the reason that some vendors were excluded, however it would not be fair to the excluded vendors for Chris to come out and publicly state which vendors were told "no thanks." These vendors may have very good products that just weren't related to the conference subject.

My two cents,

Ron Brese

Disclaimer: I will be an exhibitor at WIA in Valley Forge

[Don C Peterson]

Disclaimer: I will be an exhibitor at WIA in Valley Forge



As well you should!

I suspect that's exactly why CS isn't naming names, well said.

[Bill Houghton]

I just would understand who is a ShamWow in the current panorama of woodworking handtools.

Auguste,

ShamWow is a substitute chamois cloth. You can view information on it at https://www.shamwow.com/ver14/index.asp. From the few seconds I spent on the website before closing it, I take it that it's being very heavily promoted by the company, in an infomercial kind of way.

I also take it from Chris Schwarz' comment that he's not terribly impressed by it.

[Auguste Gusteau]

Where is the problem in saying their names if their products are not related to the event?
Why not simply say, "we excluded the sellers of products not related to woodworking?

And why if they sell some excellent products they are compared to ShamWow sellers?

[Jim Koepke]

I also take it from Chris Schwarz' comment that he's not terribly impressed by it.

My wife point to all the tricks in the photography whenever the commercial is on TV.


Where is the problem in saying their names if their products are not related to the event?
Why not simply say, "we excluded the sellers of products not related to woodworking?

And why if they sell some excellent products they are compared to ShamWow sellers?

This is just my speculation and I make no claim to know information about the actual vendors who were excluded let alone the ones that were actually there.

Some of the excluded may be large box marketers that could have a few woodworking items but would use the venue to show case other products, AKA high jacking the show.

Some of the excluded could be retail vendors that carry the products from some of the manufactures who are attending the show.

Also, I can imagine a list of excluded vendors that would look like the New York Yellow Pages.

Then there is the idea of vendors who attend the venue to demonstrate products and become acquainted with the people using them and their needs, desires and preferences compared to vendors that look at such shows as a place to just push boxes out the door.

There is not enough space for everyone and there is also a much better show if the "hired for the show, sales pitch artists" are not allowed.

jim

jim

[Auguste Gusteau]

Thank you, Jim.

[Raney Nelson]

Auguste - can I ask you a question? Why is it that everytime I see a post from you in any form or any venue it is some form of 'taking Chris Schwarz' to task? I've seen some of the posts of yours that he's deleted in the past, and he certainly showed a lot more restraint than I would have. I suppose the 'language' and cultural barriers might account for some of it, but it certainly appears to me that you've got some sort of axe to grind.

Raising issues with bloggers, editors, and pundits is one thing - raising them habitually smacks of something other than curiosity to me.

Aren't we still required to use real names on SMC?

[Howard Mahoney]

[QUOTE=Butch Hayes;1206572]While I certainly understand the business reasons behind not publishing bad reviews, I have a very hard time thinking it has anything to do with being courteous. Bad reviews can lead to loss of advertising $$. No review can simply mean a product hasn't been reviewed. That's why just about the only magazine that ever publishes bad reviews is Consumer Reports - no advertising. I'm not saying that advertisers get favorable reviews based on how much they advertise, just that it would be pretty bad for business to knock products from existing or potential advertisers.

That's what we're here for :).


Re: woodworking reviews: I think what you are saying is true for mainstream media- such as car magazines, stereo magazines, etc.

I don't think it is true of woodworking in general. One of the things I admire about Chris Schwartz is that he strives to be objective (and funny). In fact, i have never bought a tool that was reviewed in any woodworking magazine (as opposed to featured) and been disappointed. Chris admits when he is not objective, ie. when a tool fits his hand or stance, and also pokes fun at the legion of devotees who follow him and what it means to tool sales (Wives Against Schwartz, in which my wife is probably a high ranking officer). Hell, the guy has told people if you read all his stuff NOT to buy his new book. He is very outpsoken about what he percieves as flaws as well as cognizant that what works for him may not work for you. Look at his reviews of the new Stanleys or the Woodriver planes.

Yes, he has relationships with the best handtool makers, but openly admits it and tells you when he spends his own money. Money from them he donates to charity. Personally, I'd love to have any of the tools he raves about and have to admire a guy that is so dileigent and transparent. Yeah he is a magazine editor, but he cares about our hobby/ avocation and he seems to genuinely care about us. I read his Lost Art press blog where he spoke about a guy with a disablilty who took one of his classe and it almost made me cry (I'm a high school principal--I have a high threshold). I get the impression if you ever complained about a tool you bought based on his recommendation and showed him it sucked he would try to do something about it.

Regarding Consmuer Reports, I can't even begin to describe the number of items I bought based on their "objective" data only to be disappointed.
I have a dishwasher and a washing machine highly rated by Consumer Reports. I can't stand either.

Hand tool woodworking is an experience that is based on feedback from a tool to a person and you can't measure it--only experience it and try to pass on the feeling if you are writing about it. If you take the human touch out of something like a handtool you eleiminate all sense of feedback and precision. How do you objectify fun? Isn't this a hobby for the vast majority of us using handtools (sorry, Adam).

I have followed the advice of several people who are highly published or major players--Rob Lee, Mike Wenzloff, Joel Moskowitx, Dave Jenkins. What is amazing about these guys is they will actually tell you what not to buy..Ie, "Well, you can get buy with this, you don't really need both. Or "Howard, for what you describe you just need three chisels not six." These are busienssmen, yes, but they are also devotees to a hobby that is not quite mainstream and therefore they know reputation and goodwill count.

Not long ago I bought a Grammercey carcase saw kit. The blade was slightly bent. I wote customer service and expected whomever to answer. Joel Moskowitz himself answered and said. "Yeah, you are right, you probably could straighten it but I would prefer we just get you a straight one right now".

I think we should be glad we are involved in hobby where the business men, retailers and writers care as much about the tools and product as we all do. I mean, Jesus, how does Rob Lee ever get anything done? He must spend most of his time just responding to us online. To me the woodworking business culture is a win-win rxperience, not a "they're just selling magazines" sort of thing.

[Auguste Gusteau]

Auguste - can I ask you a question?

Yes, sure.
We say "to ask is lawful and to answer is courtesy"


Why is it that everytime I see a post from you in any form or any venue it is some form of 'taking Chris Schwarz' to task? I've seen some of the posts of yours that he's deleted in the past, and he certainly showed a lot more restraint than I would have. I suppose the 'language' and cultural barriers might account for some of it, but it certainly appears to me that you've got some sort of axe to grind.
Raising issues with bloggers, editors, and pundits is one thing - raising them habitually smacks of something other than curiosity to me.

I am not sure I understood your question, but i think you are asking me if I have something against Christopher Schwarz. (what mean "to have an axe to gring", please?)

Well, I would like to make a long argument with you on this topic, but my language difficulties forced me to be brief.
But I hope that you try to understand me, you seem intelligent and reasonable and I'm sure you will be able to fill the gaps that will leave despite myself.

So why i don't like Christopher Schwarz when every other woodworkers adores him?
Mainly because I do not like to follow the mass.
When everyone goes in a direction I like to go the opposite way.
It is not an easy life, mine. I have to hit a lot of people, many just laugh at me, others give me the shoulder, but most of the time I discover things that nobody else sees simply because they're all looking at the other way.

Many people, especially young people, are afraid to approach hand woodworking because of high costs of the most basic tools.
Few people read the articles by Christopher Schwarz and ask me how they can build a cabinet without a $300 plane, a $200 saw and a $100 chisel and I explained that it is possible and that it has always been done.
But they are only a small part, all the others drunk everything Christopher Schwarz write without knowing that other possibilities are infinite.
Anyone with a little 'practice can sharpen a $20 saw that will cut as well as a $300 one.
I teach how to file a saw to anyone who ask me, for free, not for buyng a set of wooden handplanes, because I think that knowledge should be accessible to all.
Eastern saw maker built $30 saws that are sharp as razors, why western are not able or do not want to do the same with their traditional push stroke ones?

I write these things and similar ones in the comments of his blog because I want people approaching manual woodworking, not moving away.
Half the times he deletes my comments saying that I offend, but it is not true. Ask him a copy of my deleted comments and you can judge by yourself.
Certainly he is not with Voltaire when says "I disapprove what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."


There are also several other reasons why I do not like Christopher Schwarz.
- I think his relationships with some handtool makers is too close.
- I think he has several shortcomings in physics, mechanics and engineering.
- Normally I do not like Blogstars.
- And last, even if this is not my mother tongue, I think his speech is not the best.
But I think I have bored you alredy enough without the need to develop these arguments too.

I hope I have answered your question.


Auguste who apologizes for his bad English

[Richard Magbanua]

Not sure if your understanding of English is a problem, at least not enough to poke at someone else's. IMO it may just be the understanding our culture here. It seems illogical to many, I'm sure. For example, I notice freedom of speech and poor manners are frequently misunderstood.

In any case, I think it would be very enlightening for many if you could blog about these ideas. I know I would be sure to read it a probably ask questions and share my opinion as well.

Thank you for sharing and explaining. We're all here to learn. :)

[Mitch Barker]

Auguste, your English may not be perfect, but your thoughts come through perfectly. And expressing ideas clearly is the main goal of all writing.

Maybe you should start a blog of your own called the "sensible woodworker"? (name adapted from am audio magazine called the "sensible sound" that reviews and promotes value over ultimate sound perfection.)

Mitch

[Richard Magbanua]

or how about...
"Auguste Gusteau Anyone Can Woodwork" (try googling that one)

Just make sure Disney hasn't taken that yet.

BTW, would you be willing to sell one of those saws for $30? I'm sure you would do very, very well with that.

[phil harold]

So why i don't like Christopher Schwarz when every other woodworkers adores him?
Mainly because I do not like to follow the mass.
When everyone goes in a direction I like to go the opposite way.
It is not an easy life, mine. I have to hit a lot of people, many just laugh at me, others give me the shoulder, but most of the time I discover things that nobody else sees simply because they're all looking at the other way.


Auguste who apologizes for his bad English
Well Auguste,
If you dont like him dont go there and dont disrespect him
How about you start your own Blog on how to do it your way?
I think this would be a more positive for everybody
and provide more information for the woodworking world...

My Mama always told me:
"If you can't say something nice don't say anything at all..."

[Raney Nelson]

Auguste - I will try to be very clear about my response.

First - with regard to 'going the other way from the masses' - a Sheep who always moves away from the herd is every bit as mindless in its actions as the one who follows. He's just stuck in 'opposition'.

Second - you've spelled out why you dislike Chris Schwarz - and obviously have little respect for him. As a result, I find that your posts on his blog usually are offensive (I have seen most of them).

Third - What possible reason should he have for letting you come into HIS blog and continually disrupt him? A blog is not a public space. People are invited in for one reason only: to read the bloggers thoughts. Sometimes there is discussion of these, but what you describe yourself as is what we would call a heckler or troll: someone who comes to the place for the express reason of disagreeing with the speaker.

I've seen your 'arguments' and they are nothing new. There are always people who think they are superior because they own expensive tools; the group you seem to belong to is the one who feels superior because they own inexpensive tools. Both groups are arrogant and obnoxious as a rule.

You continue to berate as 'fashion' tools you have no experience with.

Not one thing I have mentioned above would be at all offensive to anyone if they were in YOUR own space. But when you take your 'mission' into someone else's space exactly BECAUSE you disagree with them - that is what we call a Troll. It is not considered good form by anyone but the troll.

Please - start your own blog. You can attack anyone you like there, and you can march in the opposite direction with all the other reverse-marchers. But personally I am interested in what Mr Schwarz has to say, and I would like to be able to read his thoughts without having to deal with the endless argumentation of a man whose goals apparently center around always being in conflict with others.



And finally - The Terms of Service here require you to use your real name. You are signed in with the name of a cartoon character - is that your given name?

[Richard Niemiec]

If Auguste is really a Troll, he certainly is doing a great job, as he's hooked a whole lot of fish here.... but somehow I just think he is a free thinker asking somewhat 'different' questions.

Just for the record, Chris does an OK job in his writings, and obviously gives a lot of thought to his work. While I may have some different opinions than he on a given topic (after all, opinions are like bellybuttons, everybody's got one), he's an interesting person who expresses himself well and overall is a distinct positive voice for our hobby, as editorially independent as one can be who works for an enterprise that relies on advertising revenue. I can't say as much for many other bloggers in other subject areas.

As far as his "dissing" Auguste, well, its Chris' blog and he is free to respond or not, or to delete posts or close comment. That's the "price" that must be paid by those who "follow a different drummer" (Auguste, that is an American phrase that means not following the crowd and taking your own path).

RN

[John Keeton]

These threads always disturb me, and I customarily avoid them simply because I come to SMC for woodworking knowledge, and to share those experiences with others in a positive setting. I can find negative circumstances without looking for them, and I do not care to share my personal life online.

That said, and knowing that I should not even post here, I offer a couple of observations. Auguste used very good English skills in the post to the PWW blog that I read - considerably better phrased than what one might expect from the posts here. And, then, there is this statement by Auguste "It is not an easy life, mine. I have to hit a lot of people..." That statement concerns me, and one could assume many things from that sort of attitude regarding others.

I disagree with many people, but there are very, very few, that I feel compelled to "convince" that I am right. I get paid to do that in my profession, and frankly, doing it 9-5 is enough. In my other world, I don't feel that compulsion. Obviously, others, and apparently Auguste, feel that need. It can be abrasive to others, and can stir emotions in many - as it has done here.

In the end, this thread will accomplish nothing more than leave many with opinions of others that may be unfairly formed, and inaccurate. It would be most helpful if these type threads are moved to the off topic forum. I rarely visit there because of the reasons stated above.

[Dave Anderson NH]

At this point in time I will issue the customary warnings that Big Brother is watching. So far things have been polite and respectful, if not particularly friendly. If this changes into a argumentative thread based on personalities rather than topics related to wooodworking my edit and delete buttons will go into overtime mode.

Philosophical disagreements and differieng opinions are fine. Personal attacks whether blatant or subtle will not be tolerated.

[Auguste Gusteau]

BTW, would you be willing to sell one of those saws for $30? I'm sure you would do very, very well with that.

Richard, belive me, sharpening a saw is not as difficult as it seems.

As say Leif on Norse Woodsmith blog: "Sharpening Hand Saws is as basic of a skill to woodworking as sharpening a chisel, and not much more difficult. Yet, some still quake with fear at the prospect, as if Odin himself will smite them should they dare put file to saw. Or, they think others can do the job better for them.... I will try hard to explain the processes of sharpening within, with my goal being to demystify the process. After that - practice is what is needed. Practice, practice, practice. You will fail during some of your first attempts, have no doubt... but at the worst, you will learn, and be the better for it.".

I endorse every single word, but I want to underwrite that practice is what is needed. Practice, practice, practice. You will fail during some of your first attempts, have no doubt as i failed. As i faild with my fist chisel handfree sharpening, as I failed with my first dovetail joint et cetera

[ken seale]

And finally - The Terms of Service here require you to use your real name. You are signed in with the name of a cartoon character - is that your given name?


Hahahahahaaa,

That should get the heavy handed mods attention.

:rolleyes:

[Auguste Gusteau]

John, I'm sorry I disturbed you.
I just tried to answer a question that Raney made me, as honestly as possible (can be said many things about me, but certainly I'm not an hypocrite).

Auguste who apologizes for his bad English

[Richard Magbanua]

Oh I can sharpen a saw, Auguste. That wasn't my point. I want you to produce a decent quality hand saw for fine woodworking that me and everyone else could purchase for $30. Now, be sure to include a money back guarantee and top notch customer service too. A website would be nice also. I like to be able to see pictures of these things ya know. Don't go and get an antique and sharpen it up. I have some of those already. I want something new that only I have used and can call my own and pass on to my children as such. Can you make it happen? This could be the start of a new and unsuccessful business venture!!!

[Brian Ashton]

*Snip*

I hope I have answered your question.


Auguste who apologizes for his bad English


Well all I can say is you sound like an extremely interesting fellow but! your wasting your time pursuing (dogging) the other guy, especially when you're on his turf (blog). Much more constructive endevours include pushing water up hill with a rake - seriously!

[Brian Ashton]

*Insults snipped*

And finally - The Terms of Service here require you to use your real name. You are signed in with the name of a cartoon character - is that your given name?

I'd say the axe you're trying to grind is bigger than his...

[Dan Karachio]

Two cents. Of all the woodshop gurus to have animosity towards, I think CS is very low on the list. I won't say who annoys me, but there are some who seem all about self promotion, but I don't know that so I just stay away. When it comes to gurus their value to me based on their work. CS does nice stuff, so does David marks and of course good old Norm who I think brings a bit of the carpenter approach which is, I think, a great thing. Could CS concentrate on woodworking on a budget? I suppose, but Norm's shop is no bargain basement collection either. David Marks in his show would often take the time to offer alternatives, but then he would hop on that 16" jointer, 20" bandsaw or multi router and make me drool like a St. Bernard puppy! :-)

You guys ever read about how Ben Franklin would create false identities and write conflicting letters in his publications to spice things up? Man, he would have loved the internet. I'm sure he would love Auguste too.

[Raney Nelson]

I'd say the axe you're trying to grind is bigger than his...

I'm sorry you felt my post was without merit and (apparently) amounted to a mere insult. I also regret if I inadvertently incited you or anyone else to pick up an axe of your own - it wasn't my intent.

I enjoy the internet for its access to certain 'places', including several forums and blogs - to me it's completely analogous to my feelings about some brick and mortar establishments. If someone came into my local microbrew pub daily, purely because they disapproved of such 'expensive' beverages, and felt the need to oppose the proprietor and customers for their consumption of 'fashion' drinks when mere Coors would give them the same amount of alcohol and be much more cost-effective - I imagine eventually I'd probably say something to them as well. There are many other places they could spend their time withg others of like mind - but some people are purely in it for enjoyment of the conflict, even though it's at the expense of others.

I didn't feel my post was insulting. Blunt - certainly. Critical - absolutely. I suppose troll or heckler could be taken as insults, but that doesn't make the comparison wrong, inappropriate, or unfair. Believe it or not, I'm working here to have a civil conversation about this without being unfairly argumentative. I have to say that I found your own dismissive reply to be at least as insulting as anything I posted...

I'm sorry that you were upset by my post, but I stand by it as true and appropriate. I also support your right to chastise me for making it.

[Richard Niemiec]

You guys ever read about how Ben Franklin would create false identities and write conflicting letters in his publications to spice things up? Man, he would have loved the internet. I'm sure he would love Auguste too.

Ah, the uncomfortable question... a classic. Why anyone would find this thread -disturbing- has me scratching my head. A little pot stirring is good for the soul, methinks.

RN

[jerry nazard]

You guys ever read about how Ben Franklin would create false identities and write conflicting letters in his publications to spice things up? Man, he would have loved the internet. I'm sure he would love Auguste too.

Gee, I bet Old Ben would have loved hanging out on one of the "other" woodworking forums.... <gr> A major reason why I enjoy The Creek so much, is that behavior of this type is not encouraged or tolerated. Trolls be gone!

-Jerry

[Richard Niemiec]

Gee, I bet Old Ben would have loved hanging out on one of the "other" woodworking forums.... <gr> A major reason why I enjoy The Creek so much, is that behavior of this type is not encouraged or tolerated. Trolls be gone!

-Jerry

Although you don't say that Auguste was trolling, in all honesty, I don't think he was trolling in this thread, if you look at the original post, all he did was ask a simple question; the rest of the thread is the reaction of the audience and his rather fair response. I don't think his "behavior" is of the "type" that is at all intolerable. That being said, if he is using a nom de guerre, that's another matter that does implicate the TOS.

[Richard Magbanua]

[QUOTE=You guys ever read about how Ben Franklin would create false identities and write conflicting letters in his publications to spice things up? Man, he would have loved the internet. I'm sure he would love Auguste too.[/QUOTE]

OK Chris, that's enough! You really had us going. Christopher Schwarz IS Auguste Gusteau! GENIUS!!! How great you are to provoke such conversation under a fake name. Cartoon Character no less!

[Richard Magbanua]

I think some of us here are all too familiar with Auguste and his game from reading Chris Schwarz's blog and the comments he leaves. He starts out with simple "innocent" questions which then turn negative, disrespectful and insulting. Bad English? I ain't buyin' it. Those of you who aren't familiar with his history may think we're a bit harsh and that's understandable. I just don't want those types of characters to infect what we have here.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Well,

We have drifted way off topic and are now giving personal opinions of people. This thread has long ago lost it's value and is now closed.