cherry lumber disappointment

[John Piwaron]

Perhaps I'm expecting to much. OTOH, maybe not.

I just got back from my lumber dealer. I was lookin' for some 5/4 cherry. While their bins had a lot of it, all boards had plenty of sapwood. I was able to pick two out that were mostly heart, but still had plenty of sapwood to cut around or otherwise deal with.

Two things come to mind - the first is the lumber itself. Is this just the state of things today with cherry? Would I be able to get all heartwood cherry somewhere else, like if I mail ordered boards I needed?

Second, if sapwood is the modern norm, how is everyone else dealing with it? Stain the whole project, dyeing the sap to match the heart, or what? I'm seeing great looking cherry projects here and there, and they all look evenly colored. What'd they do? Get lucky?

What's your take on this?

[James Giordano]

I guess it depends on what is available in your area. But around here(central New York) I would expect a better selection than that. I would at least expect the boards too be fairly wide with sap only on the edges and none on the back in any thickness other than 4/4. I am a sawyer and I usually use narrow 4/4 to get through the sap and into the good stuff.
Of course this is IMHO and still it depends on what is available in your area. Cherry is plentiful here and we get much of it from PA which is top quality.
Just my penny and 1/2 FWIW.

[Chuck Wintle]

I think a lot of high quality Cherry is available and its all in knowing where to look. I read an article about a sawmill somewhere in Pennsylvania that dealt only in cherry and it is an abundant species.

[Steve Evans]

John

I'm finding around here (southern Ontario) that cherry prices have gone up and/or quality has gone down. I think that with the popularity of cherry right now, that they're harvesting trees that could use a bit more growing still, thus resulting in moe sapwood.

Steve

[Greg Heppeard]

We get some pretty good cherry here, but I know for a fact that the really good stuff is bussed in.

[John Piwaron]

Greg, where's "here?"

I'm gettin' willing to do some driving, but within reason. I'm in SE Wisconsin (Milwaukee). I guess I gotta try somewhere other than Kettle Moraine Hardwood.

Heck, it'd be great to find a sawyer to get a whole log, assuming the whole log is any good.

[Todd Burch]

When you specify quality for cherry, it is common to specify "all heart one face". All heart two faces would be difficult to find I assume. Finding good cherry, however, is the tough part. Perhaps the best yield ($$) for mills today for primo cherry is selling it for veneer or exporting it. When I specify "no sapwood", the price goes up about 25%. So, I don't specify it unless the client wants to pay for it.

I'm not familiar with the NHLA rules for grading, but be sure that the grade your supplier is selling meets the NHLA rules for what you are getting. (I suspect this isn't a big problem overall though.)

[James Giordano]

Todd, I know a little about the NHLA rules though I am no expert. I don't think that cherry is graded for color.

You're right about the veneer. We sell a lot of cherry logs for veneer.

[Jim Becker]

Virtually all the cherry I buy is heart both sides and sap only appears on really wide boards. I guess I'm lucky, but it's been that way at several suppliers since I first started woodworking. Where you are can definitely affect the supply, so you might consider ordering in a quanity from an area more "rich" in cherry, such as PA or NY states. http://www.hearnehardwoods.com is one of the suppliers I patronize for cherry, although usually for more figured material. I have a more local source for "regular" stuff, but he doesn't ship and only accepts cash.

[John Piwaron]

Thanks for the link to Hearne Hardwoods. I've mail ordered before, but the problem there is shipping. I've always gotten nice boards that way.

Todd, the problem with all heart on one face is when the part being cut will be seen on end or edge. Sapwood just doesn't look good.

I must point out I'm a hobbyist, not a pro. Buying large quantities just isn't in the cards.

And I've yet seen a reply that addresses the issue of coloring the sapwood to match. Is this not done? Do others simply live with the color difference?

[Jim Becker]

John, the problem with coloring sapwood is that the heartwood is going to change color over time...significantly...and you cannot anticipate fully in advance what it ultimately will look like dark/light.

As to ordering quantities...get together with one or more woodworking friends and put in a larger order, both to get better pricing and to leverage the shipping cost better. Have it delivered to the trucking terminal to save money. (residential delivery by truck, if even available, costs bucks!)

[Greg Leighty, Chattanooga TN]

I had been looking for a good place to buy hardwood lumber. Well, last week I found it :) . I found a guy who has wood mizer. He and he son in law cut lumber on the side. They had everything I wanted and more. I got 150BF of some real nice cherry for $1.75, 100BF of Walnut for $1.50 and 100BF of Maple for $.75. I am going to go back and get some oak for $.60. They made sure they did not short change me. I had my little trailer weighted down. The other local hardwood lumber companys were asking $5 BF :eek: for cherry and walnut, and $2-$3 :mad: for maple and oak.

Keep looking, you will find better lumber at a good price.

[James Giordano]

Wow. :eek: good deal

[Jim Becker]

I got 150BF of some real nice cherry for $1.75, 100BF of Walnut for $1.50 and 100BF of Maple for $.75. The local supplier I often buy from sells me furniture-quality air-dried cherry for about $2.50 bd ft. He's well into his 80s, but manages to cut it, seal it, stack it and sell it quite successfully...for about 42 years now, according to him. His son is now involved in the business and hopefully he will continue in the same tradition into the future. The other suppliers in the area ask $5 and up!

[Kurt Aebi]

I really like the varigation you get with the mixed Heart & Sapwood - but that is just me, I always just clear coat my cherry projects and let them age naturally.

But I do know for a fact that the Cherry from SW PA and WV usually does not have much "Sapwood" Most of it has a rich salmon color with very little ~1" or so per tree of the lighter sapwood - at least that is my experience from the lumber my family has harvested in that region. The Walnut in the deep SW corner - that is another story - The LAurel Summit region is much better for walnut.

[Steven Wilson]

...if sapwood is the modern norm, how is everyone else dealing with it?

I am disapointed with the Cherry available at my normal suppliers, so I use something else, mainly walnut. When decent cherry is available I buy some and save it for a rainy day.

[John Piwaron]

Well, bottom line - I've been using Kettle Moraine Hardwood, but it seems their selection is not what it once was. I'm going to search for some different suppliers. Woodmizer guys, other lumber dealers, mail order.

I'm aware of cherry's darkening properties, I've used it before on a bathroom cabinet (shaker style w/ raised panel doors) and a self designed chest of drawers for my son.

The curious part is that even though FWW has published stories on making sapwood match heartwood, other than the author of that article, it seems that no one does it, or mentions doing it. I did recently see a picture of an armoire someone built of cherry where they said they stained it a mahogany color. Why use cherry if you're going to stain to that extreme? That's my point. I like using wood with a pleasing grain pattern and color.

I'm in Milwaukee, if anybody knows somebody with lumber or wants to go in on a order somewhere, give 'em my name and email address.

[Bob Reda]

Sapwood is not considered a defect when grading cherry. Even here in SW Pa you see sapwood in cherry.

[Lynn Sonier]

Went to a lumber yard in Baton Rouge a couple of weeks ago. They had a policy posted everywhere that you had to take the pieces on top - you couldn't root around and find the best pieces. That can be good and bad - if there's a bad piece on top, nobody will ever buy it. But, baring this, it seems like you have a good chance of getting good wood, not everybody's else rejects.

[Jim Becker]

Sapwood is not considered a defect when grading cherry. Even here in SW Pa you see sapwood in cherry.
This is true for both Cherry and Walnut. But careful selection at your supplier can minimize or eliminate any sap, at least on the good face. But remember when you are planing to thickness that the deliniation between the sap and heart is not necessarily "vertical"...this may be one of those times when you need to take more off the "back" than you do off the "front...leaving it slightly thick, sticker appropriately to let it acclimate and then remill slightly to final thickness.


Went to a lumber yard in Baton Rouge a couple of weeks ago. They had a policy posted everywhere that you had to take the pieces on top - you couldn't root around and find the best pieces. That can be good and bad - if there's a bad piece on top, nobody will ever buy it. But, baring this, it seems like you have a good chance of getting good wood, not everybody's else rejects.
Not a place I would shop if given the choice. Picking lumber is the first step of the FINISHING process and you need to deal with grain and color as part of the process.

[John Piwaron]

when you are planing to thickness that the deliniation between the sap and heart is not necessarily "vertical"...this may be one of those times when you need to take more off the "back" than you do off the "front".

Yep, I've done this. Given the piece being worked with, this can end up yielding a really nice part.


Not a place I would shop if given the choice.

ditto

[John Piwaron]

Sapwood is not considered a defect when grading cherry. Even here in SW Pa you see sapwood in cherry.

Yes, I've had conversations with the lumber guy about this. It's true that every board he has meets the definition of FAS, but still has the sap/heartwood coloring. I think that visually speaking, it IS a defect. But that just me, and with this project, I don't want the look that having a lot of sapwood would give me. In another project, sure, no problem. I'd pick a project just for that. But not this one.

[ken straby]

I am in eastern ontario & get my cherry from a small mill in west quebec
the lat batch was 1000 bd ft and came from 2 30" trees
the boards were 8' long and 6-12" wide 1" thick all furniture grade
they cost me $3 a bd ft cdn Cash picked up
i also got some 4x4 7 6x6 just in case a project came up
this lumber was air dried 2 years
i can buy the same stuff kil dried commercially for $11.50 cdn plus taxes

[Greg Cole]

Some custom lumber sellers offer to steam the cherry. The steaming helps to blend the color variations and allows the red coloring to be "sucked" up into the sapwood. I've bought a few packs of steamed cherry from Internetlumber.com and the 20 boardfoot packs are sold with free shipping (more like its included in the sale price). I was very happy with the steamed cherry and had absolutely no sap wood in over 60 bf.
I am guessing one could steam the cherry at home or in the shop, but I don't know enough about the process to offer any insight.

[Larry Fox]

I second the recomendation on HearneHardwoods. Their selection in cherry is outstanding. I was there last weekend and they had a very nice selection of 4/4, 5/4, 8/4 stock. You can get wide and figured stock in quantity as well if that is your bag. They ship also.

[Karle Woodward]

Anybody here try the chemical (I don't recall the name) that turns sapwood the same color as the heartwood. No it's not stain. I've never tried it but it supposedly works well and would solve the sapwood problem.

[Greg Cole]

Never tried any chemical on cherry, but steaming it works well to even out the color variations and to darken up the sapwood. I don't know the exact process for steaming, but some lumber sellers offer steamed cherry (internetlumber.com). I have used about 60BF from them and have been very happy with it, but I avoid buying the common grade and pay a little more for the Select Grade (saves buying the extra 10+% for waste factor). Shipping is included in the sales price, although they try to tell you it's "free"....
Hearne Hardwoods gets lots of props here and for good reason. I am in Kansas City and I have no problem what-so-ever buying from them and paying the shipping (it's cheaper than buying from the hardwood retailers here in town!) and the quality is GREAT.
I was leery of letting someone pick my sticks for me, but once I had the sitcks in hand all concerns were simply a waste of thoughts.

[Calvin Hobbs]

I needed some wide 5/4 a few months ago. No chance of finding anything of here locally, so I called Irion hardwoods in Pennsylvania.

I know it is not the cheapest, but Irion picked out matching boards for my project and the lumber was VERY high quality.

The three boards I got the the table top were 100" + by 14, 16 and 19" wide by 5/4 with no sap.

See this post to see the lumber

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=40219&highlight=tavern+table

Cal

[Dan Larson]

John, I often shop at Kettle Moraine, too. Whenever I'm looking for something special or just want better quality & selection, I head down to Owl Hardwoods in Chicago.
http://www.owlhardwood.com/

It's more expensive... but they tend to have better stock than Kettle Moraine.

Dan

[Samuel A. Livingstone]

Cherry heartwood/sapwood.

The NHLA used to require measured area to be all red. Some years back as other author stated sapwood is now allowed. The amount of sapwood is unlimited. Frequently outer boards on a log will have more Sapwood. My suppler sells all heart-1 face- cherry. Of course, the price is higher for the sapwood that is removed during resawing and used to heat the sales area to keep moisture down.

I am in central NY with PA and NY cherry is plentiful. The northern NY Appalachian cherry is usually inferior in color and widths.

I usually purchase the best that I can find. The lumber costs for furniture is not that high a percentage of total costs.

Sam Livingstone

[Lee Schierer]

Around here (Northwest PA) cherry is hard to come by at all. It is the "in" wood right now and all the builders and cabinet making companies are sucking up the good stuff. A young friend wanted to make cherry cabinets and looked for nearly 6 months before we happened to find some at a local farm auction. My local hardwood supplier says he can't keep it in stock and he has backorders he can't fill.

Unless you get a deal on the sapwood pieces I would keep looking.

[Gregory Stahl]

You have got to go elsewhere, I am not a fan of the location you mention. Many folks around here like that place, but I thought the selection was terrible when I was there. For being a sawmill, I expect more than a few hundred bf of maple or cherry to be on hand on any day--especially since it is so plentiful in this region. I have to admit though, I was happy with the 8/4 cherry I got from them for what I paid for it.

Brunsell Lumber and Millwork in Madison is a decent place. Yes, it costs a bit more for basic maple and cherry, but the stacks are plentiful allowing one to be picky even when buying a couple hundred bf. One price per species per bf here. They don't charge extra for wide boards or for maple that is more white in color, unlike KMH.

My long-term solution is to buy a small sawmill. I called a few logging companies and got some good quotes on cherry logs. Some will even let you pick the logs from their timber yard. I just have to convince the wife to let me get the sawmill! :)

Also, watch craigslist and other sources. I bought about 150 bf of cherry for $175 a year ago! We have many small sawyers operating around our state.

Greg Stahl - Oregon, WI

[Dave Tinley]

Jonn-
Check out these guys-http://www.palumber.com/Monthly_Special.html
They do ship and the cherry I have gotten seems to be pretty good.
Of course down in my area, any cherry whould be good :D

Dave