Joints for kitchen drawers

[Roger Jensen]

I have about 18 kitchen drawers to build and I'm planning on using pre-finished plywood for drawers (with one prefinished edge). While half-blind dovetails would be nice looking and very strong, I'd rather not spend that much time on the drawers.

Any recomendations for alternatives? I'd like something that looks better than just a butt joint and pocket screws, and I don't like working with biscuits.

Thanks,

Roger

[paul cottingham]

Lee Valley sells a drawer joint router bit that works pretty well. Just put a drawer front on it.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=30107&cat=1,46168,46174&ap=1
You need a router table, tho'

[Roger Jensen]

Thanks Paul. I have tried a similar bit (from Whiteside), but I get a lot of splintering when working with 1/2 inch plywood. I think these types of drawer bits work best with solid wood. I'm currently trying to go with pre-finished ply.

Roger

[Jim Podsedly]

I have used the joint depicted in the thread. Somebody else posted this picture a while back.

I did not want all the tear our with using plywood and this joint seems quite strong.


See this thread for the picture.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=104062

jim

[Roger Jensen]

Hi Jim,

That's the type of joint I'm looking at too. I think a couple of Miller dowels in each corner will ensure it stays together. I saw Marc Summerfeld using them in his joints and they looked pretty strong.

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

Roger, the drawer lock bit is heading in the right direction. For me, the only joint to use is the lock miter (http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2001400/WHITESIDE-Lock-Miter-Bits.aspx). It only requires 1 setup. 2 really: bit height and fence depth. Once you get it dialed in, you don't move either one for either fronts/backs and sides. Run the fronts/backs face up on the table and the sides face out and perpendicular to the table on the fence.
Where I like the lock miter bit over the drawer lock bit is there is no calculations to make when dimensioning your plywood. I.E., If you need your finished drawer outside dimensions to be 14" X 22", you cut all your fronts/backs 14" and your sides 22". If you used a drawer lock bit or hb dovetails you have to do some calculations for the dovetail height or rabbit offset. No big deal when you're only making a handful of drawers all the same size, but can be a headache when your making 20 drawers of various dimensions. Keep it simple. I've made drawers in the hundreds this way. Side note: I recommend using 3/4" for the sides and 1/2" bottoms. Don't skimp and use 1/4"
For those of you worried about tearout, cut your stock wider than you need (making the drawers taller) then after it's all glued up, cut them to final size on table saw.
PS Brad Townsend made a real fine Lock Miter Fence but for the life of me, I can't seem to find the thread.

[Roger Jensen]

Hi Jim,

I'll give this a try, as I already have the bit and have used it with MDF sides in the past. Did you use it with plywood sides? I like the idea of using stock that is the exact same width and depth as the finished product, but I don't want a lot of tearout. Since I plan on use drawer-stock with one finished side I don't have the luxury of making the sides extra tall to allow for trimming off the tearout (with this kind of bit I can't always lead with the pre-finished edge into the router bit - of course I could use a sacrificial board on the trailing edge to minimize the damage).

Thanks,

Roger

[glenn bradley]

Quick and reliable; pocket holes and glue on the front and rear panel. The false front covers them up front and the rear ones are . . . well, . . . in the rear.

I prefer the drawer lock joint and have no problems in BB ply when I score the problem area with a razor knife. A backerboard prevents blowout at the rear. If your backer doesn't always work, clamp it to the keeper; sometimes just using it as a "pusher" doesn't provide enough pressure to prevent blowout. I use the Whiteside #3347. Speaking of which, I find drawerlock bits that are not clean and super sharp have issues regardless of the setup. The surfaces of a drawerlock bit are easily touched up with a diamond stone. I tend to give mine a touch up before every drawer making session.

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

Hi Jim,

I'll give this a try, as I already have the bit and have used it with MDF sides in the past. Did you use it with plywood sides? I like the idea of using stock that is the exact same width and depth as the finished product, but I don't want a lot of tearout. Since I plan on use drawer-stock with one finished side I don't have the luxury of making the sides extra tall to allow for trimming off the tearout (with this kind of bit I can't always lead with the pre-finished edge into the router bit - of course I could use a sacrificial board on the trailing edge to minimize the damage).

Thanks,

Roger
Hi Roger, I used 3/4" birch plywood for sides and 1/2" BB for bottoms. I don't understand what you mean when you say you don't have the luxury of making the sides extra tall. The sacrificial board helps but it's not fool proof.

[Jerome Hanby]

Think this may be it (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=81019&highlight=fence&page=2). I can't see the picture from work, but the post looks right.


Roger, the drawer lock bit is heading in the right direction. For me, the only joint to use is the lock miter (http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2001400/WHITESIDE-Lock-Miter-Bits.aspx). It only requires 1 setup. 2 really: bit height and fence depth. Once you get it dialed in, you don't move either one for either fronts/backs and sides. Run the fronts/backs face up on the table and the sides face out and perpendicular to the table on the fence.
Where I like the lock miter bit over the drawer lock bit is there is no calculations to make when dimensioning your plywood. I.E., If you need your finished drawer outside dimensions to be 14" X 22", you cut all your fronts/backs 14" and your sides 22". If you used a drawer lock bit or hb dovetails you have to do some calculations for the dovetail height or rabbit offset. No big deal when you're only making a handful of drawers all the same size, but can be a headache when your making 20 drawers of various dimensions. Keep it simple. I've made drawers in the hundreds this way. Side note: I recommend using 3/4" for the sides and 1/2" bottoms. Don't skimp and use 1/4"
For those of you worried about tearout, cut your stock wider than you need (making the drawers taller) then after it's all glued up, cut them to final size on table saw.
PS Brad Townsend made a real fine Lock Miter Fence but for the life of me, I can't seem to find the thread.

[Matt Meiser]

The pocket holes are hidden behind the drawer front and on the backside of the drawer the way I do them (which I learned from Mark Singer.) The only time you ever see them is if you pull out a drawer.

Miller Dowels or Dominos work too.

[David DeCristoforo]

Still another way... For many years now I have used rabbet and groove joints for drawers on "less than top quality" projects. The joint is plenty strong enough for drawers that are going to be mounted on hardware glides. The way I make then, the tongue formed by the rabbet is "nipped" at the top and the groove in the drawer sides is stopped about 1/4" from the top edge. That way, you don't see the joint so it looks very "clean".

[Roger Jensen]

David,

Is your joint like this one except for nipping the tongue of the rabbit?

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=109629&d=1234281850

Thanks,

Roger

[Chip Lindley]

Zactly what I would suggest! These half rabbets make strong drawers when glued and pinned.

Using pocket-hole screws is rather labor intensive for drawer building. You are limited to 3/4" thick drawer sides which are not needed for strength, and are a waste of usable space. 1/2" stock is plenty for all but the most heavy-duty kitchen drawers. Skimp on drawer quality if you must, but don't skimp on usable space!

David's half-rabbet solution assures that the drawer assemblies almost fall into place for assembly!

[Steve Clardy]

Lower end cabs I butt joint. Glue and brad nail. Never had one to fail.

Higher end, I use half blind dovetails.

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

David,

Is your joint like this one except for nipping the tongue of the rabbit?

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=109629&d=1234281850

Thanks,

Roger

This is the kind of construction that gets me head scratching. There are 3 time consuming setups required, not to mention considerable math.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Is your joint like this one except for nipping the tongue of the rabbit?"

Yes, except that I use the R&G at both front and back. I don't see any advantage in using a different joint at the back. It's just that many more setups you have to do. It the fronts were DT'd, maybe the dado at the back. But once you're set up for the R&G, why not do all the corners with the same setup?

[jerry nazard]

"Is your joint like this one except for nipping the tongue of the rabbit?"

Yes, except that I use the R&G at both front and back. I don't see any advantage in using a different joint at the back. It's just that many more setups you have to do. It the fronts were DT'd, maybe the dado at the back. But once you're set up for the R&G, why not do all the corners with the same setup?

Exactly. 1/2 ply for sides and bottoms. Quick and dirty!!

[Russ Kay]

You could also use sliding dovetails to fit the sides into the front. Strong joint and not too much trouble to make.

With regard to pocket-hole joinery, I just got a new flyer from Woodcraft showing a new Kreg jig designed specifically for material thinner than 3/4", so that would be a credible option.

[Peter Quinn]

not[/I] needed for strength, and are a waste of usable space.

David's half-rabbet solution assures that the drawer assemblies almost fall into place for assembly!

Sorry Chip, but you are wrong on all but the last account. David's rabbits ARE a good way to go.

You can most certainly make drawers with pocket screws in 1/2" material using 1" #6 small pan head screws (which Kreg makes and sells mainly for this purpose). It takes me MAYBE 35 seconds to set up the jig and not much longer to drill the holes with a high speed drill. And if you hot melt glue the bottoms in from below, which takes about another 13 seconds, you can't break them apart without a hammer and some real aggression. Fast, strong, and completely devoid of any sense of craftsmanship.

I prefer the rabbits for low end drawer boxes, particularly with prefinished plywood, because it gives some glue surface and final assembly is relatively simple. But I have made drawer boxes in the field, on the fly, with nothing more than a chop box, a plunge router and a pocket hole jig. And without taking off the drawer front, there is no way to tell the difference. So they do have there place.

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

"Is your joint like this one except for nipping the tongue of the rabbit?"

Yes, except that I use the R&G at both front and back. I don't see any advantage in using a different joint at the back. It's just that many more setups you have to do. It the fronts were DT'd, maybe the dado at the back. But once you're set up for the R&G, why not do all the corners with the same setup?


Totally agree, Dave. I never understood why Norm cut HB dovetails in the front and a dado in the back. Why not cut dovetails back there too? It looks better and probably no more time to cut, given you won't have to setup the dado. Gain some drawer space to boot.

[Sean Nagle]

Lower end cabs I butt joint. Glue and brad nail. Never had one to fail.

Higher end, I use half blind dovetails.

I read an article where a cabinetmaker said that dovetails in modern cabinetry [using ball bearing drawer slides] are an anachronism. Long ago when drawer slides were simply the drawer side riding on a piece of wood, dovetail joints made sense. Anymore they are purely cosmetic.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...dovetail joints made sense. Anymore they are purely cosmetic..."
I am in total agreement with this. It also has to do with the fact that up until "recently" the glues that were used were not that good and it was not a question of "if" the glue would fail but "when". So a mechanical interlock was essential.

That being said, butting and nailing drawer boxes, with or without glue, may "work" fine and may hold up for many years of use. But it is crude and not consistent with anything approaching "fine" work. Used for the most inexpensive cabinetry or for shop fixtures, it could be acceptable. But beyond that, the idea offends my "aesthetic sense".

[Sean Nagle]

I do agree that gluing, butting and pinning is very crude work though quite effective. I personally would glue, butt and pin composite material drawer parts, but would prefer using a "real" joint for solid wood drawer parts.

Oh, one caveat, Baltic Birch deserves a "real" joint since it's most likely being used for the strength.

[Stephen Edwards]

"Is your joint like this one except for nipping the tongue of the rabbit?"

Yes, except that I use the R&G at both front and back. I don't see any advantage in using a different joint at the back. It's just that many more setups you have to do. It the fronts were DT'd, maybe the dado at the back. But once you're set up for the R&G, why not do all the corners with the same setup?

I was following this thread the other day. I decided to build the drawers for my router table using this R&G joint, front and back, as you suggested, David.

It's all ready to assemble and clamp. I did a dry run on one of the drawers. Good tight fit.

I cut the the dados in the drawer sides just a wee bit deeper than the length of the long point of the rabbet in the fronts and backs. I did this to allow a little space for the glue and to make sure that the outer most portions of the joint clamp up tight. So, when looking at the clamped up drawer from the outside, front and rear elevation view, the sides are perfectly tight up against the outer face of the fronts and back. If you look at the joint from the top you see that wee gap between the bottom of the dado in the sides and the long point of the fronts and backs. We're talking less than 1/32" space.

Also, I purposefully cut the joints so that the ends of the sides are less than 1/32" proud of the fronts and backs, so that I can then sand the ends of the sides flush with outside of fronts and backs.

Here are the question: Is this the right way to do this joint?

Does one need to use any type of mechanical fastener, screws or dowels in the corners after they glue has dried, or is the joint itself strong enough as is?

Thanks for your input.

[John Stevens]

"...dovetail joints made sense. Anymore they are purely cosmetic..."
I am in total agreement with this. It also has to do with the fact that up until "recently" the glues that were used were not that good and it was not a question of "if" the glue would fail but "when". So a mechanical interlock was essential.

That being said, butting and nailing drawer boxes, with or without glue, may "work" fine and may hold up for many years of use. But it is crude and not consistent with anything approaching "fine" work. Used for the most inexpensive cabinetry or for shop fixtures, it could be acceptable. But beyond that, the idea offends my "aesthetic sense".

I agree, but my sense of aesthetics is gradually being replaced by my sense of utility. Every big chest of drawers I've had for clothing has been all-wood, all DT construction. And the drawers are much harder to open compared to the drawers in the pieces I've made. The drawers I've made all use Blum under-mount, full-extension slides. Easy to open all the way, regardless of the mass of the stuff in the drawer.

New bedroom furniture is far down on my list, but someday it'll all be butted Domino or biscuit construction with Blum under-mount, full-extension slides.

Regards,

John

[Bill Huber]

I will go with the Locked Miter, I am really getting to like that bit.

The set up does take a little time but once done it is very fast to cut and put them together.

Cut all your parts, set the locked miter up and then put some stops on the fence. Pull the router fence out and make the cuts on all the parts, then push it back against the stop and do the finial cuts to all parts.

Then reset the router with a slot cutter and cut all the grooves for the bottom.

The drawers go together really nice and squaring is not a problem, they square themselves and I just use 2 clamps on a drawer.

[Don Dorn]

I'm with Roger in the joint he laid out. Not sure where anyone thinks it's difficult as I find it very quick, strong and accurate. I use 1/2 material and just do the following:

Start with a 1/4" dado stack and put the sacrifical fence on. Move the fence so that the outside tooth of the blade is the same distance from the fence as the thickness of the work. Run the sides through.

Move the fence to the point where the inside tooth of the blade is even with the sacrificial fence and lower the blade slightly. Run an end of the front or back through and adjust the blade back up until the joint fits. Set it and run all the fronts and backs through - you're done.