Face frames: flush to inside cabinet a problem?

[Tim Reagan]

Starting kitchen this weekend and making final cut list. How do most people make drawer glides/hinges flush with faceframe? I think it would be easier to make the inside edge of faceframe flush with inside of cabinet, vs. building out every glide. I will have about 18 boxes, 13 of which will have multiple pull outs. My faceframe will be 1.5" if it matters. The reason I'm clarifying also is my boxes will have to be 1.5" narrower than normal to maintain the same overall width.
thanks.

[bob hertle]

Why do a face frame at all? Euro style boxes, no face frames, and I like 1/4 inch solid hardwood edging on the front exposed edges of the 3/4 ply.

Bob

[Tim Reagan]

Why do a face frame at all? Euro style boxes, no face frames, and I like 1/4 inch solid hardwood edging on the front exposed edges of the 3/4 ply.

Bob
I want to see some ff, not just doors.

[charlie kapper]

Have you looked at Mark Sommerfelds Cabinet router bit set. If I understand you question correctly, it was designed to address your concern. I also like the look of a face frame. See link below for Cabinet Making set.

http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/3-Pc-Tongue-Groove-Cabinetmaking-Set/productinfo/03004/

charlie

[Matthew Bradburn]

I have an old house and wanted a traditional-looking kitchen, so I have faceframe cabinets with inset doors. I've been using the Blum undermount drawer slides, and I like to put the box sides flush with the inside of the FF precisely to avoid having to build out the sides. It works well. In some cases I still had to build up from the box sides, for instance if the cabinet had a partition in the middle with drawers on both sides of the partition -- both drawers can't be flush in that case.

[Craig Coney]

Typically it's not a problem. You may need to add blocking to the outside of the casework to screw them together. Another option is to have the FF extend a typical 3/4" in from the casework and just use a block of wood behind the slides.

[Steve Clardy]

I've always filled in the gap for slides with solid wood.
Usually pine 2x material.
Glued and nailed to the ply sides.

[David Giles]

Your idea is officially known as the Proulx method of cabinet construction. It works very well and makes drawer slide installation quite simple. His method cuts the floor piece 1/16" wider than the FF opening which gives a 1/32" overlap on the vertical edges. The sides fit outside the floor and upper spacer. You can set the side gap by feel.

To assemble each box, lay the FF face down. Pocket hole the floor in place onto the FF. Attach the two sides and top stretcher. Last plop on the back and flush trim if you are inclined to do so.

To install multiple boxes, I screw the FF together and the boxes to the wall, but have never attached the boxes to each other. I guess they could be shimmed if you wanted to do so.

The flush FF do require different European door hinge supports. And Cabinet Claws will not work as the claw requires a FF lip.

[David DeCristoforo]

If you can flush the cabinet sides or partitions with the inside of the face frame, do it that way. In situations where you can't for one reason or another, just block them out as Chip suggested.

[glenn bradley]

I do what Steve does. I think that overall, it will be less work to do traditional FF boxes with stand-off strips. JMHO.

[Tim Reagan]

I'm not quite clear on the Proul method, but I think I have his book on hold at the library. I don't see how flush inside is more work, except for calculating the smaller box size beforehand. I'll make the uppers traditional flush outside. This is helping, thanks.

[Jim Becker]

Since I only build cabinets with face frames and inset doors (because of the look/style) I've adapted my designs so that the face frame edge is flush with the inside cabinet walls so I can use frameless Euro hinges. While this means a slight decrease in cabinet interior volume and the need fro spacer between the carcasses, it delivers exactly what I want in looks and functionality.

[glenn bradley]

I don't see how flush inside is more work, except for calculating the smaller box size beforehand.

I was thinking of the bother of having to put spacers between carcasses but, it sounds like Jim has adopted this method and is happy with it. Jim has always been a pretty solid source of info around here so I would place some value on his experience. Sounds like you have found a good answer . . . . now you've got me thinking that maybe I should give this a try :D

[Tim Reagan]

Curious Jim, what size faceframe do use generally use? Where cabinets abut, do you adjust these faceframes so the exposed ff is the same size as where they do not abut? I realized you do inset, and I will be doing full overlay. Also why do you need spacers? I was planning on attaching ff and then to the wall.

[Jeff Wright]

As Jim B, I like inset doors and drawers and face frames. Many argue that the Euro style results in more interior room, but in my view that is not entirely true with the cabs with doors since the Euro hinges stick out so far from the sides. They look bulky (and yucky!). I use mortised butt hinges and have gotten quite fast installing them since I committed to using them. I have not experienced the doors sagging over time (yet). I only use quality extruded hinges (costing about $20 a set).

Since I apply beading to the inside of my door and drawer openings with the beading 1/4 inch thick, if I apply the face frames such that their inside face is aligned with the inside face of the carcass walls, that leaves a 1/4 inch space that must be built out. That makes it easy to use readily available 1/4 inch stock to use as spacers. I have not perfected my skills to make face frames with the integral beading. That is a skill I would like to perfect, especially if the project is stained wood versus painted.

If you own a jointer/planer, making pieces for spacers is not a big deal.

[Karl Brogger]

I just cut up a bunch of plywood scraps to 2-1/4" by what ever length I need for the slides. Only on the occasion of having a drawer stack do I bother flushing out partitions with the inside edge of the faceframe.

When the box's are all built and sanded the last step before going to the finisher for me is usually building out all of the openings. I take my 2-1/4" by X" piece and set it where it needs to be and just mark it with a pencil. Set the table saw blade height so it just barely cuts half way through, then set the fence to take the line. After flipping it end for end to complete the cut and its done. Couple lines of glue, a few brad nails to hold it.

I've found this method to be faster than going crazy trying to get the pocket on the back side of the face frame absolutely perfect and bulk cutting the build out. Once you get used to it, every single opening comes out flawless with almost no fuss.

[Jim Becker]

Tim, face frame rail and stile sizing is relative to the propotions of the project and also the typical viewing position of the cabinets. This is particularly affective to the rails and sizing of those will often be different for upper cabinets than it will be for lower cabinets as well as different for top and bottom rails. (I am not referring to doors right now) Inset vs overlay doors will also influence the design.

Because of all that, my sizing varies with the project, but I favor relativly even dimensions in balance with the stiles of my inset doors...typically 2.75-3". Bottom rails might be the same dimension or greater if arched. Top rails are usually narrower on lowers if there is a counter involved. My cabinets tend toward a "Shaker" style.

[jack duren]

Cut the fillers as suggested for the drawers and use face frame hinge plates. This is the least your problems with full inset cabinet construction;).....Jack

[Tom Clark FL]

How do most people make drawer glides/hinges flush with faceframe?

I just saw up scrap plywood to glue/nail to the inside of the ply walls. Very simple and easy to mount slides to. I also use 1.5" on edges, and 2.25" for any center posts - as show in these photos. There are a lot more photos here (http://www.tomclarkbooks.com/tomclarkbooks.com/Designing_Shop_Cabinets.html).