Poor Adhesion on Brass Pen Tubes

[Larry Lukens]

This seems like a really basic question, and I haven't seen it asked in this forum. I'm using PSI penturners CA glue, the stuff in the pink bottle. It's supposed to be gap-filling. I rough up the tubes with 400 grit paper; slather CA all over the tube; twist it on the way in; make sure the blank is wetted on both ends.

I still get a lot of poor adhesion, which usually shows up as voids or splits. Most of my recent blanks have been walnut, since that's what I have. I also experienced it on an ebony blank today.

Is there a secret to getting a good glue job? I am reluctant to start gluing up expensive blanks until I can get consistently good adhesion.

All my pens to date have been slimline, and I suspect that the extremely thin veneer on the tube makes a bad glue joint show up more than if the wood were thicker. But I'd rather get this right than camouflage it by leaving more wood.

Thanks.

[Chris Rae]

I rough my tubes with a coarse grit sandpaper, usually 100 grit. I've never had any glue failures. I feel that the coarser grit gives deeper gouges in the brass tube and a better gripping surface. At least it has worked for me.

[Larry Lukens]

Thanks, Chris. I'll try that.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I am with Chris on this one. I use 80 grit on my tubes and quit using CA. I use 5 minute epoxy if I am doing one or two pens. More than that I use 30 minute epoxy. Never had one fail.

[Larry Lukens]

I was wondering about epoxy. Thanks, Bernie.

[Gary Herrmann]

I've never used finer than 150 grit and 90% of the time I use gorilla glue. You can't turn it immediately, but I've had no problems with adhesion. That said, once you try other methods, if you're using a drill press to make the holes, you might want to check runout to ensure you're not making the hole too big even if you're using the right sized bit.

[Steve Kubien]

I do NOT sand my tubes and use 5-minute epoxy. Failure rate...maybe 0.5%? I like those odds.

[John Terefenko]

You got alot of good advice and I would like to add my 2 cents. I too only use epoxy and have never had a failure. That was a good point about using the right bit for the tube and kit and also making sure there is no runout on your drill press which would cause a larger hole.

The other thing you mentioned about cracking. Wood such as ebony have a tendency to crack even after you have it finished. The thinner the blank the worse it gets. Good luck.

[Scott Hackler]

I rough mine up with 100 grit or so and squirt 2 drops of el-cheapo CA down the hole in the blank. I then rotate the blank to coat the inside and twist the brass tube while inserting it. I have had real good luck doing this and only a few times have I had the tube come out.

One time though, I didnt "mill" out the inside good enough and glued the tube onto the mandrel! That one got destroyed getting it off the mandrel!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Larry,

While I use CA as a finish on pens, I quit using it to glue the barrels in after a couple of failures. I, too, use only epoxy for that job. No failures since I switched.

[Chris Stolicky]

After about 125 pens or so, here is what I have learned:

Like most woodworking projects, patience is what is needed for a good final product (especially when finishing). With that said:

- If it wood, I use gorilla glue, and wait at least over night
- If its non-wood, use 2-part epoxy and wait at least over night

CA can be come brittle and can result in failures in either turning, or in lack of flexibility when your material expands/contracts in the future.

With that said, I will use CA for finishing (although results can vary) or occasionally when segmenting.

I hope this helps.

Note: I do also rough up the brass tubes. I use readily available sandpaper between 80-150 grit. This is a debated topic, but I think it helps. No actual experience either way though.

[Thom Sturgill]

Another switch to epoxy after CA failures, non since. I sand with whatever scrap of sandpaper comes to hand.:D

[robert hainstock]

I use 120 -150 grit, with one pass to prepare the tube. And after about ten slimlines, with accompaning CA glue failure , switched to epoxy. The blank splitting problem, especially with Ebony is most likely caused by drilling too fast and overheating the resins in the wood. There are special drill bits tat supposedly address this issue, and some even go so far as to water cool the drill. I personaly haven't tried either method, but do try to drill slower on suspect woods. The following is a short list of woods that have split on my pens. Ebony (5), wallnut (1), Olive wood (1), Pink Ivory (1), Katalox (1), and curly maple(1). while this may seem a high number of failures, I suspect that in most cases other than the ebony that it is our very dry (winter) climate that is most likely to blame. To this end, I now try to seal the blank end grain with CA before I assemble the pen. :eek::):)
Bob

[Daniel Heine]

Larry,

I switched from CA to 5 minute epoxy and was still having problems with tube adhesion. I recently switched to SUMO glue, made by Loctite, and it works a lot better. You'll need a sharp bench knife to trim away the excess glue after drying, but it does not let loose and fills gaps very nicely.

Dan

[Bernie Vail]

Several people mentioned both 5 minute epoxy and 30 minute epoxy. Could someone please give me a brand name for these items? Not familiar with either. Thanks

Bernie

[John Terefenko]

Any epoxy made for wood and metal and plastic works. Go to home depot or lowes and look in the glue isles. I happen to use system 3 epoxy but that is a bit more expensive but I do alot of other work that requires epoxy.

[David Walser]

Bernie,

There are "name brand" epoxies available. (System Three is one such brand.) I've had good luck with the house brand at my local Ace or TrueValue hardware store. Recently, I needed to repair something for my in-laws and found some quality epoxy at their local Home Depot. Epoxy is not new technology and the generics seem to work quite well.

When buying epoxy, I first tried the epoxies that are packaged as a double syringe. I thought it would be easier to get equal amounts of the two parts that way. I was very disappointed and frustrated with this packaging -- it seems one component always comes out more easily than the other and trying to get an equal mixture from the double syringe is all but impossible. I much prefer the packaging in separate tubes or bottles.

HTH

[Jim McFarland]

West System epoxy if you will use a lot of it -- the pumps are "idiot-proof" -- just what I need!

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=20016&cat=1,110,42965

I recommend the #206 (slower cure) kit which will let you do more pens on a single mix.

These 1 ounce mixing cups are just the right size for a single pump of West System resin & hardener. I can do 10+ Sierras (5+ cap pens or slimlines) with a 1 ounce mix.

http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=2&p=20009&cat=2,2070,33135

Wooden Wonders 5 minute epoxy if you won't use a lot or don't have other uses for epoxy -- near the bottom of this page:

http://woodenwonderstx.com/WWBlue/NewGlueWS.html

[Steve Mellott]

I sand the tubes and use 5 minute epoxy. I also make sure the drilled holes are clear of any chips or dust.

Steve

[Jason Solodow]

I did about 200 pens in the last two weeks (craft show this weekend) that were a mix of wood, acrylic, and alternative materials.. I rough my tubes with 220 grit and use 2 part epoxy.. 0 failures on this batch. Last major batch was done with Medium CA glue and I had about 15-20 failures out of 200.. Just my $0.02

[ron hossack]

Interesting insight here ...

I do sand a crosshatch pattern with 100 grit.

For wood and acrylic I use JB-Kwik because it sets in 4 minutes and
I'm turning ...

However, I've experimented with glues for pine bark and red fir bark.

I was having troubles with the bark adhering to the brass tube.

At first I thought it was the CA not sticking properly but when a blowout would occur there was bark stuck to the brass.

Tried 5 minute epoxy and the same results.

Then I tried Sumo PU glue and I've not had a failure since. I don't know if the PU is giving better and/or more even adhesion or what.

[Chuck Bryant]

I use 100 grit to rough the tubes and medium CA glue. I have had no problems with failures.

[robert hainstock]

Several people mentioned both 5 minute epoxy and 30 minute epoxy. Could someone please give me a brand name for these items? Not familiar with either. Thanks

Bernie

In my opinion, the problem with most "5min" and "30"min epoxies is that they wre not specificly formulated for bonding to wood. The brand I use is "Brownells acraglas". While it does have a 4 hour cure time, It has superior adhesion to wood, and cleans up with household vineger. It is a product thatI have used for over thirty years for any number of glue ups and repairs. It has an extremely long shelf life unlike other epoxies that I have tried over the years. It has superior adhesion also. While there will be those who don't have four hours time to wait for the cure, at my advancing age I have all the time in the world. I also use gun cleaning brushes of various calibers to clean the residue out of the tubes. Good luck with your search. :)
Bob

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bernie,

I buy my 5 minute epoxy from a local Ace Hardware and it is there store brand. I haven't had a tube failure yet using it.

[Steve Mellott]

My 5 minute epoxy is branded as "System Three." I think I bought it at either Woodcraft or Rockler. On the label, it says it "bonds wood, fiberglass, concrete, ceramics, glass and leather." It also says "you can quickly use it to assemble jewelry and other small items."