Fillister Planes

[Jules Martin]

Hello!

I've seen a lot of interesting posts about moving fillisters. I'm trying to decide between the ECE and the LV moving fillisters. The ECE is very much cheaper and I'm sure is an excellent tool, and I'm inclined to its woodenness. Everyone seems to love the LV but it is much more expensive. I expect to also use the plane for panel raising as well as rebates, and I was wondering if anyone can say if the skewed blade in the LV plane is very much better. I'm sure the ECE will be fine for me, but I don't want to miss out on a significant advantage.

Thanks!

[Robert Rozaieski]

A skewed iron is a big advantage when planing cross grain or against the grain (which you will have to do when making raised panels with a plane). For planing with the grain, it makes no difference.

Don't discount unfenced rabbet planes either. That's all I use to make raised panels.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2095/2467793838_732b2dfb79.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3236/2467793854_93c9213edb.jpg?v=0

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2043/2467793860_349fe3ac2a.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3019/2467793866_948abd672e.jpg?v=0

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2170/2467001551_dc7bdf5933.jpg?v=0

The full description can be read here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=80840&highlight=build&page=4). The raised panel portion begins at part 20 about 2/3 of the way down the page.

[Martin Cash]

Many thanks for this Bob.
Your tutorial is fantastic. I can't seem to find anything past Part 11 which is on page three, where it stops.
And I really want to see part 12 and following.....
Help

Never mind, I have found them.
It seems that the blog software has not listed the parts consecutively and they have to be found from the replies box menu above.
Great Tutorial Bob - very comprehensive - Many thanks again

[David Keller NC]

Jules - The LV tool isn't really a moving fillister, though it can be used to do the same job. The ECE Primus isn't traditionally constructed either, but is closer to the historical British form. You can buy the traditional types from The Best Things (click on the "Vintage and Antique Hand Tools", then on "Wooden Planes"). He currently has an American version that isn't desirable as a collector's item because it doesn't have the original wedge. It's quite a bargain as a result (see the first listing under "American Planes" - also, note that you don't want a sash fillister, which is a different tool):

http://www.thebestthings.com/woodplan.htm

Patrick Leach (SuperTool) also occasionally lists them in his monthly e-mail lists. You can e-mail him with your request and he'll typically have a few in stock that were either unsold in previous lists or he hasn't listed yet.

Generally, you will need to tune an antique one a bit, but that's no big deal - typically it's flattening the sole on some sandpaper stuck down to a flat machine table, and sharpening the iron.

[Derek Cohen]

I have both ECE (a vintage version) and LV planes. Both have skew blades.

The ECE is a fantastic user. It cuts rebates (rabbets) effortlessly ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/ECEMovingFillester.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Articles/Veritas%20Skew%20Rabbet%20and%20Beader/ECE1.jpg

The LV has a wider range and, for example, can take a finer shaving, which is important when planing raised panels ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Articles/Veritas%20Skew%20Rabbet%20and%20Beader/Panelraising1.jpg

Cuts a mean rebate as well ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/LV%20planes/Skew%20Rabbet/Veritasskewrabbetplanerabate1.jpg

If I could only have one it would be the LV. But I would miss the ECE ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Belair]

Hi Derek

What is your experience/ recommendation on the LV after you've had it a while- need both left and right or can make do with one easily enough?

Also do you (or anyone) know if the modern ECE has skewed blade? I looked at one a while back (or maybe it was the Ulmia) and thought it didn't but memory's fading :rolleyes:

Cheers
Jim B

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Jim

You can get by with just one skew rabbets plane if all you do is cut rabbets. However, as soon as you use it for panel raising, where you will run against the grain, you will be happy you have it.

I am sitting for months on a lot of photos and material for a full review of the LV skews, with comparisons with the Stanley #289, Record#778, ECE, and Stanley #46. Hopefully soon.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Erwin Graween]

Hi.

Derek, I'm really looking forward to this review/comparison.

I have 2 questions:
1-how much is skewed you ECE plane ?
2-

You can get by with just one skew rabbets plane if all you do is cut rabbets. However, as soon as you use it for panel raising, where you will run against the grain, you will be happy you have it.
I dont' get that one. Do you mean we can get with one skew rabbet and be happy for panel raising. Or do you mean you can be happy with one untill you go for raising panels, and than need the two versions ?

Thank you.

[Jon van der Linden]

Hi.

Derek, I'm really looking forward to this review/comparison.

I have 2 questions:
1-how much is skewed you ECE plane ?
2-

I dont' get that one. Do you mean we can get with one skew rabbet and be happy for panel raising. Or do you mean you can be happy with one untill you go for raising panels, and than need the two versions ?

Thank you.


Normally the grain will go in opposite directions on opposite sides of a panel. The skew means that only one side of the plane can be towards the inside since the cutting action will pull it tight (or push it away) from the line. Ideally you use two skews, one left hand and one right hand.

Ease or impossibility all depends on the particular piece of wood, if the grain is working against you, then you'll definitely need both or you'll get tearout. Most of us prefer planing in one direction versus another, and quite often you can get along with just one skew... it's all up to the wood.

[Adam Cherubini]

One thing to watch for is the width of cut. Some fillesters only cut 1-1/4" or so. That may not be enough for some panel sizes. Kitchen cabinet sized panels often have larger (wider) raises. I'll be demonstrating the use of these planes at WiA. I'll also have them in the bench room for folks to try. Good idea to see these things work or try them yourself before you buy. Bob, am I finally going to get to meet you there?

Adam

[Robert Rozaieski]

Bob, am I finally going to get to meet you there?
Adam

Hey Adam! I'm not sure how that weekend is going to work out. I won't be able to attend any of the seminars or clinics as that weekend is my wife's and my wedding anniversary. However, we are going to be leaving the kids with my mother and spending the weekend in the Brandywine Valley doing Longwood and Winterthur (and maybe perhaps a winery or two). Perhaps I can convince her to at least stroll through the vendor area for an hour or two.

It's terrible, I feel like I always have an excuse when these opportunities present themselves. How many years has it been now? I just hope you don't think I'm trying to avoid you :D. To this day I still regret not being able to make the time to take you up on your multiple offers to visit you at home. I still haven't even gotten up to Pennsbury even after Linda and I made specific plans to do so in June. Wouldn't you know that a family emergency came up the day before the June Historic Trades Day?

I'm going to get there, come hell or high water!

[Erwin Graween]

Hi Jon.

I do not understand that the grain would be different on opposite sides of the panel. could you give an example ?
but I understand that if you plane in kind of "reverse" than one should be able to avoid tera out problem in case of reverse grain.
However this sound possible with panel raising, but sounds harder for classi rebate, as rebate planes even skewed, only have on reference side.

Also I never seen panel raising planes in pairs, but always in the classis right handed version? how where the tradesmans doing ? Did they have both ? or did they managed to choose (or make, with gluing) panels with right grain ?

Thank you for you help.

[Chuck Saunders]

Because the plane can only go "one way", you will have to plane say top to bottom on the right side and bottom to top on the left side. Let's say that the grain is rising top to bottom and you will have happy planing on the right and miserable planing on the left as you will be going against the grain. With the two planes skewed to opposite sides, you can plane with the grain on both sides.

[Jon van der Linden]

Hi Jon.

I do not understand that the grain would be different on opposite sides of the panel. could you give an example ?
but I understand that if you plane in kind of "reverse" than one should be able to avoid tera out problem in case of reverse grain.
However this sound possible with panel raising, but sounds harder for classi rebate, as rebate planes even skewed, only have on reference side.

Also I never seen panel raising planes in pairs, but always in the classis right handed version? how where the tradesmans doing ? Did they have both ? or did they managed to choose (or make, with gluing) panels with right grain ?

Thank you for you help.

The grain is usually the same on opposite sides (left and right) of the panel, it's the planing direction that's changed. As you plane around the panel the two ends will be across the grain, and the sides will be one with the grain and one against, unless the grain is truly neutral. That's why it all depends on the wood.

You're absolutely right about panel raisers not coming in pairs. The combination of a skewed blade and the fact that you're planing a bevel help work through the grain issues. The flatter the bevel the more grain will affect the results.

[Sean Hughto]

Someone who I consider a great authority on vintage wooden planes (Lee Richmond) told me, if I'm remembering right, that panel raisers often came in pairs with the same "handed" orientation so that one could be set for rank shavings and the other for finishing. I don't think I dreamed it ... but it was a long time ago, so I might be confused.

[Erwin Graween]

Hi thank you for the infos.

I now understand what was said about grain. So if one is ready to plane pulling the plan towards him or left handed if he's right hand for raising panel, you're able go get yourselft out of bad grain situation.

But (for curiosity - after all this forum is one important learning source for me) couldn't then a simple carriage plane or rebate plane be used ?

If I remember skewing a blade mimics the fact of lowering a blade no ?

I never tought about the fact that panel raiser indeed have both skew and bevel. How does this help with bad grain ? Does it gaves the blade a more cutting effect ? My undestanding now is that the bevel acts more than the skew ?
I want to make myself one of these for a long time now :rolleyes:.

Thank you.

[Chuck Saunders]

As you skew the blade you reduce the effective blade angle

[David Keller NC]

Erwin - With a panel raiser or skew rabbet plane, it makes no difference whether you push the plane or pull it - you still cannot plane in the right direction if you've only one on most boards.

The reason is that the plane only cuts in one direction - as it moves in the direction towards the toe, and it's the orientation of the skewed blade that determines the planing direction (i.e., the skew is most forward at the interior of the panel), not how one pushes/pulls it.

This is not true of a rabbet block plane like the L-N copies of the Sargent #507, because the blade is straight across the plane, and extends through the sidewall on both sides of the plane.