PLEASE HELP w/veneering a box, chamf. corners, veneer before or after construction?

[Adam Margulies]

Hi all,
PLEASE HELP - I'm making a decorative wood box, and veneering it inside and out. I'm trying to figure out the professional way to do this; how it would've been done historically. Should I glue the veneers to the various panels BEFORE I cut my joinery and glue up the box, or after the box is assembled?
Normally I'd think it makes sense to veneer all the panels first, however there's a catch - I'm chamfering the corners, probably after the box is assembled and glued up. Or, I could make the chamfered corners first, by mitering the ends of the side panels before gluing them up.
These chamfered corners will be covered with veneer, which can only be done after they're cut.
If I veneer everything else first and then construct the box, but cut and veneer the chamfers later, the end grain/edges of the corner veneers will show (they'll sit proud and won't be flush with the rest of the perimeter veneer strips). Unless maybe I could carefully sand down the corners,
so their veneer pieces then sit flush with the rest of the veneer along the box perimeter? The other photo shown is an antique box, which shows the chamfered corners I'd like to achieve. Looks perfectly flush to me - perhaps all the sides veneers were mitered and applied after construction? THANKS VERY MUCH FOR HELP.

[David DeCristoforo]

I'm "bumping" this post in the hope that Mike Henderson might notice it. Mike does a lot of this kind of work...

[Adam Margulies]

Hi all,

I'd love your opinion - anyone who knows about this stuff. I think maybe I found a solution for making my box - let me know. After reading more about traditional marquetry ('The Marquetry Course') and talking with a few practitioners, I think the proper and historical way is to definitely use hot hide glue. First veneer the center panel (amoyna burl), slightly oversize. Then using cutting gauge, trim excess so all 4 sides of center veneer are square to the substrate. Reheat veneer, cut and remove excess burl. Then veneer crossbanding. This way, the center panel is perfectly square with substrate and borders are all the right size, with miters lined up perfectly.

I'm thinking maybe I should do this for the burl veneered center panels on the side walls, then assemble the box. Maybe if I then cut the chamfered corners and cover them with burl veneer pieces, the visible edges won't be a problem? Maybe the burl figure will camouflage the exposed edges. I could then do the same thing as the lid - use cutting gauge to trim excess burl (reheating to release glue), then apply crossbanding. And now, with the crossbanding applied after construction and the corners cut, I could make the crossbanding miter or fit perfectly at corners.

I've attached a preliminary list of construction steps which I wrote. If anyone has the time or interest to review this, I'd greatly appreciate your opinion. THANKS AGAIN VERY MUCH.

Adam

[Adam Margulies]

PLEASE HELP AGAIN - GLUING MY CROSSBANDING BORDERS.

I think I've figured out almost everything for making this box project - I'm going to use hide glue (both traditional hot for veneers, and cold/liquid 'Old Brown Glue' for joinery). I'll first veneer my center burl panels, then trim excess with a cutting gauge - that way I'll square the burl panel to the substrate on all 4 sides, and can perfectly fit my crossbanding borders.
I NEED YOUR HELP FOR THE CROSSBANDING - I'm not sure how I should glue them. I'm using tulipwood - the sheets are only 4-5" wide, so I'll first be jointing them together and then cutting my strips cross-grain. If I leave veneer tape on them (from my joints/seams), I can't hammer veneer with hot hide glue - the veneer tape would be in the way of scraping with the veneer hammer.

I see a few options - I could hammer veneer one little tulipwood strip at a time (maybe 4" strip). After each strip is initially glued, I could use a chisel to cut a joint and then glue the next strip down. Lots of little strips though! Alternatively, I could use glue when I joint the tulipwood sheets - that way I could later remove the veneer tape (joints might be fragile though). Or, I could use cold Old Brown Glue and simply press my entire piece with the crossbanding glued down (24-48hrs cure time). This seems easiest, but I was told hot hide glue should be able to accomplish it. What do you think, and how might it have been done historically? THANKS AGAIN VERY MUCH.

Adam

[Mike Henderson]

I hadn't seen this posting - sorry. Note that the antique box you show has a piece of metal around the edges.

What some people do is cut a small rabbet along the edges and inset a piece of contrasting wood in that rabbet. That piece of inset wood will terminate the veneer between the two surfaces (top/side) and hide the edges of the veneer. It'll do essentially what the piece of metal does on the antique piece. Unless you're concerned about the joint on the side where the chamfer meets the main part of the side.

I'm not completely sure I understand exactly what you're doing so the above advice may or may not make sense or be useful.

Mike

[Adam Margulies]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your feedback. I should've clarified - the first photo I posted (on the left) is MY proposed design, which I'll be making. The other photos of the box with the brass edging are simply a different antique box I found, which kind of inspired my design. I think that rounded brass edging would've been thin strips of brass, formed and glued over a rounded wood edge. This seems relatively easy, since no rabbet is needed.

Instead of the metal edging, Ill be using an egg & dart wood molding around the perimeter edges of my box lid (flush with the sides, and flush with the lid surface). This complicates things more, because the molding is about the same width as my walls - therefore I can't simply cut a rabbet. My molding is 1/2" wide. Side walls are 1/2" thick PLUS veneer on both faces - so about 9/16" thick. My egg & dart molding is 3/8" high, box lid is 9/16" thick. I think I'll cut the bottom edges of the lid with a small rabbet, so it sits down in between the side walls 3/16" and covers the top edge of the side walls about 1/16". I'll use a thin HDF strip as a biscuit, joining the molding to the box lid. Hopefully it will all work ok that way.

I really have two concerns now - as you mentioned, THE EDGES OF VENEER ON THE CHAMFERED CORNERS, where they meet the veneer on the other main side panels. If I first veneer the side panels, then cut the chamfered corners, AND THEN veneer the corners - I'm wondering if these exposed veneer edges will be noticeable. Maybe since it's burl, it won't be. My other question is HOW TO GLUE THE TULIPWOOD CROSSBANDING - EITHER HAMMER VENEERING WITH HOT HIDE GLUE, or pressing/clamping with cold Old Brown Glue (liquid hide). I was told hot hide glue can do it, but I see a few problems - I planned to joint up my tulipwood sheets with veneer tape, then cut my strips. The veneer tape would be in the way for hammer veneering (and not having used hide glue yet, these narrow strips seem delicate to hammer veneer). Or, I could either glue the tulipwood sheets and later remove my veneer tape, or perhaps just use the liquid hide glue and press the whole panel with crossbanding on it. Any suggestions? Thanks very much.

[Mike Henderson]

Okay, I see what you're doing now (I think). I may not understand everything, but why not lay the top panel before you attach it to the box. In fact, I'd probably build the box after I laid the top. That way, you can lay all your veneer for the top as a single sheet and glue it to the substrate. Then trim the substrate so the veneer design is centered and just the size you want.

To build the box, I'd lay the veneer on the sides (inside and out) before assembling the box. I'd measure the top and cut the sides so that the completed box fit the top exactly (dry fit to the top). You'd need to be careful when cutting the sides that you don't get any tearout. One way to do that is to score the veneer at the cut line before cutting it. For those corners, you can use small (FF) biscuits to align them when gluing (or splines).

If the box doesn't come out the right size, you can re-make the box and you still have your top.

After building the box, fit the top to it with room for the molding. You need to make the sides thick enough that you get some purchase (glue surface) on the top. Check for the fit of the molding before gluing the top. If you have to trim one side a small amount (or trim the molding) it probably won't be noticeable.

Anyway, that's the way I'd probably approach it. There's always many ways to do things and others may have better ideas.

BTW, are you going to carve that egg and dart? Or is that commercial molding?

Mike

[Adam Margulies]

Mike,

Thanks a lot for your feedback. Believe it or not, I was actually planning on doing almost everything you suggested, in that order. It definitely makes sense to veneer all the panels before I glue up the box. Although, I'm still not sure whether I should veneer my crossbanding tulipwood strips before or after box assembly and glue-up. It seems a tad easier to apply those crossbanding strips before assembly, since I could lay the panels on the bench. However, if I do them after assembly, I can make sure the crossbanding fits perfectly at the corners (and possibly even miter the veneer edges somewhat, to really get a perfect corner). I don't see it being too difficult to apply the crossbanding after construction - just use a bench dog or something to properly hold the box in place.

I was thinking that maybe I'd cut all my panels to final size BEFORE I veneer them (lid too). My amboyna burl center panels won't reach all the way to the edges (except for the ends on the side panels), and will be trimmed later with the cutting gauge anyway. I'll still probably need a sacrificial board to prevent tear out when cutting my panels, though (I assume).

Right now, really my only concern is HOW TO GLUE THE CROSSBANDING STRIPS - either hot hide glue veneer hammering, or liquid (cold) hide glue and pressing/clamping. I've been told the hot glue should be capable of this, and any other chore needed. But I don't know if I can visualize hammer veneering (scraping) the narrow strips. They're delicate. Normally, I'd need to have veneer tape on them because the crossbanding is made up of various 3-4" long tulipwood strips. However, maybe if I use glue when jointing together the whole tulipwood sheets, I can later remove the veneer tape. But then which way to scrape with the veneer hammer? If I scrape towards the center of the lid, the glue will ooze between the seam of the crossbanding and center panel (ok, maybe?). If I scrape towards the outer edges, I move the crossbanding away from the seam with the center panel, and have a gap (unless the glue tacks up and holds it in place). I guess maybe you scrape diagonally. Either way, there's not much surface area or glue to contend with, so maybe it's not an issue.

And - do you think I can really hammer veneer this amboyna burl veneer (for center panels) without damaging it? It's standard, modern thickness - 1/32" to 1/40" I think. I'll flatten it with solution in a press overnight first. FOR MY CORNER JOINERY - DO YOU THINK I DEFINITELY NEED TO USE BISCUITS, AND NOT SIMPLY A PLAIN DRAWER JOINT WITHOUT NO SPLINES OR BISCUITS? Thanks again very much.

Adam

[Mike Henderson]

Adam, I don't use hide glue so I can't give you any advice there. What you might do is lay most of the cross banding, leaving only the corners open. Then finish that part last so you can match the corners.

The reason I suggested trimming the top panel after you veneer is that sometimes the veneer goes on a bit off from where you want it (shifted just a bit). By trimming after, you can correct for that.

Regarding the corners, anything that gives you good registration should work. I suggested small biscuits or splines because that's what came to mind.

Good luck and post a picture when you're finished.

Mike

[Adam Margulies]

Thanks very much, Mike.

BTW - you had asked about my egg & dart molding - it's commercially made, pressed wood molding. I bought it from my local Rockler store.

Regarding my corner joinery - I'm wondering if biscuits or splines are necessary or will really help. A friend suggested that the drawer joint I'm planning to use is basically the same type of 'hold' and grain match as if I used splines, etc. I'd love yours or anyone elses opinion about my corner joints, and any other suggestions which would allow the chamfered corners. Here's a diagram of my proposed corner joinery. Thanks again.

Adam