Shapers?!

[David Colafranceschi]

Just looking at adding one to the shop. Has anyone have any likes or dislikes about the powermatic 27(s) or the heavy duty Delta?

[J.R. Rutter]

I've owned some Powermatics (26 and 27), but don't have any experience with the Deltas. These are "heavy duty" compared only to the models below them in their respective line-ups. You can run 1-1/4" spindles as well as the smaller sizes. Bearings are pretty straightforward to service. The Delta has a nicer fence system, I think.

If everything is in balance and tuned up, they should both do anything that you need them to. But because they are relatively lightweight compared to their bigger siblings, they rely on everything being right on to run vibration free. Motor and spindle sheaves need to be dead on, belts in good condition, cutters balanced, etc. I just read a story from someone who had chatter marks with his Delta and was trying to trouble shoot it. He replaced a bunch of drive train components and the spindle, but finally had to get a full replacement to get back to smooth running. I had similar issues with my Powermatics. If you buy from a dealer who will stand behind them, either one should be a fine machine. It seems to be the luck of the draw to a certain extent.

[Mike Cruz]

Don't get one with a cast iron top...get one with an MDF top. The MDF tops are apparently much better and won't warp! :D Sorry, had to spill over from another thread eventually. There got it out of the way.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread...

[David DeCristoforo]

With shapers, "bigger is better". More mass, bigger spindles, more power. The fact that a machine allows you to run a 1.25" spindle is not the whole story. My "contribution" to this thread:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=113170&highlight=Felder

contains links to some pictures of the spindle configuration for several different shapers. The pictures speak for themselves.

Search the forum for "shapers". There have been a lot of "in depth" discussions.

[Mike Heidrick]

For the price of a new PM27 or New Delta you can buy a used SCMI shaper. I would be looking for a used European model. A New Felder will cost big bucks but is a dream machine (just buy the 700 series saw shaper and be done). I just bought a new Laguna T1002S and am in love with it. It is a heavyweight slider tilting shaper without the precision measurement built in (but does have a 5hp Baldor Industrial Reliance motor though - not many of those on a Felder!). A SCMI or Felder will get you the measurement indexing out of the gate. I will add it to mine some way!

Here is a picture of my T1002S with a Delta shaper in the background.

Take 4 Delta shapers - arrange them 2X2 - that is the size of the T1002S. The feeder mounted is a 1hp feeder and the head mounted is over 6" diameter for size reference.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/t1002s6.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/IMG_3388.jpg

[J.R. Rutter]

For the price of a new PM27 or New Delta you can buy a used SCMI shaper.

There are a lot of them out there right now. If you have the room, and can handle phase conversion, they are hard to beat.

There are a ton of shops out there with lighter PM, Delta, Grizzly, etc. shapers turning out good work. But the trade off is time spent sanding, fiddling, etc. to overcome the idiosyncrasies and compromises needed to build these machines.

I had some lighter MiniMax T40Ns that did a good job and actually had a smaller footprint than the typical generic shaper. These are out there used as well.

[Peter Quinn]

I work with a half dozen PM27's every day, and at this point I wouldn't buy one if it was free. Like JR said, they are fidgety and sometimes cranky beasts that leave you sanding and hoping. They seem to interject chatter when you least expect it. And as far as fences go, theirs is not the best, but its not the worst either. They are serviceable, they get the job done, I always see them for sale used for more than I feel they are worth, go figure?

I own a Delta HD shaper, not a bad little machine. I bought it used for cheap, added the X-5 fence, which works great. I like to run things at the upper end of its capacity which can get a little chattery, and I have tuned it to the best of my ability. Depending on your needs a Delta can be a great tool or not quite enough. It sure is easier to set up than ANY PM27 I have used in terms of fence adjustment and spindle height.

I recently bought a MMT40 for cheap used. I haven't fired it up in my shop yet as its three phase and I have been too busy this summer to set up the three phase conversion yet. But I fired it up where I bough it, it beats the PM27's in almost every way, and it was cheap! (I am talking about PM27's, NOT PM2700's for clarity).

There are a lot of older Euro shapers for sale presently cheap, and if you can support phase conversion those might be a good deal. Price the phase converter FIRST, as they get expensive quick for 7HP and up. I use a few very old PM labeled SAC shapers at work, those 9HP beasts with a spindle built like a semi axel. They are such smooth and powerful machine in terms of function, but they leave a bit to be desired in terms of finesse of adjustments. So if you go the older used route, keep in mind it can often take a bit of "English" to get these things set accurately.

[David Colafranceschi]

Thanks for the input guys. I think I may stay away from a PM and perhaps look for something used.

[Philip Johnson]

Dave you may take a look at the newer pm 2700, I really like mine but I use it in a home shop and not commercially. It has a really nice fence, great dust collection, digital read out for cutter height and a larger table then most shapers an very easy to move around with the built in wheels if that is important to you .

Phil

[Jeff Duncan]

A lot of good advice here so far, but of course what really counts is what your going to do with it. SCM's and the like are great machines and I have one on my short list, but if this is your first shaper maybe a bit on the big side??? I have a 27 I bought new and had a Delta before that. The Delta aluminum fence is hands down far and away the better fence. But the Powermatic has the bigger spindle and bearings, and a better motor. I agree though that if you push it, like running full depth cuts for hard maple interior doors, you'll get some chatter.
For a first shaper I'd recommend the Powermatic any day over the Delta, just my opinion from personal experience. If you know you'll be doing a lot of shaping, especially on bigger parts, and you have the room and power to run one of the big boys then by all means go for it.
good luck,
JeffD

[Chip Lindley]

In defense of Powermatics, I own a 5hp Model 26. I bought it at auction for $125 so I can't gripe in any respect. The issue with 26 & 27s is their small-dia. top bearing. Heavy use or unbalanced cutters cause the cartridge housing to wallow out prematurely, causing chatter and even more vibration. The bearings are cheap and easily accessible to replace, securing with gap-filling TiteLoc.

A home shop may only replace bearings once or twice, but a commercial operation will only get consistent results by scheduled rebuilding at a max. number of hours.
My 26's top bearing needed shimming because of severe wear to the cartridge. Small price to pay for a 5hp Baldor and solid 1" spindle that now runs smooth as silk!

[Chip Lindley]

But, maybe Sears makes one of particle board. OR some *GREEN* company uses 3rd world renewable bamboo for their shaper tables!