OT making various tools

[Steve Kubien]

Rant on...

Am I the only one who gets bothered when folks copy tools that someone else has put time, money and effort into creating or trying to circumvent paying, what is often, a fair price for a tool or part? I think back to the discussions about the Easy Rougher tools and how lots of people started looking for carbide inserts to make their own. Now we've got people making tool holders for hollowing rigs. These companies did a lot of work on their products. shouldn't they be rewarded?

Now I realize that Lyle Jamieson virtually encourages people to make their own support rigs and that is certainly his right. I haven't spoken to them but I can't imagine the Easy Rougher folks would be overjoyed about what happened here amongst some members. At the same time there have been lots of posts where the issue of asian countries stealing designs of products and making them cheaper than they can be done in N. America. Isn't it the same thing though on a different scale? In the first example, you are ripping off the little guy. In the latter, you are ripping a larger, faceless corporation. Does it make a difference?

Another thing, I do not think hiding behind the excuse of "well, they should have patented it" or some other pseudo-legal position is an acceptable position. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Don't let a lawyer tell you which is which.

Ok, Rant off. This is just something that has bothered me for a while. Mods, feel free to ditch this if you see the need.

Steve

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Steve,

Every tool I have I bought. I have Sorby, Larson, Pinnacle,Jamieson, etc. I personally don't have the time or the inclination to make my own. My day job is kinda funny. I might be slow this week and I could be out of town working 80 hours next week. Can't predict.

That being said, every tool known to man has been copied since the first day it was invented and sold. It's a common thing. For some, it's the only way they could afford to have similar tools and perform certain operations.

You really don't think that lathe you bought was designed 100% and built by the manufacturer?

I don't copy CDs or DVDs. I have the capability but don't. There are copyright laws that make that illegal.

Tools.....Lyle Jamieson admits in his DVD .....another turner invented the laser system used for hollowing and when Jamieson saw it and asked the guy the guy told him to use it freely. Point is, I'll bet a lot of those folks including Jamieson wouldn't get too upset that someone was making a copy of their own tool for personal use. Now if you were planning to mass produce it for sale...that would be another matter.

JMHO.

[Richard Madison]

Isn't it the same thing though on a different scale?

It is not the same thing if I make a single tool for my own personal use. Surely you would not deny us use of a tool we can easily make at home, especially for those who can ill afford the "store bought" version.

Often the home made tool will, in fact, be somewhat inferior to the commercially available tool. But it will serve.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

It is not the same thing if I make a single tool for my own personal use. Surely you would not deny us use of a tool we can easily make at home, especially for those who can ill afford the "store bought" version.

Often the home made tool will, in fact, be somewhat inferior to the commercially available tool. But it will serve.

I agree. If you're not making them for resale I don't see a problem. Even the original tool maker probably copied something. You know the old saying, " Nothing new under the sun".

[Nathan Hawkes]

Rant on...

Am I the only one who gets bothered when folks copy tools that someone else has put time, money and effort into creating or trying to circumvent paying, what is often, a fair price for a tool or part? I think back to the discussions about the Easy Rougher tools and how lots of people started looking for carbide inserts to make their own. Now we've got people making tool holders for hollowing rigs. These companies did a lot of work on their products. shouldn't they be rewarded?

Now I realize that Lyle Jamieson virtually encourages people to make their own support rigs and that is certainly his right. I haven't spoken to them but I can't imagine the Easy Rougher folks would be overjoyed about what happened here amongst some members. At the same time there have been lots of posts where the issue of asian countries stealing designs of products and making them cheaper than they can be done in N. America. Isn't it the same thing though on a different scale? In the first example, you are ripping off the little guy. In the latter, you are ripping a larger, faceless corporation. Does it make a difference?

Another thing, I do not think hiding behind the excuse of "well, they should have patented it" or some other pseudo-legal position is an acceptable position. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Don't let a lawyer tell you which is which.

Ok, Rant off. This is just something that has bothered me for a while. Mods, feel free to ditch this if you see the need.

Steve


Well, there have been carbide hollowing tools for sale on ebay for years before the Easy Rougher. Someone puts carbide inserts on a golf club handle and has been selling them for several years. Its not a new idea. Its just a bit better form & finish, with thought put into what kind of carbide cutter, and the right bar, etc. If you want to get right down to it, it is really copying what metal lathe users have had for many many decades--a boring bar. Its just used by hand instead of secured in a tool post setup. I don't know the legal implications of showing someone how to make a copy, but if you're making something for personal use, I don't think you are in copyright infringement unless you're duplicating something like a DVD or CD, which is an obvious NO NO! I don't copy CD's or DVD's, but I do make my own tools from time to time. I don't sell them, and I don't think this is wrong. Personally, after using a carbide insert tool compared to a powdermetal large bowl gouge, I prefer the gouge.


EDIT: This debate seems to keep coming up time and again. People make their own tools. Next thing someone is going to say that Thompson's unhandled tools are infringing on tool handle manufacturers by encouraging people to make tool handles. People have made their own tools to suit their needs based on seeing what works for other people and perhaps modifying them. Sometimes they work as well as the original, sometimes better. The bottom line is that humans are primates--we make tools based on seeing someone else--think chimpanzees and termite mounds.

[Mike Minto]

who was it made the first fork, anyone know? :confused:

[Tim Boger]

Rant on...

Am I the only one who gets bothered when folks copy tools that someone else has put time, money and effort into creating or trying to circumvent paying, what is often, a fair price for a tool or part? I think back to the discussions about the Easy Rougher tools and how lots of people started looking for carbide inserts to make their own. Now we've got people making tool holders for hollowing rigs. These companies did a lot of work on their products. shouldn't they be rewarded?

Now I realize that Lyle Jamieson virtually encourages people to make their own support rigs and that is certainly his right. I haven't spoken to them but I can't imagine the Easy Rougher folks would be overjoyed about what happened here amongst some members. At the same time there have been lots of posts where the issue of asian countries stealing designs of products and making them cheaper than they can be done in N. America. Isn't it the same thing though on a different scale? In the first example, you are ripping off the little guy. In the latter, you are ripping a larger, faceless corporation. Does it make a difference?

Another thing, I do not think hiding behind the excuse of "well, they should have patented it" or some other pseudo-legal position is an acceptable position. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Don't let a lawyer tell you which is which.

Ok, Rant off. This is just something that has bothered me for a while. Mods, feel free to ditch this if you see the need.

Steve

I'll certainly make anything I can based on something I've seen either on line or in person ... that's half the fun here.

Tim

[Steve Kubien]

Thanks for the feedback folks. I do appreciate it. Remember, the first thing I said in my post was "Am I the only one who gets bothered....". The answer appears to be "yes". It is my hang-up. I will bring it up in therapy next week. :)

Cheers,
Steve

[Rob Cunningham]

I don't see anything wrong with making a tool that is commercially available. It's a way to broaden your skills and save money.
I've been a Tool and Die Maker for the past 27 years. Everyone I worked with has made a lot of their own tools (parallels, 1-2-3 blocks, precision grinding vices, etc) All these tools are commercially available, but you would spend a fortune to buy them. There is a certain pride in using tools that you made with your own hands. Nobody is trying to put companies out of business,but if you have the skills to make it yourself, why not do it.

[Ken Glass]

Psst..... anyone know where I can buy a good bootlegged thing-a-ma-bob.

Ingenuity has been a part of man since the beginning of time. Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door. Industrial espionage is a more recent trait that is illegal. In today's society one must always be on top of his/her game. With patents having a short life span, no one is safe from the copy cat. When the idea is not truly yours, a good person admits that, and only makes a copy for himself, and in doing so, will relieve himself of the cost of design, distribution, shipping, insurance and other hidden costs of being in business. Pride comes in many forms. There are no global patent police, so the strong survive and the weak are trimmed from the herd. The choice is always one of conscience.

[Mike Lipke]

I will bring it up in therapy next week. :)

Steve

Now you have hit a nerve. After many years, hundreds of hours spent in therapy, and thousands of dollars spent, my therapist said something last month that brought tears to my eyes:
"No habla Engles, Senor".

[Jim Underwood]

Being a lifelong cheapskate and a maker of things on a shoestring budget (or no budget at all) I'm in hearty disagreement with you. That's not to say I'm hostile to you.

I'd not have many of the tools I have now if it weren't for making stuff... And a whole lot of my fun is making tools for next to nothing. I've got so many projects in the works I could quit my job today, and keep busy for several months just making tools.

And sometimes you look at a tool you've bought, and tell yourself you could make it better by doing this, or that. So you make another better one.

I think of public domain stuff like the Longworth Chuck. Should I buy that from someone else when I have a perfectly good CNC router for use? Nope. I'm gonna make 'em for my own use, and if you want one I'll sell the parts to you. I'm dang sure not doing it for free.

[curtis rosche]

i have emailed with the people who make the easy rougher. i had a couple ideas about making a few new tools, like a hollowing tool, and they told me to make it, and good luck with it and send them pictures. remember, they are still making money on the carbide bits.
also, if no one ever tried making their own tools, we would never have and new or inovated designs for tools, cause no one would have experience making them.

[Scott Conners]

I make (on the lathe) and sell leatherworking tools. I love it when someone makes their own version - I've picked up some great tricks from people who copied my design. And my design certainly isn't original. It's based on someone else's home-made design, which is partially inspired by an older commercial design.

People who make thier own are often someone who wouldn't have bought a commercial tool anyway. I know if I could afford a commercial hollowing rig I'd buy it immediately, but I can't, so I'll make olands and my own easy rougher. I'll buy the insert and replacement inserts from them, however.

It is definitely satisfying to make your own tool, but I often end up with an inferior tool compared to the commercial version.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I am like Ken. I don't have the desire or the time to make tools. I would love to but I also am out of town for a week, two weeks sometimes three weeks at a time with my job. So when I am home I would rather be turning than making tools or jigs for turning. Now on the other hand I would not have a problem making tools for myself for my use only. Now I would have some heart burn if someone started making Jamison rigs for sale to anyone and everyone. I don't see a problem if you are making them for yourself and using them only for your use.

[Gary Conklin]

Almost every tool out there is a copy of another tool. You think Sorby came out with the first bowl gouge, or even Doug Thompson? These guys all took an idea and figured they could make it and profit from it. They may have tweaked it and " made it their own" but it still started out as someone else's design. How many companies sell hollowing rigs, they are almost all basically the same concept, and all based on an existing "idea." Who are we kidding if we think that we don't copy others "ideas" how many of us have seen someone else's turning and said I can do that, tweaked it and did it, some of us even (gasp) profit from these plagiarized pieces. BTW just for the people that have commented on copying DVD/CD's it is not illegal to make a copy for personal use, just illegal to sell or show for profit. In fact once you buy a DVD you own it and can even rent it out, as Smartflix does. I have read turning books from years ago where the author or "inventor" of a tool will describe in detail (as Lyle Jamieson does) the construction of a tool, and have found that MOST woodworkers or any other craftsman/women is all to happy to tell you how to make a tool or teach you the process to replicate a piece. For those on the soap boxes come on down. Your glass house might get hit with a stone. I for one will do anything that I can to make a tool if it will fit a need or save some money.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Conklin,

Do not force me to break out the water hose!:rolleyes:

[Gary Conklin]

Conklin,

Do not force me to break out the water hose!:rolleyes:

Everything was respectful and in line. No finger pointing and no name calling. :p Just speaking my my mind. No worries.

[Dave Schell]

I think anyone in business of offering a product or service is doing it to save those of us who can't or don't want to from having to do it ourselves. Is it unethical for me not to clean my own home since there are those who are doing that as a means of making a living? Am I depriving them of a living by cleaning it myself? :-)

Any person deciding to go into business selling an item or service has to first assess whether customers would pay them for their item or service. If they choose to sell an item that is so easy and obvious for someone to make themselves or do themselves, they have to understand they are going to lose alot of sales to those customers that would choose that path.

The only issue here is if you are personally gaining from selling an item that someone else is making. At that is only illegal if the other person went to the bother and expense of getting a patent to protect himself from others doing that. Sorry that sounds harsh but that is the american way. Competition makes us all stronger.

[Doug Thompson]

This is always a good topic... there is nothing new to any product. The better mouse trap is the reason for most new products. I started making tools because I wasn't willing to spend $90 for a 1/2 inch bowl gouge so it was decided to make my own, everything was fine until one was let out of the Cleveland area. The decision had to be made a couple years ago either to let it go or squash the whole thing but what the heck it would be fun to sell a couple hundred a year... this is turning into a JOB.

Rant on...

What I don't like is how some manufactures charge more for the same product, people are brought up to believe if it costs more it must be better... the only difference is one manufacture is laughing all the way to the bank. It's almost like a pump and dump in the stock market but it goes on here in our world.

Rant off...

If you work you should be able to turn a profit, manufacturing is not fun nor is giving up your free time. Anyone here can manufacture a product just come up with the better mouse trap then do it.

[Doug Thompson]

Competition makes us all stronger.

Competition is good for everyone because it keeps the price down.

[Dahl Troy Perry]

Though I would give my 2 cents worth if you turn a pen aren't taking sales away from BIC Pen Co.:rolleyes: and there are bowl makers that could say you are you are copying ther bowl patterns why turn a bowl when you can buy one that is mass made in a factory? :eek:Just a thought by the way I make as many tools as I can after all Iv'e been a toolmaker for 35 years for a living.

[Richard Bell CA]

I agree with the OP in cases where someone takes a product, reverse engineers it , and then starts to mass produce it for sale. This is wrong. However, I must respectfully disagree with the position that there is something wrong with making a tool for your own use.

I also agree with the overall consensus of the responses, and I won't bother to repeat them. However, there is one additonal consideration that I find significant. How many times have you purchased or considered purchasing a tool and then thought " this tool is good, but it would better suit my needs if it had....". To me, this is the real advantage to making your own tools. Combining selected features of various commercial tools, perhaps with a few of your own modifications, can result in something that works much better for you. The nerdy engineer in me finds this appealing, and I get as much satisfaction out of fabricating the tools as I do out of using them (I know, blasphemy on a woodworking forum). I suspect this is how many of the small companies offering a specific product got started.

The purpose of this forum is to provide an exchange of ideas and viewpoints to enhance the abilities and knowledge of the participants. I have gained a great deal by reading the various posts, including this thread. My purpose in posting tools I have fabricated is to hopefully give something useful back to the group. I do feel it is important to give credit where credit is due, so I have tried to reference a manufacturer's product if it was the source of the original idea, and will continue to do so.

Richard

[Brian Weaver]

Just to put my own spin on this topic. :D Before I started hiding in my shop, I spent about 10 years hiding in my basement playing with computers. There are several other operating systems besides Microsofts that are free, free in a sense that everyone can have access to the code and change it the way they see fit. The thought being that there are people out there that can make the code better. In another thread on this forum someone thought they had come up with a brand new idea, someone else stated that it had been done before. Thing is the person that thought they had the new idea may have made a change that made it better than it was before, with out this there will be no advancement in the craft.

My 2 cents.

[Jeff Nicol]

AMERICAN FREEDOM!


Hard work and the american spirit is why
we drive on and do what we can to do
ourselves! The choice is always your own!

Be proud of your accomplishments and the desire to
build and use what came from your own hands!


Jeff

[Colin Wollerman]

Jeez, I was pretty proud of my knock off vari-grind...until now:rolleyes:

Plagiarism, they say, is the finest form of flattery. Don't worry, If ya cross the line you will get a call from someones lawyer.

Seriously though, I do see where you are coming from. But honestly, I don't think any tool maker expects to not be copied to some degree.
In my situation it was make it or go without.
C

[Jim Underwood]

I think that the world is full of examples of amateurs who began tinkering on something in their garage, and develop new or improved products. If it were all left up to "The Professionals" then the world would be a much poorer place.

Here's to humble ingenuity.:)

[Curt Fuller]

I think it's interesting that anyone would think they can make a tool cheaper than they can buy it. I've bought one of Doug Thompson's gouges and I love it. But if you were to walk into his shop and take a look at all the equipment he uses to convert a steel bar to a spindle gouge I think you would realize that buying a gouge from him is a pretty good deal. Same with Jamison's or Privet's hollowing setups. I guess if you already have all the welders, torches, benders, machining tools, etc sitting in the shop to get the job done you can make your own. But if you work the cost backwards through all that equipment, that's a pretty spendy hollower if you're just making one for yourself. I'm all for making my own stuff when I can and I agree with the guy that said he gets great satisfaction from using a tool he made himself. But as for being cheaper, I think with the exception of some simple, spur of the moment needed tools, most tools would be cheaper to buy than build if you really figured in all of the costs, just not as fun as building yourself.
As for Steve K's original question though, right or wrong, America would have come to screeching halt a long time ago if we didn't believe in the two previously stated concepts..."nothing new under the sun" and "build a better mousetrap".

[Bruce McElhaney]

This has come up before -- People claiming others are stealing ideas techniques or styles. I can't imagine where the state of woodturning would be if no one shared ideas and learned from each other or borrowed ideas and modified them to suit their individual purposes.

Who can claim exclusive rights to any tool or technique? So who invented the first boring bar? The first lathe? The first wheel? And what about original woodturning art? Most so called, original woodturning art, ideas and techniques are merely copies or modifications, built on what has gone before. Woodturning is constantly evolving. Ideas are continually being borrowed and reshuffled and modified. Original Art, or exclusive tools or techniques, ideas are all subjective.

Unfortunately there are always people who want to claim some type of exclusivity and hoard borrowed or modified ideas for themselves. I'm not saying credit shouldn't be recognised and giving for innovations when due. However, in the finally analysis, it is the marketplace that will decide who has the best ideas or implements an older or borrowed idea to best advantage.

[Richard Bell CA]

Curt:

If you took a hard accounting of the cost of material, equipment and labor, I would agree completely that it would be cheaper to simply buy all of your tools. However, if you apply the same logic to woodworking, most people (including myself) cannot justify the cost of their equipment and time based soley on the dollar value of their output. I would also guess that there are more than a few people on this forum who have dined on $100/pound fish or venison, once you factor in all of the associated costs of that last fishing or hunting trip. Most of us would agree that the main driver in all of these activities is the personal satisfaction, which is something you can't necessarily put a dollar amount on. A great example of this is Gary Conklin's recent hollowing rig post, which combined with other posts including my own, was probably a driver for this thread. Here is a group of people getting together and pooling their resources and talents to produce something useful. My own take based on Gary's pictures was that the successful gathering and collaberation was the real product, and the hollowing rig was just a bonus.

However, I believe the concept of "cheaper" is not necessarily one size fits all. If you are short on free time and don't have the equipment or interest, then it is definitely cheaper to buy. If you already have equipment and materials and/or are in the "more time than money" crowd, then it can be cheaper to build, particularly if you want something different than the commercial offerings. Many of us go through the same make or buy decisions, but simply reach different conclusions based on our personal perspective.

I think we are basically in agreement, we just differ slightly in our definition of cheaper.

Richard

[Doug Thompson]

I agree with the OP in cases where someone takes a product, reverse engineers it , and then starts to mass produce it for sale. This is wrong.

Richard

Why spend money for R&D just buy it then manufacture the same product. Best Wood Tools has some really nice tool rests but some company bought the entire set... now this company sells the same rest... matter of fact the entire set. The company is across the ocean and the biggest on the planet... it didn't stop them.

[neil mackay]

Well, I not only make most of my own tools also build my own lathes as well, and I am not sure here that leaves me at the moment. :confused:

Having spent many years running a R&D machine shop. Innovation and change are second nature to me.I often take ideas or part thereof and see what improvements can be had and build my own

As for the Easy Rougher it would be one of the simplest tools to copy and so we see people doing so rightly or wrong.Its often about saving a buck and or the satisfaction of making your own.

As wood turners we make bowls,candle sticks, duck calls and you name it we have a go at it. We make our own lathe stands, tool-rests, vac chucks and as much of the accessories as we can. We are by nature 'makers of things' It comes with the territory so to speak.

Any manufacturer out there who believes other wise is most likely having himself on.Patents don't protect much when it all comes down to it.
But good marketing and pricing will always be a major challenge for all imitators to over come Thompson tools is a good example they are well marketed and well priced. I buy them, he just so good at what he does. Although I could make my own and pretty well copy his methods etc it ain't worth the effort. :)

[Mark Hubl]

There really often isn't "one" of anything. In the history of man when there was "one" it quickly became "one plus something". This is true of everything, not just tools. Innovation is great, but when somebody decides to manufacture something, if there is something inherently unique then patent laws are in place for protection. For sure, I don't like the idea of somebody ripping somebody off. Often being in business is not about the uniqueness of the item or service, it is about many other elements of a value proposition. (build quality, quantity, availability, service, etc.)

I make tools for the fun of it. I buy a heck of a lot more of them. If something is easy enough for me to make in my shop and somebody is selling it, they better be paying attention to the other elements of the value proposition, 'cause I ain't no super builder.

I am glad somebody copied arrowheads and hatchets or we may not be here.:D

[Gary Conklin]

As ya'll know I just make a Jamieson style hollowing rig, well I didn't make the laser yet. I wrote a quick email to Lyle today to inquire about just purchasing the "attach" points to his laser system. Lyle himself called me back, and after some talking I realized it might not be prudent for me to go this route. It was at about this time that Lyle started to tell me that it is possible to make the attach points myself...not only that, but even gave some insights on how to do so. I thought this was great, he like many others stated " I don't want to spend my time making jigs, I'd rather be turning." It was a great. Just thought I'd share and add this here.