Free hand cuts on table saw?

[Erik Frederiksen]

Sooo, I've read in a couple places lately, "Never hold the work freehand" or words to that effect. I admit I never had formal training on a table saw, but have used one extensively. I have also freehanded cuts on more occasions than I can remember and never had a problem. So am I unusually lucky? Unusually skilled? Or, is the advice I've been reading not so expert?

What are your experiences? When you've run into problems with your table saw, were you free handing?

I guess I'm curious as to other people's experiences with this particular technique.

[glenn bradley]

Unusually lucky. The material should always ride against the fence, miter gauge or other guide for control.

[Keith Christopher]

This is not a technique. This is a timebomb.the table saw is not meant to be used in this fashion and is dangerous. I would cease this form of operation immediately ! There are different ways to use a table saw but they all involve stops and fences and mitre gauges.

Please discontinue the use in this manner before you or someone gets hurt. Want to freehand, use a bandsaw.

[Mike Null]

Free hand cutting on the tablesaw will soon lead to no-hand cutting.

[johnny means]

What are you cutting freehand? Are you doing real table saw type work (ripping or sizing) or just chopping a little piece of trim in half? What saw? I have done freehand cuts on jobsite saws that are little more than upside down circular saws. Would I ever do it on a "real" saw? Heck, no!

[Erik Frederiksen]

You hear stories sometimes and you wonder if they are stories so you ask what the reality is.

I am just wondering if anyone has actually had a problem with freehanding, or are they just repeating stories that they have heard. Do you see my question?

[Erik Frederiksen]

Good return question Johnny. The recent cuts that I can remember were material less than 4/4 and were on a jobsite saw. When I think about it, I would probably opt out of freehanding anything into a blade with 3 or 5 hp behind it.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Erik,

Think about the physics involved.

What will produce a "catch" that results in something being thrown back at you? When ripping a piece if either side or both sides come together on the back end of the blade. The pinching action will cause the blade to try to slow down initially and then catch the wood and throw it back at you. If you are using a rip fence and it's properly aligned and you have a splitter or riving knife, the possibility of this happening is decreased. The splitter/riving knife should prevent it and...the fence if used properly will keep the wood moving in a linear fashion.

When you freehand you stand a much bigger chance of not moving the wood in a very exacting linear fashion...ie. twisting it momentarily and the wood catches and gets thrown back at you.

Any time the wood is thrown or moved rapidly without you being in 100% control, you stand in having a hand fingers or arms thrown into the path of the blade. Check the statistics of the number of folks injured annually by table saws. They are perhaps one of the greatest causes of amputations and injuries.


Beyond that, wood can be thrown back with enough force to pierce walls, paneling, wood, doors, windows etc. There are numerous pictures out there to testify to that fact.

I'm one of the old guys here who doesn't operate his saw without the factory splitter and blade guard UNLESS I can't perform the operation with them on (usually using my dado set). I work daily on x-ray systems and cat scanners that use power supplies that can put up to 160,000 volts DC to the x-ray tube. I've been working on high powered electronics for over 40 years. You can count the number of times I've been shocked on 1 hand. Safety is no accident. It is well thought out and planned ahead of time.

Learn to do it safely. I wouldn't advise freehanding.

[johnny means]

You hear stories sometimes and you wonder if they are stories so you ask what the reality is.

I am just wondering if anyone has actually had a problem with freehanding, or are they just repeating stories that they have heard. Do you see my question?

Years ago, when i was working at my first shop, the shop drunk tried to crosscut a 25" x 96" piece of flake board freehand. He stood to the left of the saw and tried to cut about 3' off the end of said board. Needless to say halfway through the cut the board kicked back, snapped off and the 3' off cut went flying across the shop narrowly missing one of our shopmates who had just knelled down to file underneath a countertop. We're talking inches or seconds away from a serious if not deadly head injury.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,
Safety aside - why would anyone want to freehand cuts on a TS anyhow?
Seems rather pointless to me.:confused:

[Myk Rian]

I've done it with sheet goods, but it sure ain't fun.

[Rod Sheridan]

Erik, you're unusually lucky, however you have the redeeming quality of being curious, which leads you to investigate safety issues.

I have a friend who doesn't have his entire thumb on his left hand, it's squared off about 8mm shorter than the right hand thumb.

He was trying to cut a taper on a piece of pine for a bird feeder.

He had his left hand near the rear of the blade holding the wood, his right hand near the front of the blade pushing the wood.

To this day Harry has no recollection of what happened except a loud bang, a piece of flying wood, and a slight burning sensation in his thumb.

No guide method, no splitter, no guard, no thumb.

I had once set up a gang rip to produce stock for a moulder, cut from 8/4 red oak.

One of the operators feeding the gang rip, thought one piece out of the lift was thinner than the rest, however he fed it anyway.

He was right, it must have been an offcut that got in with the other material because it was almost 1/2" thinner than the others.

Well, the gang rip suddenly went from a guided system, to a free hand system as the conveyors couldn't grip the thinner material.

Free hand on a 60HP saw isn't recommended either, as pieces came out the infeed and outfeed, destroyed two blades, and I'm sure the two operators needed new underwear.

So yes, you've been lucky, and smart enough to ask the correct questions.

Regards, Rod.

[Dell Littlefield]

Three days before a trip of a lifetime elk hunt, my buddy cancelled out. He lost three fingers (including his trigger finger) by doing this. In his case, he was free hand cutting scraps for kindling with the blade fully raised. We missed him in camp and brought him some meat but he had to have help cutting it.

[Erik Frederiksen]

I really appreciate everyone's replies. I recently bought my first table saw, so I guess table saw use was on my mind.

The table saw is, for me, the scariest woodworking tool, I know the statistics. And I do find myself, on occasion doing some woodworking task in a manner that is efficient time-wise, but that feels unsafe. I'd like to stop doing this.

The next time I think that freehanding something through a table saw is expedient, I'll make a point to find another way.

I still have 10 whole fingers after around 7 years of woodworking and I'd like to keep it that way.

[glenn bradley]

I have done freehand cuts on jobsite saws that are little more than upside down circular saws. Would I ever do it on a "real" saw? Heck, no!

Please be careful Johnny, I have seen some horrible damage done by circular saws.

[Lee Schierer]

The bigger the saw and the bigger the Hp the more dangerous freehand cutting becomes. You might haf teh strength to hold onto a piece that jams on a 1 Hp saw, but it will be a totally different animal at 3 Hp and bigger.

Never free hand cut, never crosscut with the fence and the crosscut guide at the same time and never ever lower a piece of work to be cut onto a moving blade.

[george wilson]

Even freehand cutting on a VERY low powered table saw can cause you serious damage. When the saw grabs it happens so quickly you don't have time to react. Hands in the wrong place,and you're permanently screwed.

[Prashun Patel]

If you freehand the cut, there is a significant increase in the probability that your piece will contact the back of the blade before it reaches the splitter. If yr comfortable with yr odds, then do whatever you like.

Personally, if the goods are so large that using a miter fence or the saw's fence are impractical, it prefer using a circular saw

[Brian Kent]

Trying to trim a cabinet door, I wrecked the piece as it spun across the blade. Luckily I did not get hit or cut.

On an $89 Ryobi table saw, I had 2 kickbacks. One freehand that almost broke two fingers. Another using a fence but no splitter I had a gut hit that surprised me with no actual internal damage - just felt like it. Both times the table saw motor was very weak and the saw itself was way too flexible.

As I crouched down on the floor holding my stomach I decided to get a sturdy cabinet saw with parts that could be used safely (fence, splitter, miter gauge, incra sled).

[Richard Magbanua]

"So am I unusually lucky? Unusually skilled? Or, is the advice I've been reading not so expert?"

you have to be very careful with the "advice" you get. Take this video for example...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp-bQQl3FWY

This guy (or his family) should be in the hospital. The video definition of DUMB. Scary thing is some people get their "advice" from him!

Good thing is that you're asking about safety, and that's important. If you have any other safety questions please, please, please, ask away!

[Bob Carreiro]

I've done it, and although there is a highened potential for accidents with free-hand cutting verses other methods, I don't see myself stopping the practice. It has it's place in my shop. When it is recognized that a hightened danger exists with a specific task, sufficient risk midigation is taken. The key is to know the what, when & why of the potential danger and avoid/compensate for it.
Would I advise free-hand cutting on the TS? Absolutely not, especially for those who have to ask! None the less, I don't hesitate when the benefit outweighs the danger. As I perform the cuts, I observe and "expect" the blade "catch" the material and I press forward - sometimes compensating with more pressure to one side verses the other - always assuming a reactive posture should the material bind the blade. This "practice" comes with much experience. I am comfortable around the TS, yet I respect it.
If your interested, I'll tell ya of an accident back in 1971 when I nearly severed my FOOT on a TS in a small shipyard in Rhode Island. Now THAT's a TS story!

Bob
(PS: NO! I wasn't free-hand cutting!)

[Cody Colston]

I probably shouldn't do this as it will just give the Norm detractors ammunition but a few years ago, on an early episode, I saw Norm freehand crosscut a piece on the TS. He even said, "I'll just freehand this cut." I only saw him do it that one time and I'm sure the show probably got tons of mail from the safety police telling him how dangerous it was.

I don't do freehand cuts on the TS but if you want to see a bunch of "dangerous" methods when using saws, go to a construction site. Be it laying a 2x4 across one knee and cutting it with a circular saw or freehanding a cut on a jobsite TS, those guys will do it. They are pros but you don't want to learn from them, either.

It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to look at a running TS and realize that a little education on it's use would be appropriate. Anyone who doesn't realize that probably shouldn't be contributing to the gene pool, anyway.

[Rod Sheridan]

OK Bob, I have to ask how you cut your foot on a tablesaw.

What were you doing, table dancing????????

Regards, Rod.

[John Schreiber]

Why would you want to cut something free hand?

Is there anything you can do that you can't do with appropriate equipment, or is it just to save a second?

[Mike Foreman]

I've seen too many people missing fingers and hands to ever try to freehand anything on a table saw.

The first time I ever used a table saw for my Dad, he went into great detail about safety and had me push the board through with a long stick. He's got more than 40 years of construction experience, and I have little doubt that he could freehand anything he wanted while still being (relatively) safe, which is why it really drove the point he was making home - Table saws are dangerous, and you just can't be too careful.

I'd be more than a little upset if I lost a finger because I took a shortcut.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

OK Bob, I have to ask how you cut your foot on a tablesaw.

What were you doing, table dancing????????

Regards, Rod.

That wouldn't be nearly as dangerous as pole dancing with a bandsaw!:eek::rolleyes:

[Bob Carreiro]

I occasionally perform free-hand cuts on the TS and do not see myself stopping the practice. Would I advise it? Certainly not. If you have to ask, you're not prepared. Experience prepares you. It is only when experience recognizes the risk of a task (i.e., the what, when & why's of it's causes), can sufficient risk midigation be taken and practices used to prevent or compensate for their causes.

Rarely do accidents occur with highly perceived dangerous tasks. Why? Because ample consideration is directed to the dangers involved! Taking a reactive posture in mind and body, keeping alert to forward pressure verses blade reaction, the cutting line parallel to the blade, etc., all are necessary ingrediants to safe free-hand cut.

I know this will raise hairs on many-a-neck, but none the less, it's reality: I've worked in three cabinet shops and two shipyards (as a ship's joiner) and have never seen blade guards installed (neither do I use them). Their abscence do not "cause" the accident! Accidents are due primarily to inattention to a task (I speak of the experienced worker, not the novice) and rarely during higher risk evolutions. Why? Because everyone EXPECTS a condition and watches for the conditions and are prepared for it to occur. Knowledge, experience and attention will tell you what you can and cannot do. Well.... take that for what's it's worth to ya.

Now if ya think THAT rubs against the grain, I'll tell you how I nearly severed my FOOT (clean off my leg) on a TS back in '71 in a small Rhode Island shipyard. Now THAT's a story that'll raise some hairs. It did, mine!


Bob Carreiro, Poulsbo, WA

PS: And, "NO!" It was not during a free-hand cut, either!

[Brian Kent]

Ken, I coulda gone all day without that image.:eek:

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bob,

I will argue that even admitting that you do it is not a wise thing.

Some folks reading this might not be as intelligent or experienced as you. Some young inexperienced overconfident beginner might read this and end up with a severe injury.

JMHO

[Erik Frederiksen]

Now if ya think THAT rubs against the grain, I'll tell you how I nearly severed my FOOT (clean off my leg) on a TS back in '71 in a small Rhode Island shipyard. Now THAT's a story that'll raise some hairs. It did, mine!


Bob Carreiro, Poulsbo, WA

PS: And, "NO!" It was not during a free-hand cut, either!

Hi Bob,

I worked at a couple of small Rhode Island shipyards too! In the 1980s I worked at Essex Boat Works as a carpenter doing yacht repair, and also for Brion Rieff, again as a carpenter, this time building racing yachts.

Erik

[Bill White]

Ain't enough whiskey in Mississippi to make me that brave(or any other word ya wanna insert). I've been hit once about 40 yrs ago. Still remember trying to get up off the ground and breathe again. Dang, it hurt. :eek:
Bill

[Jason Beam]

The fact that you posted the same information twice in just over an hour, yet completely typed it out all over again makes me question your faculties, Bob. :confused:

I certainly hope you hold to your claim of paying closer attention to your actions when making such a dangerous cut.... :eek::eek::eek:

Like Cody says ... maybe some of the folks who think its okay shouldn't be contributing to the gene pool. :o


I've done it, and although there is a highened potential for accidents with free-hand cutting verses other methods, I don't see myself stopping the practice. It has it's place in my shop. When it is recognized that a hightened danger exists with a specific task, sufficient risk midigation is taken. The key is to know the what, when & why of the potential danger and avoid/compensate for it.
Would I advise free-hand cutting on the TS? Absolutely not, especially for those who have to ask! None the less, I don't hesitate when the benefit outweighs the danger. As I perform the cuts, I observe and "expect" the blade "catch" the material and I press forward - sometimes compensating with more pressure to one side verses the other - always assuming a reactive posture should the material bind the blade. This "practice" comes with much experience. I am comfortable around the TS, yet I respect it.
If your interested, I'll tell ya of an accident back in 1971 when I nearly severed my FOOT on a TS in a small shipyard in Rhode Island. Now THAT's a TS story!

Bob
(PS: NO! I wasn't free-hand cutting!)



I occasionally perform free-hand cuts on the TS and do not see myself stopping the practice. Would I advise it? Certainly not. If you have to ask, you're not prepared. Experience prepares you. It is only when experience recognizes the risk of a task (i.e., the what, when & why's of it's causes), can sufficient risk midigation be taken and practices used to prevent or compensate for their causes.

Rarely do accidents occur with highly perceived dangerous tasks. Why? Because ample consideration is directed to the dangers involved! Taking a reactive posture in mind and body, keeping alert to forward pressure verses blade reaction, the cutting line parallel to the blade, etc., all are necessary ingrediants to safe free-hand cut.

I know this will raise hairs on many-a-neck, but none the less, it's reality: I've worked in three cabinet shops and two shipyards (as a ship's joiner) and have never seen blade guards installed (neither do I use them). Their abscence do not "cause" the accident! Accidents are due primarily to inattention to a task (I speak of the experienced worker, not the novice) and rarely during higher risk evolutions. Why? Because everyone EXPECTS a condition and watches for the conditions and are prepared for it to occur. Knowledge, experience and attention will tell you what you can and cannot do. Well.... take that for what's it's worth to ya.

Now if ya think THAT rubs against the grain, I'll tell you how I nearly severed my FOOT (clean off my leg) on a TS back in '71 in a small Rhode Island shipyard. Now THAT's a story that'll raise some hairs. It did, mine!


Bob Carreiro, Poulsbo, WA

PS: And, "NO!" It was not during a free-hand cut, either!

[Bob Carreiro]

That's funny. That is exactly what the shipyard wanted my partner (we worked in pairs) to say in court!

The saw was an "open" design with no sides. Four legs supported the top and narrow rails connected the legs. (The motor was mounted to the table-top underside.) I was supporting the 1/4" - 4 X 8 sheet of asbestos covered on one side with formica (before it was recognized as an apparent danger) as my parner pushed the sheet through the blade. The blade was over-sized for the throat of the plate and only an inch or so was above the table. The majority of the 12" blade was below. It was October 19, 1971 and the ship, with a metal deck fresh from assembly was pier side as dew gathered on the unpainted surfaces. As asbestos is cut, it's dust expands exponentially and appears as "snow" falling around the saw. Needless to say, anywhere around the saw is extremely slippary - like slushy snow. As I supported the sheet, slowly walking backward, my left foot slipped out from under me and just "touched" the bottom of the up-rotating blade edge. The blade immediately "threw it up" through the finger plate and there resided my foot, stuck into the throat of the saw as the blade spun through the middle of my boot. I tried "pushing" against the saw with my other leg as I layed on my back, but my foot was wedged. My partner dove for the chord (the swich hidden under his end of the sheet stock) and the rest is history.

So as you see, even if you don't dance (on a TS), it can still cut your foot off! And incidently, even if a blade guard were installed, which it wasn't, it would not have protected my foot.

One more thing... I do not recommend free-hand cutting on the TS. That wasn't my intention (am also sorry for the double post - I hit my space bar twice and bang... didn't know what happened, so I kept on editing). I did want to inform, however, and state the obvious to readers. I too have all ten fingers (one is a little thinner - but that's another story for another time - something about a thickness planner in Honolulu) and all ten toes, but five of 'em don't bend. :(


Bob

[Tony De Masi]

Never seen it done before today. Had some engineered flooring put in the basement. Several cuts were made freehand on the TS, which was a portable DeWalt. I couldn't watch after the first cut.

Tony

[John Schreiber]

. . . And incidently, even if a blade guard were installed, which it wasn't, it would not have protected my foot. . . .
Now we will have to have a discussion about saws with no cabinet and blades exposed top and bottom. For the record, I'm against.

[Don Alexander]

i'm highly tempted to post how i really feel about those who cut freehand on a TS but i promised when i signed up for this forum that i would keep any posting polite and i for sure couldn't be polite on this topic :eek:

[Sherzod Niazov]

Sooo, I've read in a couple places lately, "Never hold the work freehand" or words to that effect. I admit I never had formal training on a table saw, but have used one extensively. I have also freehanded cuts on more occasions than I can remember and never had a problem. So am I unusually lucky? Unusually skilled? Or, is the advice I've been reading not so expert?

What are your experiences? When you've run into problems with your table saw, were you free handing?

I guess I'm curious as to other people's experiences with this particular technique.

Erik, table saw, when used properly even with safety measures installed (splitter, blade guard) is one of the most dangerous tools in a woodworking shop. Free-hand cutting greatly increases chances of an accident.

As far as safety goes, I recently started asking myself "What would you do if an accident had occurred?" The answer comes quickly and is very definite.

I've had accidents, luckily still count 10 on both hands. Please be careful.

Just curious... can you even get an accurate, quality cut freehand? maybe it would make sense to use a band saw.

Sher.

[Alex Shanku]

" maybe some of the folks who think its okay shouldn't be contributing to the gene pool. :o"

" i'm highly tempted to post how i really feel about those who cut freehand on a TS but i promised when i signed up for this forum that i would keep any posting polite and i for sure couldn't be polite on this topic"


--Wow. This much aggression towards how another man does something that in no way affects you is pretty strange.

[Darius Ferlas]

You hear stories sometimes and you wonder if they are stories so you ask what the reality is.

I am just wondering if anyone has actually had a problem with freehanding, or are they just repeating stories that they have heard. Do you see my question?

I tried that about 20 years ago. It was supposed to be a simple crosscut of a 2 foot 2x4. I never tried that again. I was lucky my index finger was only dislocated and that the flying wood tore out only a tiny piece of flesh out of my thumb. I still have a little "dent" close to the fingernail. The bumps on the torso hurt a bit but bruises were only superficial.

Other than lottery, I can't think of many things where luck alone is an acceptable strategy. Certainly not when it comes to machines that can mince your body parts in a blink of an eye and then keep on going.

[Steve Rowe]

I never have and never will so I will never be able to offer a success or failure story on the topic. But then, I also do not bungee jump, jump out of perfectly good airplanes or most other high risk activities either.

Free handing a piece of wood using only one control surface into many sharp teeth traveling at about 100mph doesn't even sound safe. I have experienced kickback on several occasions and it is a most unpleasant experience. I would expect it is similar to a mishap on free handing. Besides, why make unnecessary challenges to the theory of natural selection?:D

[Jason White]

I've seen some carpenters do it on job-sites. Usually it's trim carpenters scribing something to fit a wavy floor, wall or ceiling.

Not sure I'm brave enough to try it myself.

Jason


Sooo, I've read in a couple places lately, "Never hold the work freehand" or words to that effect. I admit I never had formal training on a table saw, but have used one extensively. I have also freehanded cuts on more occasions than I can remember and never had a problem. So am I unusually lucky? Unusually skilled? Or, is the advice I've been reading not so expert?

What are your experiences? When you've run into problems with your table saw, were you free handing?

I guess I'm curious as to other people's experiences with this particular technique.

[jerry nazard]

.... (am also sorry for the double post - I hit my space bar twice and bang... didn't know what happened, so I kept on editing). I did want to inform, however, and state the obvious to readers. I too have all ten fingers (one is a little thinner - but that's another story for another time - something about a thickness planner in Honolulu) and all ten toes, but five of 'em don't bend. :(


Bob


Bob,

I've done the same thing with hitting the wrong key. Go figure! As to TS free hand, I did it once. 50 or so years ago. Once was enough.

-Jerry

[Frank Drew]

Freehand cutting on the band saw? Fine. On the table saw? Sorry, but that's really dumb; there, I said it, and I don't care how long someone has been doing it. I've known knuckleheads who drove every time they got drunk, and some of them were lucky and never caused a bad accident. Is that supposed to make it a reasonable thing to do?

But at least we've narrowed the problem down to Rhode Island shipyards :D!

[Jason Beam]

" maybe some of the folks who think its okay shouldn't be contributing to the gene pool. :o"

" i'm highly tempted to post how i really feel about those who cut freehand on a TS but i promised when i signed up for this forum that i would keep any posting polite and i for sure couldn't be polite on this topic"


--Wow. This much aggression towards how another man does something that in no way affects you is pretty strange.

Contempt for stupidity isn't entirely as unreasonable as you suggest. If nobody criticizes, how does a society improve itself? I believe calling people out on unwise acts is beneficial for onlookers as well as the person performing those acts. Judging others because they don't choose to let dangerous practices slide is equally juxtaposed to your apparent "live and let live" attitude.

I reject the idea that, in a thread asking for opinions, somehow expressing an opinion is "strange".

[Frank Drew]

you have to be very careful with the "advice" you get. Take this video for example...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp-bQQl3FWY


Richard, the funny part is that at the beginning of the video the guy says (talking about his dust mask) "I'm really getting into this safety stuff", then proceeds blatantly to violate just about every table saw safe practice.

[jerry nazard]

Richard, the funny part is that at the beginning of the video the guy says (talking about his dust mask) "I'm really getting into this safety stuff", then proceeds blatantly to violate just about every table saw safe practice.

I viewed the video. Quite enjoyable!! The viewer comments were good also. I bet this guy does some great demos with firearms. Russian Roulette?

What an idiot. Is his daughter sitting right in the path of a kickback?

[Bo Jones]

I can't believe all the descriptions of injuries from table saws because of their inherent dangers from a fixed blade and moving wood and no one mentions rails. Fixed wood and moving blade out of the way of fingers, hands, feet. It would be well worth your time and your body parts to explore rail systems of any brand.

Bo

[Brian Penning]

I dunno...this guy seems to have everything in control....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9Qp6xO_sOU&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.google.ca%2Fvideosearch%3F hl%3Den%26resnum%3D0%26q%3Dtable%2520saw%2520carvi ng%26um%3D1%26ie%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwv&feature=player_embedded#t=15

[Bob Grassley]

I suspect that impatience is the key factor in free handing on a table saw.

If one needs to scribe to a wavy surface, draw a line with a pencil and use a hand plane (or a power plane, whatever). If you need to put a taper on long board, make a guide rail and use a circular saw. Heck, with a guide rail a circular saw can be very precise.

Like one of the earlier posters, I have seen someone free hand cut kindling on a raised saw blade. Unbelievably foolish. And the poster who said it is good to call people out on dangerous behaviors, right on.

I cannot think of an operation in which free handing is ever the preferred solution.

bob

[Peter Quinn]

Good return question Johnny. The recent cuts that I can remember were material less than 4/4 and were on a jobsite saw. When I think about it, I would probably opt out of freehanding anything into a blade with 3 or 5 hp behind it.

That's funny Erik. A carpenter friend of mine is accustomed to "scribing" base boards and such free hand on job site table saws and has done so for years. He was working in my shop helping me with a remodel when I caught him getting ready to do it with my 5HP cabinet saw. I advised against it, he blew me off saying he does it all the time. About half way into the cut, just as he started turning the curve, WHAMO, it shot back at him and knocked him on his butt. Once I was sure he wasn't hurt seriously, I laughed at him for probably 5 minutes. Man did he have a serious bruise on his stomach and ribs. Just not smart. I think he mumbled something like "I can usually control those cuts on my saw". Yeah, sure, when a saw bogs down cutting a popsicle stick, you may have a little leverage freehand. But if a saw doesn't bog down with a full kerf blade full up in maple, not a good idea to treat it like a jig saw or a bandsaw.

The irony with my friend was that two feet away was a perfectly good BS set up for curves, but he wasn't "comfortable" with a BS! He didn't think all that blade spinning round was safe. Seriously.

[Frank Drew]

Illustrates pretty well that just because someone does something "for a living" it doesn't mean that they've learned how to do it properly.

[Leo Graywacz]

Over my 20 year career in WW I have done many freehand cuts on a 3HP TS. I have never had an incident or even an inkling of one. You need to know that you have to go in a straight line, you have to start it into the blade correctly, you can hear it when you are veering off of straight. If you ignore the obvious signs or go to quickly to even respect the obvious signs you are going to eat a board or worse.

When I do it I am very aware of what I am trying to accomplish, and I make sure that the pc is stable and a lot of times I will put a kerf holder in the board so it can't squeeze down on the blade.

[Alex Shanku]

Over my 20 year career in WW I have done many freehand cuts on a 3HP TS. I have never had an incident or even an inkling of one. You need to know that you have to go in a straight line, you have to start it into the blade correctly, you can hear it when you are veering off of straight. If you ignore the obvious signs or go to quickly to even respect the obvious signs you are going to eat a board or worse.

When I do it I am very aware of what I am trying to accomplish, and I make sure that the pc is stable and a lot of times I will put a kerf holder in the board so it can't squeeze down on the blade.


Lookout, Leo.

Ive seen Holocaust deniers get treated much easier on the internet than those who "free hand cut"

[Jason Beam]

Lookout, Leo.

Ive seen Holocaust deniers get treated much easier on the internet than those who "free hand cut"

Excuse me, but what possible purpose could comparing critics of freehand cutting on the table saw to those who question such a horrific event in our species history serve?

Really, why on earth could you possibly think it was okay to diminish such a catastrophic event for the purposes of whining about getting criticized over something so obvious?

When does baseless hyperbole become a rational defense?

I owe you thanks. Thank you for allowing me to see just how you think.

Unbelievable.

[jerry nazard]

Actually, why is this thread continuing anyway?
Can we please start an Off Topic discussion on Russian Roulette?

[michael osadchuk]

I think the strong recommendation against 'freehand' sawing on a tablesaw is good and is of an order of magnitude higher than the advice to use bladeguards, featherboards, splitter/riving knives - which we sometimes remove when a particular cut is difficult or impossible while this or that guard is in place. In those cases, the advice is to be alert, think thru the cut, don't attempt it when tired, etc.

I'd like to echo Ken and other's comment about the "physics" or perhaps, geometry of the tablesaw making the freehanding sawing very unwise even when you are alert, careful, etc.
Unless the saw cut line remains exactly parallel to the blade teeth and blade sides the wood will "catch" on the teeth or pinch on blade sides and bind, followed by the power the saw motor ejecting the wood back at the operator. I don't know how "out of parallel" the saw cut line has to be to cause a binding but it is obviously very little and beyond our practical ability to freehand a piece of wood "straight" through the blade with any reliability.
"How lucky do you feel today? (smiley)

I looked at Jim Tolpin's Tablesaw Magic book and one of his two warnings against freehand sawing occurs in relation to making tapered cuts, which would be one of the situations in which a person would be tempted to attempt such a cut on a tablesaw without making the effort to make a taper jig to guide the workpiece.

good luck

michael

[Alex Shanku]

Excuse me, but what possible purpose could comparing critics of freehand cutting on the table saw to those who question such a horrific event in our species history serve?

Really, why on earth could you possibly think it was okay to diminish such a catastrophic event for the purposes of whining about getting criticized over something so obvious?

When does baseless hyperbole become a rational defense?

I owe you thanks. Thank you for allowing me to see just how you think.

Unbelievable.


Lighten up, Francis.

Your attempt to totally misconstrue my tongue-in-cheek remark as something greater makes you look irrational.

If you want to take this to PM's, please do so.

[Nathan Callender]

Leo - could you give us a reason why this technique needs to be performed? I'm trying to think of a single good reason to free hand cut anything on a ts, but can't. It seems completely counter intuitive to the reason for using a ts in the first place (for accuracy). So, if you don't need the accuracy, why not use another, more suitable tool, like a jig saw?

I just don't get why anyone would WANT to cut something freehand on a table saw...

[Leo Graywacz]

Usually I am out in the field when I am doing this. I like the fact it is a square cut that is usually easier to sand.

Most of the times it is because the taper that I need to cut is on a very long board, something that would make a jig either hard to make or control.

I never said you need to do this. If you feel uncomfortable using the tool in this manner, don't. I use a jig when I can and the pc will fit. If it doesn't I freehand it.

Every day I go into my shop and use potentially dangerous and deadly tools. With the right mindset, practice and precision things that normally can't be done can.

If you want danger, just get into your car and drive down the road. If you really, really think about it, that is just a crazy thing to do.

[Frank Hagan]

You hear stories sometimes and you wonder if they are stories so you ask what the reality is.

I am just wondering if anyone has actually had a problem with freehanding, or are they just repeating stories that they have heard. Do you see my question?

The CPSC has a document relating the results of a study where they followed up on all power saw accidents that resulted in emergency room visits between October 1 and Dec. 31 of 2001, and had this stat buried in the study under the heading "The position of the left hand or right hand, with respect to the stock/cutting material, prior to/at the time of the incidents":



Pushing/feeding the stock into the saw blade - 6,810 injuries (65%).
Within this activity, a free-hand operation accounted for about 3,710 injuries, using a push block accounted for about 2,370 injuries, using a wood rest/miter gauge accounted for about 120 injuries,* the remaining 610 injuries* were unknown (whether a push block, a wood rest/miter gauge, or a free-hand was used when feeding the stock into the blade).
So out of that group of 6,810 injuries, at least 54% happened when doing a free hand operation.

The stat we don't know, and probably will never know, is how many woodworkers tried cutting freehand on a table saw, and what percentage of them were injured. That number is probably much higher than the number of woodworkers who used a miter gauge and were injured during that period.

[Peter Quinn]

I dunno...this guy seems to have everything in control....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9Qp6xO_sOU&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.google.ca%2Fvideosearch%3F hl%3Den%26resnum%3D0%26q%3Dtable%2520saw%2520carvi ng%26um%3D1%26ie%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwv&feature=player_embedded#t=15
Brian, that guy knows what he is doing. His blade is full up so teh teeth are pushing straight down, he is feeding against the blades rotation, and his stock never touches the back of the blade. I'm not saying I'd be quick to emulate that technique myself, but it isn't the most dangerous thing I can imagine. That would be that old post where the Brazilian luthier is resawing with a TS blade on a shaper with a basic fence and no guards. That makes my skin crawl.

[Peter Quinn]

So to anyone that has mastered the freehand rip on a TS, its time to move into some really BA territory, and try freehand ripping on the RAS! That will show what you are made of. And don't use one of those little 10" jobs. Pick a big 16"-24" industrial job, and go at it.. Then on to the running of the bulls and...I bet Hemmingway would have ripped freehand.

I should admit that I often freehand rip on a small tile saw, but it really doesn't kick back in any way.

[Dan Friedrichs]

So out of that group of 6,810 injuries, at least 54% happened when doing a free hand operation.


That's more than enough evidence to convince me....

[george wilson]

I think that if you use that very lightweight new Bosch saw freehand,you had better be careful that the saw doesn't suddenly jump and fall onto the floor. Maybe blade first? just a thought.

[phil harold]

Pushing/feeding the stock into the saw blade - 6,810 injuries (65%).
Within this activity, a free-hand operation accounted for about 3,710 injuries, using a push block accounted for about 2,370 injuries, using a wood rest/miter gauge accounted for about 120 injuries,* the remaining 610 injuries* were unknown (whether a push block, a wood rest/miter gauge, or a free-hand was used when feeding the stock into the blade).

I think there is something wrong here...

I will assume that 3710 injuries were done without a push block
and
using a push block accounted for about 2,370 injuries

makes a little mores sense that way



I am pleading the Fifth on the subject of freehanding on the table saw

[sean m. titmas]

Back in the day when I was working in the field doing remodels and additions there were many times when making a freehand cut on the TS was in line with our approach to production framing and trim work. You have to understand that man hours were a big factor in determining how we did certain things and the less man hours we spent on a task the better our bottom line was. If we didn’t do faster than someone else would and quite possibly win the next bid away from us. I’m not saying that it was a good business plan but that’s how we did it.

Framing and trimming houses for wages that were not much better than the poverty level made us work as efficient as we could and setting up a complex cutting guide or switching over to a second tool for just a few cuts was not fast, therefore we learned to make freehand cuts as safe as possible. Most times it was a taper cut on piece of 3/4" material like plywood or trim and once you learned what forces were at work when making freehand cuts you could use them to your advantage to make safe cuts. In addition to that you must know how to respond when things start to go bad.

There were some minor accidents by less skilled carpenters, who should never have been making those cuts, but I am happy to still have all my digits. Back than we did a lot of things that came under the category of "Do as I say but don’t do as I do". All judgments aside, that is how things are done in a production job site environment.

Fast forward 23 years to today and I find myself working in the shop with a huge spike in wages, with OSHA flexing its muscles on residential job sites, with advances in safer operating tools and tool systems, (like Festool`s cutting guide), and a shift of priority's from fast productions times over to a quality product and now there is no reason to use this technique anymore.

We are all adults here and realize that since we alone are responsible for our own safety than we should fully understand what the consequences and repercussions for our actions are. If you feel the need to make freehand cuts on the TS, understand that this is a very dangerous operation and there is the potential for disastrous results.

Be safe and have fun cutting wood.

[Larry Edgerton]

" maybe some of the folks who think its okay shouldn't be contributing to the gene pool. :o"

" i'm highly tempted to post how i really feel about those who cut freehand on a TS but i promised when i signed up for this forum that i would keep any posting polite and i for sure couldn't be polite on this topic"


--Wow. This much aggression towards how another man does something that in no way affects you is pretty strange.

Alex, its not strange, its disgusting. It is the main reason that I come here less and less.

[Jason Roehl]

Leo - could you give us a reason why this technique needs to be performed? I'm trying to think of a single good reason to free hand cut anything on a ts, but can't. It seems completely counter intuitive to the reason for using a ts in the first place (for accuracy). So, if you don't need the accuracy, why not use another, more suitable tool, like a jig saw?

I just don't get why anyone would WANT to cut something freehand on a table saw...


Necessity is sometimes the mother of invention.

I've done quite a few freehand cuts on a TS (smaller ones, I've never actually used a Unisaw/PM/SS). Usually I do it when I need to make a cut that is only slightly off-parallel, say a few degrees. It's common when you're laying wood flooring in a house without truly square walls (I've been in a lot of those). With jobsite saws, it's really no different than drawing a line on a piece of wood and cutting it with a circular saw. I can always tell if I'm not feeding the piece straight enough because the saw will start to bog down, and there's plenty of time to correct. Without correction, the saw will come to a stop.

I know what the risks are, and I'm comfortable with the operation. My safety devices are mostly above shoulder level and are all active throughout the operation--eyes, ears, nose and brain. In addition, if I feel like I am suddenly having to use much more force to push a board through, I know something is not right.

Basically, I don't rely on safety devices. It's like gun safety--every gun should be treated as if it were loaded, whether it is or not. If you're always pointing the gun in a safe direction, it doesn't matter if the safety fails and the gun unexpectedly fires. Safety devices and jigs can fail. Splitters can bend, guards can get jammed, fences can move, etc. So, throughout a TS operation, I am thinking about what would happen if the board were suddenly not there.

[Dan Friedrichs]

I've done quite a few freehand cuts on a TS (smaller ones, I've never actually used a Unisaw/PM/SS).


Perhaps that's the key point, here. On a benchtop saw, it's questionable if the saw would have enough power to throw the work back at you if you were really firmly holding it down (you'd just bog down the motor). But you'd be insane to try it on a cabinet saw.

I still wouldn't do it. If you're doing something like ripping a slight angle on flooring to fit an out-of-square wall, Delta (et al) makes a 9" bandsaw that can be had on CL for <$20 that would be perfect for such a job. $20 seems like a cheap price to never have to freehand on a TS!




Larry says: "Alex, its not strange, its disgusting. It is the main reason that I come here less and less. "

You're saying you wouldn't get upset if you saw someone looking town the barrel of a loaded gun? Or lighting a fire with gasoline? I may not know you, or even like you, but I'd still feel bad if you lost a finger. There are a lot of smart people here, and IMHO, it's well worth the time to have discussions about safety with them - we can all always learn more.

[Jason Roehl]

The problem is, Dan, that when I'm laying flooring, I'm already struggling to get all the necessary tools into the work vehicle.

Would I do it on a cabinet saw? Probably not--the only place I'd use one would be in a dedicated shop where it would likely be easy to make the appropriate jig. Heck, I have one I bought years ago, it's just that it sits in a corner somewhere forgotten until after I could have used it.

I've even done stopped/started cuts on my portable TS...I'm totally comfortable doing those, too. Not because I don't think they're unsafe, but because I know that I've acquired the skill through self-teaching to do them. I didn't just rush into doing them blindly.

Let me ask this: how many here would climb a 40' ladder that is not tied off at the top? OSHA says you have to, but I don't know of any painters (that's what I mostly do, but I do wood floors also) locally who DO tie off their ladders.

[Nathan Callender]

Fair enough - I guess to each his own, but as a hobbyist, I can't imagine wanting to try it, and I guess I'll leave the technique to the pros. Though, I can't imagine that the cost of increased premiums, time off work, etc after a bad accident (you or one of your workers) would be less than the cost of bringing the right equipment to the site. A jigsaw run along a ruler (or not) seems like a much safer (and probably nicer) way to get it done, and it can't be that much slower to make the risk acceptable.

Anyway - interesting thread for sure. It's made me think a lot about the value of shop safety vs production goals.

[Keith Christopher]

T
The stat we don't know, and probably will never know, is how many woodworkers tried cutting freehand on a table saw, and what percentage of them were injured. That number is probably much higher than the number of woodworkers who used a miter gauge and were injured during that period.


I agree and will say this, of all the bad habits (I've been known to be barefoot in the shop a time or two - but not VERY often) freehanding on the TS is certainly something I would NEVER do. I already respect the tool enough without adding to the danger zone.

[Frank Hagan]

I think there is something wrong here...

I will assume that 3710 injuries were done without a push block
and
using a push block accounted for about 2,370 injuries

makes a little mores sense that way



I am pleading the Fifth on the subject of freehanding on the table saw

Its clear in the report that "free hand" means what it means in this thread ... pushing the stock through the blade without either a miter guage or fence to help control it.