Why so expensive?

[Bob Davis]

I wonder if anybody here can enlighten me on the pricing of laser tubes?
Looking at the models from various manufacturers it is apparent that a relatively small increase in laser wattage has a drastic effect on price. What puzzles me is why is that so?
It would appear that a lower power tube, say 20watts, is physically identical to a high power tube (50w) from the same manufacturer. Obviously there must be some internal differences to account for the higher power (I would guess at the gas mix and some electronics), but it appears difficult to justify the huge increase in price at the retail end. The cabinet, transport systems, mirrors, lenses, controls etc are the same.

One example I have looked at is 25 watt - $15k, 40 watt - $21k, 60 watt - $29k for otherwise identical machines. All the manufacturers seem to do it, and some have much larger premiums for the upgrade.

Can the prices be justified by real manufacturing costs, or is this a marketing exercise?

[Dan Hintz]

It mostly comes down to marketing... except for differences in length of the tube (and therefore the extra aluminum required to cut it), the basis of the laser is identical. The same driver boards are used (though higher models may use more powerful FETs, etc.), the same concept is used in layout (though again, some tweaking may be necessary), and so on. The beefier power supplies and the like are a pittance compared to the increase in price they request.

There are similarities in the automotive world. For example, if you twin-turbo a Nissan 370Z, you can easily get 450whp for around $40k. A Ferrari with less than 400whp starts at $200k, and I guarantee you that 370Z is more luxurious than the Ferrari, and you'll have a hard time convincing any Ferrari owner that his car is more reliable than the 370Z (which any Ferrari owner will tell you the car is in the shop a LOT more than any production car). Increases in whp do not directly correlate with increases in money.

YMMV... (no pun intended)

[George Brown]

I wonder if anybody here can enlighten me on the pricing of laser tubes?

VERY simple, because they can!!! :(

[Dave Johnson29]

you'll have a hard time convincing any Ferrari owner that his car is more reliable than the 370Z (which any Ferrari owner will tell you the car is in the shop a LOT more than any production car).

Got that right Dan, I have a good friend who has run a Ferrari repair service in London (UK) for about 30 years. He swears the only Ferrari he would ever drive is someone else's. :)

[Lenin Alvarez]

There are similarities in the automotive world. For example, if you twin-turbo a Nissan 370Z, you can easily get 450whp for around $40k. A Ferrari with less than 400whp starts at $200k, and I guarantee you that 370Z is more luxurious than the Ferrari, and you'll have a hard time convincing any Ferrari owner that his car is more reliable than the 370Z (which any Ferrari owner will tell you the car is in the shop a LOT more than any production car). Increases in whp do not directly correlate with increases in money.

YMMV... (no pun intended)

Nice car analogy but, why waste the money buying a 370Z and then wasting some more to get some TT's when with that money i could get a GTR? :D

Bob,
You could go the cheap (chinesse) way, but you get what you pay for:eek:

[Doug Griffith]

I agree with Dan and Bob.

If the price difference between the same model with different wattages is negligible, then buyers will always go for the higher watt models in the first place. They won't buy a lesser powered model and then upgrade a few years later.

[Mark Ross]

BMW stands for break my wallet...:)

Maybe we could use the "Red Green (Canadian Comedian) method and get a bunch of laser pointers, some duct tape, and make our own?

I think it may have something to do with the equipment, time or material used to make the various wattage lasers. With the way the economy is, I think if one of the big boys could sell a 100W unit for what everyone else sells 25W units for, they would do it to capture market share.

[Dan Hintz]

I think it may have something to do with the equipment, time or material used to make the various wattage lasers. With the way the economy is, I think if one of the big boys could sell a 100W unit for what everyone else sells 25W units for, they would do it to capture market share.
Probably not... the other companies would follow suit on pricing within a few weeks/months, and then every company would be making little profit. Consider it a non-spoken price fix in progress, they don't want to lose that kind of money.



Nice car analogy but, why waste the money buying a 370Z and then wasting some more to get some TT's when with that money i could get a GTR? :D
Not to sidetrack, but...

I'm awaiting the announcement of the 2010 convertible to place my order. A fully decked out (minus nav package) auto touring sport package 370Z is $42k out the door. A local shop has a twin turbo package for just over $10k installed and tuned (your choice of power level, I'll go for a relatively conservative 450whp, up from the stock 290whp). You can't touch the 2010 GTR for under mid-$80's, running at around a "paltry" 405whp. When I'm done, I'll be able to stomp a GTR and do it for $30k less

[Bill Cunningham]

It's not just the tubes that are expensive.. My LCD has a few lines running across it..no problem.. 'but' it just developed one going across the time/position portion of the display which makes setting somethings up a pain, you can't tell if it's a 3,9,6,8, or what!!.. So how much could a display replacement cost?
$590.00 + shipping.. The only way they could reach that level of cost for a piece of electronics that small is like George said: "because they can" ..Dan @ Epilog sent me the replacement instructions, so I will pull the board this weekend, and see if maybe it's collected some dust/crud over the past 5 years that causing the problem. If that does not solve it, I will have to think up some work-arounds until it dies, then replace it.. The whole machine may be due for replacement by then...

[AL Ursich]

LCD display Glass has contact areas on the glass parameter. They use a piece of rubber with conductive fiber strands like a hand full of straws. The butt it against the glass and against the circuit board. That acts as the conductor paths.

On simple displays like Fluke Meters it is a easy fix... Remove the display and rubber and clean with Alcohol and re install... That usually fixes the problem.... In 8 years with Sony I fixes a bunch especially when I worked in the Calibration Lab.

AL

[Bill Cunningham]

Thanks Al.. Once I have it out, I'll see what I'm dealing with.. I doubt if it's the display itself, but the contacts as you said. Some of the lines go away,then comeback as if something is interrupting the the scan on that line of pixels.. But I have noticed some are there all the time, and others are not.. I had a total of 5 across it yesterday,when normally there are only 3 .. The extra 2 vanished today again.. Even if I can get rid of the ones going through the time/position numbers I will be happy. The others are just 'there'

[Dan Hintz]

Might be gunk sitting across some of the strips... BTW, they're lovingly called "zebra strips" after the black/gray/black/gray striped pattern. It's nothing more than carbon-impregnated ink painted onto a rubber strip. Don't wipe too hard as you can scratch and/or wipe the ink away.



Bill,

If the repair doesn't work, send me a few images of the board and I'll see if it's easily replaceable (it may be a standard LCD board, and multi-line displays are often had for $20-$30).

[Mark Ross]

Bill,

Once you get it out, look for numbers and or a company logo on the display. Try googling any numbers. If it is a standard display (Our 36EXT has a 2 line vacuum fluorescent display) you may be able to get it way cheaper buy purchasing it through a place like Digikey or Mouser. That's if it is a standard off the shelf non custom display.

[Lenin Alvarez]

Not to sidetrack, but...

I'm awaiting the announcement of the 2010 convertible to place my order. A fully decked out (minus nav package) auto touring sport package 370Z is $42k out the door. A local shop has a twin turbo package for just over $10k installed and tuned (your choice of power level, I'll go for a relatively conservative 450whp, up from the stock 290whp). You can't touch the 2010 GTR for under mid-$80's, running at around a "paltry" 405whp. When I'm done, I'll be able to stomp a GTR and do it for $30k less

lol, it goes back to the same POWER!!!! in cars or laser tubes we always want more power!!!!

yeah the GTR is more expensive but you get AWD, better suspension, better engine, not to mention two extra seats (yeah tiny leg room) i had a 350z and it was nice but practical not, for the 370z i will get a G37S ;)

[Dan Hintz]

lol, it goes back to the same POWER!!!! in cars or laser tubes we always want more power!!!!

yeah the GTR is more expensive but you get AWD, better suspension, better engine, not to mention two extra seats (yeah tiny leg room) i had a 350z and it was nice but practical not, for the 370z i will get a G37S ;)
I'm coming from a tricked out S2000, so practicality doesn't really change in this case :p The S has enough trunk space for about half of a body.

Though I'm not sure I'd agree with you on the better engine on the GTR... it's the same basic power plant bored out another 0.1L and twin turbocharged from the factory. I'm essentially recreating what the factory did without boring the engine. And the suspension is one of the first things to get ripped out and replaced, so even with a GTR I'd be removing what they put in.

Ahhhhh, boys and their toys :D

[Rodne Gold]

I originally had the Civic VTI coupe (1600 , 160 hp n/a , 8700 rpm) which is not the same Civic as in the USA , then I got a S2000 which I drove for a year , but its impractical, then went back to my muscle cars , which were even more impractical and currently drive a Vtec Jazz CVT (I think it's called the FIT in the usa, the sensible money boring Honda)
Despite raping the S2000 and the Vti , I never had one thing go wrong with em EVER!!!! The Jazz is on 10 000 kms and hasn't missed a beat (sorry for the pun)

[Dan Hintz]

When Amy and I were car shopping a couple of months back (for her), we looked at numerous cars, including the fit. Just like the Nissan Cube I ended up buying her last month, we both took one look at the Fit and went "That's an ugly car!". But as time passed and she started playing with it on the test drive, suddenly it wasn't so bad... just like with the Cube. I love Honda reliability (and Amy has had a Civic, in one form or another, nearly all of her life), but the Cube's CVT transmission made it feel like it had more power than the Fit (and the deal was right). Interesting name for it in your area...

The S2000 has around 200k kilometers on the odo at this point, and she's as strong as ever. I have only ever had to replace one component due to failure not of my causing, the throttle body (truth be told, it was only the $0.25 throttle position sensor that was failing, but emissions laws prevent us from replacing that one piece :rolleyes:). Any other components that were replaced (and there have been a surprising number of them, unfortunately) were due to corrosion from using it as a daily driver during Boston winters with their nasty road salts.

Still, the S is 10+ years old, and it's time to move on...

[Bill Cunningham]

Bill,

Once you get it out, look for numbers and or a company logo on the display. Try googling any numbers. If it is a standard display (Our 36EXT has a 2 line vacuum fluorescent display) you may be able to get it way cheaper buy purchasing it through a place like Digikey or Mouser. That's if it is a standard off the shelf non custom display.


Posted by Dan: Might be gunk sitting across some of the strips... BTW, they're lovingly called "zebra strips" after the black/gray/black/gray striped pattern. It's nothing more than carbon-impregnated ink painted onto a rubber strip. Don't wipe too hard as you can scratch and/or wipe the ink away.



Bill,

If the repair doesn't work, send me a few images of the board and I'll see if it's easily replaceable (it may be a standard LCD board, and multi-line displays are often had for $20-$30).Ok Thanks guys I will do just that as soon as I can get it out.. Thought I was going to get time this weekend, but no such luck.. What I will do is drop the board out, and check the numbers, take some pictures.. My luck is if I pull the display from the rubber mount(?) I may screw something up, and with the workload I currently have, 'that' would pose a real problem.. So I will see what I have, and can get, before buggering around with it and maybe creating more problems than I currently have..

[Bob Davis]

I've got a Nissan Murano with CVT. I really like it, but it took a while to get used to the transmission. For a while it felt like a clutch was always slipping, and it's really weird the first time you nail it and the tacho just goes to the redline and stays there.
Because you don't get the usual aural and physical cues (changing down a gear or two and revving out) it can seem quite slow and a bit dull. In reality the acceleration is good (at least in relative terms - it is a softroader, after all) and the CVT is always in the right gear.

[Dan Hintz]

I've got a Nissan Murano with CVT. I really like it, but it took a while to get used to the transmission. For a while it felt like a clutch was always slipping, and it's really weird the first time you nail it and the tacho just goes to the redline and stays there.
Because you don't get the usual aural and physical cues (changing down a gear or two and revving out) it can seem quite slow and a bit dull. In reality the acceleration is good (at least in relative terms - it is a softroader, after all) and the CVT is always in the right gear.
The Cube has the same thing, and in some cases (such as just after a medium to hard acceleration) it tends to hunt for the right gear more than I would like. I never feel any shaking of the car as you would with a normal transmission, but you can hear the engine drop a gear, then go back up, drop a gear, then go back up before it finds its "happy" point. I just wonder how expensive this thing is going to be to fix when the time comes (and it always comes).

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled program...

[Bill Cunningham]

Might be gunk sitting across some of the strips... BTW, they're lovingly called "zebra strips" after the black/gray/black/gray striped pattern. It's nothing more than carbon-impregnated ink painted onto a rubber strip. Don't wipe too hard as you can scratch and/or wipe the ink away.



Bill,

If the repair doesn't work, send me a few images of the board and I'll see if it's easily replaceable (it may be a standard LCD board, and multi-line displays are often had for $20-$30).


Mark: Once you get it out, look for numbers and or a company logo on the display. Try googling any numbers. If it is a standard display (Our 36EXT has a 2 line vacuum fluorescent display) you may be able to get it way cheaper buy purchasing it through a place like Digikey or Mouser. That's if it is a standard off the shelf non custom display.Well, I took the module out today, but did not remove the board from the unit. Just figured I would try what Dan at Epilog said to do, and blow the dust out of it.. A big puff of dust came out, but no Joy, the lines are still there.. I took photographs of the board, and by all accounts it's a standard unit made by Hyundai. I can find it on the web, no problem. The problem I did find, is I can only find it listed with production part suppliers (minimum order of $300 and up) The part number is HG32612F-GWJO-03
and it looks like the pictures below.. If anyone knows where I can buy '1' let me know please..

[Dan Hintz]

Try here... shows as having 9 in stock:
http://4730.iso-parts.com/nsn/4730-01-212-4928

Or here, shows a quantity of 1:
http://www.1sourcecomponents.com/search/search.htm

Click on "Datasheet" here and you can find more suppliers:
http://www.loadparts.com/Catalog/H/1113.htm

[Bill Cunningham]

Ok Thanks Dan... I sent a request to the first one, (I think they are one of the ones with a $300.00 min order) the second one has a min order of $250.00, I also submitted a request on the datasheet site for a supplier We'll see what happens..

[Breno Cavendish]

It's not just the tubes that are expensive.. My LCD has a few lines running across it..no problem.. 'but' it just developed one going across the time/position portion of the display which makes setting somethings up a pain, you can't tell if it's a 3,9,6,8, or what!!.. So how much could a display replacement cost?
$590.00 + shipping.. The only way they could reach that level of cost for a piece of electronics that small is like George said: "because they can" ..Dan @ Epilog sent me the replacement instructions, so I will pull the board this weekend, and see if maybe it's collected some dust/crud over the past 5 years that causing the problem. If that does not solve it, I will have to think up some work-arounds until it dies, then replace it.. The whole machine may be due for replacement by then...

Hey there Bill,

I know that it has been a several years since you have posted about this issue, but I am currently experiencing the same issue and I am wondering what was the solution that you came up with. Thanks

[Bill Cunningham]

Sent you a PM Breno

[Rangarajan Saravana kumar]

My Epilog uses the following board, has some lines frequently coming while running the machine. Not able to locate one piece for this. Any help would be appreciated
HG32612FGWJO03

[Michael Hunter]

Although the Hyundai HG32612FGWJO03 display seems to be obsolete, this type of display (320x240 graphics) is fairly generic and finding a cheap replacement ($20 - $30) should be quite easy.
Any of the large "catalogue" electronics suppliers should have something similar in their ranges (Farnell in the UK have lots, as does rs-online who have a States-side operation).

The biggest problem will be finding one with exactly the same flat cable connector. If you can't, then someone with a reasonable amount of electronics knowledge should be able to bodge up an adaptor.
The data signals on these displays are pretty standard, though the connections for the backlight and contrast controls do wander around a bit between manufacturers, so a little care is needed.

[Andrew Stow]

Hi all.

I just bought a Legend 32 at government auction that has this LCD on it. And the LCD doesn't display anything. I've tried cleaning every contact I can find. Backlight comes on, but the screen itself doesn't display anything.

What was the easiest/cheapest solution found for this problem? Epilog wants 630 dollars for a replacement!

Thank you,

-Andy

eta: Hm, I don't understand how this board works yet, sorry. I thought I was replying to a thread about the hyundai LCD board for the Legend series engravers, but there appears to be some quote tree that I replied to instead. Sorry.

[David Rust]

They are expensive because we will buy it... supply and demand... the cost is not necessarily a straight mark up on the cost of materials, labor, and overhead. (pretty much what everyone else said...)

I happily drive an inexpensive Nissan Sentra with 150k miles, it has given me years of reliable service. Because of this I can afford my Laser... It's all about choices... My wife however has a really nice Toyota FJ...
:)

[Andrew Stow]

Ok, I ran across this LCD
http://www.newhavendisplay.com/nhd320240wgaffhtz001c-p-586.html

The physical dimensions are a little too big, but... it does have some promising details in the data sheet. Such as:

14 pin connector. And from the picture at least... it LOOKS like the same parlex flat ribbon cable. The datasheet for the newhaven gives the function of each pin. If someone were able to find a datasheet for the hyundai LCD module, that would tell the tale I suspect.

Also, from what I can tell, the power supply board on the end of the whole shebang is providing 5V power to the keyboard module. At least, those Texas Instrument ICs labeled U3 and U4 use 5V

I haven't measured voltage while everything is plugged in and running, but I suspect it's also providing 5V to the Hyundai LCD module, too. Just a guess.

The newhaven LCD datasheet specifies 5V operating voltage. And it's got the same positive and negative lead coming off the end of the screen and terminating in a plastic (not molex, what's the type?) of connector. Very similar looking to the hyundai LCD.

Am I crazy or would this thing actually work? It's cheap enough, I'm tempted to just buy it and try it out.

[Mark Ross]

Well if laser power costs are what they are, be it linear in price or exponential, either way, it explains why the president rejected the petition to build a death star.