sigh, my bad plywood experience.

[Dave Tesch]

i had been buying 3/4" AC birch from lowes for a couple years and had been very happy with it. experienced no voids and no warpage, and didn't mind paying $50 per board to build boxes with it.

fast forward to a few weeks ago; i went to buy a few more sheets to build 3 quick boxes and lowes was out of 3/4" birch, all grades.

went to menards and bought what looked to be the same 3/4" AC birch. flipped through the pile to find a good one and found it is not the same after all.

i used a finish blade on my delta TS and immediately noticed all kinds of voids inside the board i was cutting, not typical 1 or 2 small tearouts on an entire project but every piece would have a large void, 3/8" and deeper that would run anywhere from 3 to 10" or more.

spent some time filling the voids (or large CRACKS) with glue and then filler when the glue dried the next day.

got it together after finding all the cut pieces had bowed (nice) and quarter rounded all edges with a 3/8" quarter round causing all kinds of tearouts and voids all along the edges (this is a sharp bit, no prior issues). i almost aborted at this point and the box sat for a few days while i decided what to do. i decided to finish the box and keep my eye on it to see how it survives the trucks (boxes are for bolting in equipment on rails and hauling around in trucks, main purpose is equipment protection).

i spent three nights after work gluing, filling and sanding all the holes in the edges. normally i would have 1 or 2 small gaps, 1/8" deep and long in the whole project, but this was in the hundreds and again 1/2" deep and long voids throughout.

after the third day i brushed on some paint over the edges to make sure i had gotten everything and when it looked good i sanded the paint down a little.

the next day i prepped the box for truck bed liner and fount at least 14 new cracks in the edges 1/8" deep or more. i decided to live with the cracks and put the bed liner on and had a 2 square inch section lift off one corner.

since then no further delamination has happened but the box looks like it was made by an amateur.

i do not think i will be using the remaining plywood for anything.

these boards do not say made in china.

my next plywood purchase will be from the lumberyard and not menards.

my new delta TS worked great though (first project on this saw)

too bad its a cruddy looking box.

[Steve knight]

what no metal pieces in it?
but even ply from my lumber store can have problems. I was cutting some 1/2" oak plywood for a customer and found it separated in two places one on each side of the plywood.

[Michael Schwartz]

I would recommend taking it back for a refund. Perhaps it was a bad batch, or ijust low quality. Regardless from what it sounds like its not very useful so I would try to get your money back.

defective batches are entirely possible, I was at a home depot and there was a skid of OSB the manager was having removed from the store that was some unheard of thickness.

[Phil Thien]

That is exactly opposite of my experience. I can't find decent ply at Lowes or HD (the stuff delaminates, the veneer is paper thin, it warps, etc). But Menards has U.S.-made stuff, and even has a BB-type plywood in 4 x 8 sheets.

[Matt Meiser]

I think Menards might sell some chinese and some US-made stuff. I've tried the US stuff and have actually been happy with it. I also tried some Aruco (sp?) ply they carry for a utility project and it was pretty nice stuff. I just used a piece of the scrap for something yesterday and thought that again. The only thing I've had trouble with from Menards was some 1/4" maple that warped. But I've had trouble with good 1/4" baltic birch warping as well so...

I had some 3/8" maple I bought from a plywood supplier. When I ripped it down, it opened up like pita bread. Sometimes you just get a defective sheet.

At my Lowes and Home Depot, everything is warped so bad its not usable.

[Dave Tesch]

i'm gonna chalk it up to a bad batch. interesting how different areas have different results from the stores; i've never had much luck with menards for anything except router bits. seems like the general experience here (where i live) is to find a very straight board at the store and it warps all over when you bring it home, no idea why. lowes seems to have better boards and more selection.

there is a lumber yard here called Simonsons that has rediculously good quality boards (for a price). i've bought there a few times and been shocked when the top board on the pile is as perfect as every other board in the pile. i built a footlocker style tray out of 1/2" birch i bought there and never used any filler and it never warped. and it was $60 for a sheet of 1/2"

i have some BC pine from menards that aside from a small bow is perfectly fine and i plan to use the rest of that. i guess sometimes you cant tell the quality by looking.

[John Schreiber]

I got some 3/4" AC ply which had snow fencing in one of the middle plies.

I'll bet you will find no end of horror stories.

[Donald Hofmann]

I think Menards might sell some chinese and some US-made stuff. I've tried the US stuff and have actually been happy with it. I also tried some Aruco (sp?) ply they carry for a utility project and it was pretty nice stuff. I just used a piece of the scrap for something yesterday and thought that again. The only thing I've had trouble with from Menards was some 1/4" maple that warped. But I've had trouble with good 1/4" baltic birch warping as well so...

I had some 3/8" maple I bought from a plywood supplier. When I ripped it down, it opened up like pita bread. Sometimes you just get a defective sheet.

At my Lowes and Home Depot, everything is warped so bad its not usable.

I just bought 4 sheets of the Araruco from Lowes. It was 23/32" for $31.99 sheet. I am making shop cabinets and so far have used two sheets and am happy with it. Its not warped and no voids

[Peter Kuhlman]

Was looking around HD today and saw A-C plywood from Chile - not China. Looked decent but never know till you cut into it. Purchased some oak veneer cabinet grade plywood from a wholesale supplier for $75 a sheet and was the biggest bunch of crap I have ever used. Absolutely no telling what you will get no matter where you buy it now.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Here, Lowes only stocks oak and birch that is made in China. It looks like a stack of potato chips. HD, across the street, stocks C-3 (shop grade) birch and oak that is made by Columbia Forest Products, in Old Fort NC. The price is the same, at both HD and Lowes. But at HD, I often look thru a whole unit (20 sheets) to get a couple of sheets that I can use. I'm not bashful about getting them to bring down another unit. If I get any flack, I remind them that my check has to be 100% good, just like I want their ply to be. A couple years back, local hardwood distributor had a whole container of ply from China to delaminate. This was after shops installed the cabinets. To say the least, they were UNHAPPY! I prefinish my sheet goods while they are whole, and then cut to size. Two years ago, I had two sheets (from Columbia Forest Prod.) delaminate when cutting to size.. I was LIVID, as this set me back two days on a time sensitive project. Trying to rush to get project out, I pulled my back and suffered with back spasms for a couple of weeks. It hurt to stand, and it hurt to sit. Thankfully I wasn't suffering any gastro-intestinal problems. Spent over $300 at the chiropractor ( after insurance deductable.) All over two lousey sheets of $44 plywood.

[Jack Ellis]

Was looking around HD today and saw A-C plywood from Chile - not China

That's Arauco. I've used it for shop cabinets and some other projects. I really like the stuff, especially for the price. Mostly available at Lowes though I bough five sheets for $25 at the HD in West Reno last week for garage shelves. I have run into some boards with small voids and it will move (warp) a bit so I no longer use it for jigs. It cuts cleanly and sharp router bits work well on it.

[Neal Clayton]

who was the guy on here awhile back that found a basketball crushed between layers of plywood?

good ole china ;).

[Walt Caza]

Hi Dave,
Sorry for your struggles.
I'm afraid we all know this to be the reality of current plywood shopping.
It's easier to buy low quality than find the good stuff.

On the bright side...
no pics, never happened!
So, if you feel less-than-pleased... just don't show us.
(kidding, sorry)

This week I build a cabinet carcass from 3/4" maple plywood.
Caliper confirms the sheet as actual 23/32", but labelled as 3/4". (-1/32")
Cut my parts, test fit dadoes, run 'em, spread my glue...
Top and bottom and first shelf slide home tight and tidy.
Last shelf will not go in...
had to sand edge tapers to drive the rascal home.

Stressful and less than ideal assembly.
Horse it with clamps like a clumsy brute.
Live to play another day.

Turns out I had unknowingly made one of the shelves from scrap of another sheet, which looked the same but was thicker.
The maple ply I had been getting from orange BigBox was a true 3/4"
and labelled as 19mm.
Lesson learned: if using plywood from more than a single sheet, gotta check thickness of each.
*bonus - both sheets came from the same rack and were neighbours in the stack!*

Yes, a dry test assembly would have revealed this before glue was applied.
But I try to avoid it with snug dadoes to eliminate edge flaking upon disassembly.
Guess next time I could test every shelf, instead of assuming they are all the same thickness.

Also, I dislike having to leave my dadoes a bit loose to allow for
thickness variation within the same sheet.
Trickier than you wish for joinery!
on we roll,
Walt

[Dave Tesch]

i'll take some pics soon and fess up as the box is now finished. you guys may not like the 5 coats of truck bed liner (tough stuff!) but it is a utility box in function.

this bad ply experience overshadows the incredible TS experience i had with this project and that is unfortunate; see i had just got my delta TS (beisemeyer fence) dialed in and this was the first project i cut on it. every peice came out true which is a first for me as i am used to the $100 wobble TS where nothing comes out true. all the pieces fit together right off the bat without gaps or need to 'fudge' any pieces. that was a thrill!

on a happier note yesterday i spent most of the day making another box - this time an instrument case out of BC pine and i had the same great experience with the peices fitting together only this time there was not voids or tearouts at all. i did get one tiny missing chunk on one edge about 1/4" by 1/8" deep so no worries there.

i took the uncut wood and got all the way to an assembled box, routed out holes for hardware and cut the box in two peices in under a day, which is the fastest i have been able to work to date.

i love my new saw!

[Dave Tesch]

i went and took some pics. some didn't turn out well, so some of the damage on the box will be fuzzy.

heres the saw:

http://inlinethumb28.webshots.com/28955/2260589860026985969S425x425Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2260589860026985969ytThjK)

no splitter:

http://inlinethumb42.webshots.com/43625/2048123680026985969S425x425Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2048123680026985969pSrxtz)

splitter: i added this part and i love it.

http://inlinethumb61.webshots.com/43132/2872762780026985969S425x425Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2872762780026985969QJjJKd)

http://inlinethumb39.webshots.com/43878/2256796240026985969S425x425Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2256796240026985969XzNizw)

here is the box made from crappy plywood:

http://inlinethumb27.webshots.com/11866/2605311250026985969S425x425Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2605311250026985969WtKyVc)

excuse the tires and mess. my shopmate is kinda that way..

this is one of the cracks that showed up after i had filled everything. this crack isnt so bad, and probably could have been filled again. i couldnt get any good shots of the more serious ones as the pics just turned out black.

http://inlinethumb20.webshots.com/43731/2413974070026985969S425x425Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2413974070026985969HqmFVX)

http://inlinethumb58.webshots.com/43833/2086614140026985969S425x425Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2086614140026985969UOIWru)

this kind of stuff is all over the box, much of it a lot worse. there is one crack that is 4" where the center ply just vanished before i painted it.

here is inside the box

http://inlinethumb15.webshots.com/44878/2474024830026985969S425x425Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2474024830026985969rsbZMK)

it is very hard to see but here is where of the boards ai actually starting to split in two in the center. the screws are holding it together.

http://inlinethumb34.webshots.com/44385/2287148110026985969S425x425Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2287148110026985969tTojkw)

another bad pic where the outer ply has lifted. i'm finding its really hard to take pics of black boxes.

http://inlinethumb61.webshots.com/44604/2148994400026985969S425x425Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2148994400026985969VZATac)

this box turned out really well, no delaminations, no cracks but the paint has taken a beating.

http://inlinethumb62.webshots.com/17853/2976939590026985969S425x425Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2976939590026985969GIVGgD)

here is the one i built yesterday. it has been sanded and quarter rounded since this pic. not one crack and only one small void

http://inlinethumb19.webshots.com/11794/2026287770026985969S425x425Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2026287770026985969lHZDzi)

none of these pics do it justice. i showed the box and remaining boards to my shopmate and his words were "wow, thats a really crappy piece of plywood"

[Dave Tesch]

i got the unfinished box in the pics completed. no voids, no cracks.

my friend and i were looking at some scraps of the birch ply and found some dark weird stuff in there, like bark or really old crappy boards. neat.

[Rick Gooden]

I buy Maple 3/4 ply from Mennards on a regular basis (probably 30 or so sheets this year), and have been well pleased with it. Costs around $50. I was in Mennards just the other day and needed to get some oak plywood so while I was there I looked at the birch, etc, thinking of this thread. They actually had 3 grades of birch ranging from $39 to $50. The cheapest grade was from china, the middle and upper grades were U.S. made. I don't recall the difference but it was significant enough for me to recognize that I would only by the top grade. I picked up some oak, $54, and later noticed it was plain sawn instead of rotary. That was a pleasant surprise. I have tried plywood from the orange and blue borgs and was always disappointed. Mennards top quality plywood compares favorably to what I get at the local good quality lumber yard, but at a lower price.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Was looking around HD today and saw A-C plywood from Chile - not China.

I just picked up some of this for a project the wife wanted (shop-type storage for the garage). It's was about $24/sheet (4'x8'). It looked good, cut well, and had almost no noticeable voids. There were a few patches on the face, and although they looked great for shop-grade stuff, I doubt very much that "all the local cabinet makers buy it all up" like the woman at HD claimed. Still - for shop cabinets or other uses, it looks very good. I went back and picked up another few sheets, just to have on hand.

[Shawn Pixley]

I was building some under bed storage - Basically a boxes with a piano hinged top for holding out of season clothes. Used 2 Sheets of good looking birch 1/2" ply from Lowes. I was going to do a very simple neatly joined box (dado / rabbet lock joint) and dado-ed bottom. After cutting to size and preparing rabbets and dadoes stopped for the night. There were a few voids but seemingly insignificant. When starting next day, sheets had warped overnight and boxes would no longer fit together, After fiddling with it for over an hour, I gave up on the dado-ed bottom and decided I would cut down a little and rout a rabbet in the bottom. I could manage to get the sides together.

After letting the glue dry overnight, started routing the rabbet with new Whiteside bit. At about 2/3 of the way around, Bit hit a void and the plys explode about 4" across surface ply. Does this more times in next 12". By this time I am too exasperated to continue (my one day project was now into 3rd day).

I gave up on this version and revamped design so that I could work with limitations of the remainder of the plywood I had on hand. I finished it in a day. I destroyed the first due to my frustration so I can't show pictures.

Bottom line, while the ply wood cut well on the table saw, the twist after and the voids have driven me from plywood except from a cabinet shop lumber yard (more $$). When closely examining the plywood the veneers were overlapped or had big voids. Uniformity of thickness seemed to rely on which piece I was looking at (which worker laid up?).

[Curt Harms]

I bought a few sheets of 1/2" oak in H.D. for $29/sheet on clearance. Made some cabinets out of it and made it work but it certainly wasn't smooth. SWMBO wanted a "broom closet" 6'10" high so I got flat sawn oak from Industrial Plywood in Reading, PA. I think it was around $72/sheet but what a joy to work with. Smooth, no voids, even thickness (.72", probably 19mm) Cut it and it stays flat, 49"X97" so I could make 2 cuts and still have 48+"X 96+" of goods.

[george wilson]

Those are very nice boxes. I hope they don't give you further trouble. Could you find some kind of aluminum angle molding to attach around the edges? That would at least hide future cracks if you cannot get better plywood.It would also look like intended extra protection.