Filling cracks?

[Dan Forman]

So I left this last night - http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l279/T-Caster/P1020329.jpg

And found this in the morning - http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l279/T-Caster/P1020328.jpg

The bowl is apricot, 1/4" thick, a little thicker toward the bottom, and from a 9" blank.

I followed Bill Grumbine's video, he didn't mention any precautions for drying, so I left it out in the basement after turning it last night. I did a couple of other smaller NE bowls of apple for practice, and had no cracks with them.

I turned a 10" regular bowl (from the same apricot tree) that I DNA'd using the standard procedure, and it was showing some pretty serious cracks after a few days out of the DNA, so it could be something with this wood.

If you want to once turn a NE bowl, how do you dry it? Might the uneven thickness have caused the problem? Thanks.

Dan

[Mike Lipke]

As it continues to dry, over the next several months you may be surprised at how those cracks close up.

[Jeff Nicol]

Dan, If I am turning any fruit wood I will leave it much thicker and do the sealing with anchorseal and slow the drying down as slow as possible. The trouble with turning them thin right away is that they dry literally in seconds and something has to give! If the wood is strong enough to stay together and just warp that is the desired effect, but the fruit woods, ash, hickory, and many other woods just want to crack if turned to thin and not covered or sealed. With the NE the sapwood is less compact and not as bound together for lack of a better saying! If the wood was pretty fresh cut I think the sapwood is still softer and full of moisture and gives that moisture up much faster than some of the heart wood. This has been an ongoing problem for turners as long as there have been turners. So I would try the 10% of the diameter thickness rule for a rough out and slow the drying as much as possible then remount the piece to finish it. Some times I will do it in stages, rough it out, come back in a few months take off a 1/4" seal it again, then come back in a few months to finish it. I guess you can't be in to much of a hurry for greatness!

Good luck and have fun,

Jeff

[Norm Zax]

As Jeff mentiones, fruit wood is one of the most problematic in terms of cracking! Turn thicker, and immediately store in a closed bag with several wood chippings. Open after a few days for a quick breather and close up again (just to get rid of extra moisture and prevent mildew). Finally, hope for the best (read: make three and show only the one that doesnt crack, claiming its your only try). Even after DNA, Id bag fruit wood.
By the way, very nice bowl!
Norm

[Steve Schlumpf]

Dan - great looking bowl! As already mentioned - any fruit wood is prone to cracking! I've turned wood that had been cut and stored for 3 years - just to watch it crack like it was fresh cut! Jeff is correct in that you really have to slow the drying process down and even then it is an iffy situation.

Best of luck!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Dan,

I typically fill cracks with epoxy and crushed instant coffee crystals. The LOML bought a jar of instant coffee 27 years ago and I finally found a use for it. I crush the crystals and mix them with the epoxy. Usually the crack goes all the way through the bowl, so I use blue tape on the inside of the bowl to temporarily seal the crack and then pour the expoxy mixture into the crack. I pour it from the outside of the bowl, obviously.
I let it set over night and then re-turn it. The epoxy area turns, sands and finishes well and the dark contrast filler often adds to the beauty of the bowl. At least IMHO....:rolleyes:

Beautiful bowl BTW!

[curtis rosche]

once i get home and can find the link in favorites, i will send you a link to a site that sells epoxy that is perfect for this. it is runny so it fills in all the cracks easy. and its cheap. about $40 for a whole gallon. larger peices of apple will crack alot. theres alot of reaction wood in apple because of the way the tree grows and get pruned all the time. i have tried doing paper thin turning from apple. it works for small peices, but you have to find just the right peice to do something large

[Richard Madison]

Dan,
Amazing that the bark is intact. As mentioned, suggest you leave it exactly as is for a few months, cracks and all. The cracks may indeed close, partially or even completely. Had similar experience with an oak vase a while back. When the inside was partially turned the vase began to split, I thought beyond saving. Set it on a shelf and forgot about it. Happened to notice several months later that the cracks/splits had closed completely. Was able to complete and finish the vase with no visible cracks.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Fruit wood as has been said before it prone to cracking no matter how you treat it. I have used DNA, bag it with chips, anchorseal and they still crack. If I do 4 bowls from the same tree maybe 1 won't crack. I have did like Richard said just sit them on a shelf and I think it was 8 or 9 months later I happen to pull them down and 2 of the 3 had closed up tight but still hit them with CA thin. The other one I used coffee grounds and epoxy to fill the cracks. All three came out fine and have sold.

[Thom Sturgill]

I have Bill's first video and if I remember correctly he does put anchorseal on his rough-outs, but only on the end grain. The only fruit wood I have turned is citrus, and we have to turn it complete while fresh cut and apply finish or there is a mold that attacks it and turns it a nasty grey/brown.

[Dan Forman]

Thanks for the replies. I think at this point, filling is no longer an option. The wood around the cracks is twisting a bit, so it would be impossible to get a neat and tidy fill. I think I'll just finish it as is; the cracks look kind of cool with the bark bridging them but not splitting. On the other high spot where the wood didn't split, the bark has separated from the wood and formed an arch, so evidently it doesn't shrink as much as the wood does.

I have seen thicker bowls close up their cracks eventually, am hoping that the other apricot bowl I mentioned might do that, but watching this NE one, I doubt if that will happen, as thin as it is.

Thom --- On the second video, he doesn't use any anchorseal, just recommends letting the bowl dry a few days before sanding. That was apple, a wood notorious for cracking, so I thought this one would be safe, as I was told that apricot was one of the most stable of the fruitwoods. I guess stable is a relative term. I guess in the future I'll twice turn these if made with fruitwood.

Dan

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Hi Dan, there are 3 mayor problems with this bowl drying as it is.
First off sapwood will always shrink more than heartwood, so in this case it can only do that if it can move inward to make a smaller circle, but the heartwood is keeping it back, first because it will shrink less, but also it dries a little slower, and if it is thicker than the sapwood it will be stronger than the sapwood, and last but not least, it was left to dry TOO fast, wood will less likely split when given ample time to move.
And yes true some woods are more prone to splitting than others, still with care most do not need to split, of course there are exceptions, using wood with the pith in and very unstable like Lonicera that will split while growing, is a challenge to keep from splitting, and you might need to boil that kind of wood.

Now suggesting that those that say they don't have much splitting aren't showing the split ones is BS I think, I tell you that I have better than a 90% split-free outcome, with just brown bag drying, like it or not.

Have a look at the last few pictures of the bowls in my drying cabin in the link below, and see how many split bowls you see, I will also add a few pictures, still I'm sure there are those that know better and don't believe, sorry I can't help those :rolleyes: ;) :D

http://homepage.mac.com/l.vanderloo/PhotoAlbum26.html

[Dick Strauss]

Dan,
You did a really nice job on that piece. Too bad it is not cooperating!

I've had pieces close back up if you want to wait. If it doesn't close back up, you can keep it as is, accentuate the cracks, or fill them.

As others have said, it is probably drying too fast. Sometimes the cracks are already there and we as turners just don't turn away enough wood to get rid of the cracks.

As far as drying goes, I'd double bag if you live in a desert like environment (SE quarter of the WA state) or single bag if you're in a more moist area.

[Dan Forman]

Now suggesting that those that say they don't have much splitting aren't showing the split ones is BS I think, I tell you that I have better than a 90% split-free outcome, with just brown bag drying, like it or not.



Leo --- So you dry in a brown bag, with no DNA or Anchor Seal? How long do you let a 1" thick bowl dry? What is your humidity level? I"m about 45% right now in my basement, that will drop to 30 or 35% when the weather turns and the furnace is running.

Dick --- I'm in Spokane, so desert climate in the summer, Moist the rest of the time. My basement varies from mid 50's to 30's in humidity, dryer in winter than in summer.

Dan

[Norm Zax]

Seems someone was joking while someone else took it seriously. I'm sure that with experience a higher than 90% success rate is achievable. I'm also quite confident that some turners are less experienced and are quite happy to pass the 60%.
Have a good one,
Norm

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks,

There are so very many variables when dealing with drying wood. The effects of drying wood will vary depending the type of wood, where the wood came from...limb or trunk....and the humidity in the area where the turning is taking place.....and more I haven't placed here....IMHO....


A couple of years ago Nova did a show. An MD who was a marathoner did some tests running on a treadmill in a hyperbolic chamber where they could control both temperature and humidity. Probably everybody has heard "Well it's not as hot there because you don't have the humidity we do" Well guess what this study proved that statement correct and figured out why. I must have slapped my forehead a dozen times when it was explained.

If the air is already nearly saturated, your body's sweat doesn't evaporate as much and...your body doesn't cool down a quickly or as much as it would if you were in a dryer less humid atmosphere....you end up being hotter....DUH! I was blonde before I went white and started receding!

The same rule will apply to wood drying. If you live in an area with higher average humidity, wood will dry slower and I suspect you will have a higher success rate than someone like me who lives in near desert conditions. Our average annual rainfall is 12.5" per year IIRC. 2 1/2" less and we would be a desert. So.....wood will dry faster and I expect to have a lower success rate than someone in Arkansas, Mississippi, Texas, Lousiana, Florida, Coastal Washington State.....etc.

The important thing is to find what will work for YOU in the area Where YOU live. Don't be afraid to try other methods until you find one that works. Hey...it's just wood and it does, in fact, grow on trees!:D

[Bob Hallowell]

I have good success with green NE's by applying Antique Oil right off the lathe. And cutting the bottom slightly thinner than the top.

Bob

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Leo --- So you dry in a brown bag, with no DNA or Anchor Seal? How long do you let a 1" thick bowl dry? What is your humidity level? I"m about 45% right now in my basement, that will drop to 30 or 35% when the weather turns and the furnace is running.
/snip//snip/
Dan

Yes that's right Dan, no DNA or DD or Anchor Seal on rough turned pieces, exception are some trials I did to look for the differences the Anchor Seal would make.

I also tried the Dishwashing Detergent protocol, way back when, and my findings are I can't do any better than by slowing the drying.

As for the DNA, the only reason there are any improvement is because of the paper wrapping that is done, and then the storage that is done, not the alcohol.

No air-conditioning here, and my humidity is running around 65% right now, comes winter that drops down considerably because of the forced air heating we use here, my roughouts go to the drying cabin, not staying in the house as they sometimes do in the hot summer weather.

How long does it take ?? I very seldom return a piece before it has sat a month or two, especially if it is very big and thus thicker, since I have build a good number of rough turned pieces there's no reason to be hasty, and so some of my bowls have sat 4 or 5 years already and still are waiting.

But the moisture content goes down quite fast in the first few weeks, (when the bowl sits in the paper bag) it slows down after that, I rather wait a few weeks more and have a split and check-free piece than have a dry cracked and split piece that I have to try filling splits and checks with all kinds of crap, to make it look like that's an accomplishment or artful piece :rolleyes:

The brown bag drying works like a kiln without the expertise and costs and constant monitoring that you would need to do, if you had one, and also without the heat.

As a new wet green turned bowl goes right away into a brown craft paper bag (no showing off the piece first) the humidity in the bag goes right away to total saturated, the drying at that point stops, but the paper will now absorb moisture, so the saturation goes down and the bowl will be able to loose some moisture again, (now the critical part) the surrounding air and temperature of the paper bag will dictate how fast that moisture from the paper bag is wicked away.

If there's a draft or heating, the drying will go faster, that is not good, especially in the beginning, so find a cool place and draft free, (not next to a door or under a window as there are natural drafts created) and place your bag there, go and have a look in a few days to see how things are, maybe some mildew has started, just wipe it off and get another bag, let the wet bag dry so you can use it again later, the mildew will stop growing if there's any when the humidity get too low for it.

You will find the weight going down over the next week or two, three, just use your God given censes, and you can feel the weight and wetness going down, when it feels lighter and dryer you can take it out of the bag and set it dow again where you had it, leave it there till you feel it is dry enough or that you can place it in a little dryer environment to finalize the drying.

Return when you want to, and no this is not 100% fool-proof, but very close.
Have fun and take care :D

[Richard Madison]

Note the comments from Ken and Leo. It's all about the ambient relative humidity. Some of us might do better to bag in plastic with a few small holes. And be very patient. Some years ago I plastic bagged an oak rough-out. When I rediscovered it a year or more later and finish turned it there was quite a nice vase under all the green and black grunge.

[Dan Forman]

I just noticed in the Ernie Conover bowl turning book, he recommends a similar sequence as Leo, wrapping in newspaper for 3 weeks or so, then unwrapping and letting sit about another month. Think I'll try a few with the Leo/Ernie method and see how it works. I'm not that impressed with my results using the DNA, relatively few get through without any cracks. I'll report back on my results.

Dan