Expensive planes

[jim hedgpeth]

Just out of curiosity I was looking up some "High end " planes. I have no desire to own one, but they are perty;). That is after I pick myself up off the floor to look at them, the $$$$ is ... WOW.:eek:

http://www.sauerandsteiner.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=1007

So I was wondering if anyone here actually has any of these ( or other) extremely expensive beauties? I would be scared to pick one up, let alone use it.

Jim

[James Baker SD]

Google Karl Holtey if you want to see some really high $$$$$$$$$$

James

[David Christopher]

Jim, I have a "HIGH END" stanley handyman....I will sell it for just a little less than the one that you are talking about

[Richard Magbanua]

I view these planes as amazing works of art in sculpture. I feel they are a tribute to the tradition of woodworking and what we are capable of. The cool thing is you can use this very expensive work of art to create another work of art if you wish. Try using a Jackson Pollock painting for pallet :eek: I guess if you look at them from that point of view, 5 grand ain't too bad!

[Jacob Reverb]

Personally, I just don't see the attraction, just as I don't see the attraction to $$$$$$$ shotguns with heavy engraving and gold inlays and super-fancy stocks.

It doesn't make them shoot any better...does a $5000 jack plane make wood flatter than a Record #5 that you get off ebay?

The other thing is, when a tool costs that much $$$$, I'd be afraid to use it for its intended purpose.

What if a $20,000 gun got muddy? :eek: What if it got a scratch? :eek::eek::eek:

What if I dropped a $5000 plane onto the concrete slab?

I like tools for their intended purpose: Doing work. If I want a piece of artwork to hang on a wall or put onto a shelf, it prolly won't be a tool.

To each their own...

[george wilson]

It takes me quite a few hours to make those type of planes. Most of the work I do on them is hand work,like filing the dovetails,sculpting the infill,etc.. I would spend a few months on a nice one,or maybe more.

Unfortunately,I only have a few pictures of the planes I used to make. Never could get into photography.

[Brent Smith]

Hi Jim,

I have one of Konrad's planes. It is a thing of beauty, and yes it does work better than any other plane I have. Whether it is that much better really doesn't matter. The way I see it, once you get up into tools in that price range, you aren't going to get equal dollar value with LN, Veritas or other class acts. What you do get is the joy of using something that just glides over (through?) the toughest and most ornery grain you can imagine, and something that just feels reeeeaaaaly good in the hand!

[Derek Cohen]

If you owed a Ferrarri, would you drive it to work?

If you owned a BMW, would you drive it to work?

If you owned a <insert name here>, would you drive it to work?

It is all perspective.

I would assume that most of us started woodworking because we needed to save pennies. I know I did. Along the way it became something I love to do, but when I started out building and setting up a home I could not afford more than (if lucky) a flea market find.

It is also all about priorities.

If you can afford anything you want, then you do not need to prioritise. The rest of us make choices. Do I get the Porsche and use Stanley tools or a BMW to match my LNs? :)

You can make your own. I do. It is affordable financially for most, but only you can say whether it fits in with your time frame. Personal time costs nothing but time.

It is not about whether "high end" tools work better. Generally they do. It is, as Richard noted, that they are works of art that create other works of art. For me, woodworking is as much a creative outlet as it is constructing needed items for home or gifts for others. I do not see a distinction between "high end" and "other" tools. They are all just tools.

Some tools bring more pleasure than others - this may be to their beauty or it may be their associations. Cost is only one factor in prizing a tool. I have many tools that were given to me, and these have a value that transcends looks.

Spier restoration (user) ...
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Restoration/spier2.jpg

Independence Tools dovetail saw - bought new (user) ...
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/IndependenceToolssaw.jpg

Colen Clenton (and other) marking tools (users) ...
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Workshoprebuild-squares1.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Billy Chambless]

If you owed a Ferrarri, would you drive it to work?

If you owned a BMW, would you drive it to work?




Only after Q had installed the missile launchers and smokescreen device. ;)

[Brian Kent]

I just took a look at some ads and found out that you can pay $18,000 or $51,000 for a Ford 150 truck - brand new (and anything in between).

[jim hedgpeth]

HECK NO I WOULDN'T DRIVE IT!!!!!!:eek:

I'd sell it to buy more tools and lumber.:D

Jim

[David Keller NC]

Just out of curiosity I was looking up some "High end " planes. I have no desire to own one, but they are perty;). That is after I pick myself up off the floor to look at them, the $$$$ is ... WOW.:eek:

http://www.sauerandsteiner.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=1007

So I was wondering if anyone here actually has any of these ( or other) extremely expensive beauties? I would be scared to pick one up, let alone use it.

Jim

Yes, I have three of them - an un-handled smoother that looks like an antique Spiers, one that's a close copy of a Norris A6, and a close copy of a Norris A1, 13" long.

None of them cost as much as the one you linked to - that one's an infill jointer, and is quite a large plane (with lots and lots of steel/brass dovetails to peen and lap).

Regarding the cost, Konrad is offering a very good deal for what it is - an infill jointer that's perfect. A Norris A1 infill jointer in "fine" condtion that length (22-1/2") is about $7k - $9k at the David Stanley auctions in the UK. The much longer and much rarer Norris A1s sell for about $22k (the most recent one was an A1, 28" long).

Regarding how they work - yes, they do work considerably better in my hands than the L-Ns and tuned-up Stanleys that I have, though the difference is only apparent in really hard, figured woods. If you're mostly planing plain-figured south american mahogany, beech, and poplar, you will likely never notice a difference. In tiger maple, the difference is extreme - the much heavier Sauer & Stiener A6 holds considerably more momentum through the planing stroke, and while the blade pitch will have more of an effect on reducing tear-out than anything else, the 3 thousandths of an inch mouth on my S&S A6 produces very little tear-out in this wood. Setting my L-N or Stanleys to this sort of mouth opening is very nearly impossible - there's too much backlash in the adjustment to get the mouth down to this dimension.

Of course, my perspective is a bit different than a lot of folks on woodworking 'net forums - I do not consider a Lie Nielsen or a Lee Valley to be a high-end plane or at all pricey - they are very, very inexpensive for what they are.

[Pam Niedermayer]

And this is what's called trickle down economics. Very well-off people can support some very good toolmakers who otherwise couldn't compete (on price) in the tool market. Even those not so well-off can sometimes get a few thousand together once in a while for a special purchase when s/he feels well-off.

Pam

[Gary Herrmann]

If I could justify the $ I'd spend on a Sauer or Holtey plane - even to myself, much less SWMBO, I'd buy one. Maybe I will some day. Until then, the LVs will do just fine.

[David Keller NC]

Another aspect to this is perception of value. An average quality cabinet table saw costs about $2k with outfeed tables, Bismeyer fence, and a 3 HP 220V motor (at least if purchased new). A really nice one with some added features like an over-arm dust collection/blade guard and mobile base can run the bill up to about $2500, and an innovative one like the Sawstop rings up at about $3200.

99% of woodworkers of middle-class, but modest, means consider this expenditure to be justifiable, and most that start off with a contractor's saw dream of an upgrade.

Yet many of those same woodworkers consider L-N and LV planes to be "high-end" and a "luxury".

However, I consider a smoothing plane to be every bit as essential, and useful, as a cabinet table saw. Though I'm also of very modest means, it was still worth buying a cheaper car so I could afford a few of Konrad's products.

[george wilson]

David,I make this sort of tools because I can't afford to buy them,really!!! I cannot pay the cost of a metal lathe,a good one,for a plane. I sell my things to wealthy collectors.

[Raney Nelson]

Konrad's planes will also hold their value much much better than any new power tool - and are almost certain to eventually go up in value. No power tool does that. power tools depreciate like new cars. It certainly takes a lot of the sting out of such a purchase...

Part of the issue that pops up with these discussions is that there's a broad range of buyers for handtools. There are those who buy a tool exclusively to do a job, and have no more sentimentlity for the tools than they do for a fork. Then there are collectors whose net worth is largely wrapped up in handtools that will never see a piece of wood while they own it. Both are perfectly valid approaches - and it's a mistake to think that everyone who owns these tools is primarily concerned with what they can do. It's just not always the case.

I think most of us actually fall somewhere in between. Personally, I use every tool I own (if it doesn't get used, I sell it). But I also own many tools that are nicer, and probably somewhat more expensive that what is strictly necessary for the technical work. I greatly enjoy these things - it makes woodworking even more pleasurable to have such objects of beauty in my hands. And, for me anyway, there is a degree to which the perfection of the tools does inspire me to strive for better work. I like the connection to the remarkable craftsmen (and women) who made these things.

If I ever won the lottery, one (or several) of Konrad's planes would be one of my first purchases. Until then, though, I have to make my own if I want truly high-end tools like that. I'm really glad that someone can afford their work - it keeps the high-end handtool makers in business, and in the long run that improves the handtool market from top to bottom. The tools available today, across the price spectrum, are of a quality and breadth that I don't think has been seen in at least 50 years - maybe a century or two. I'm just glad there is a market to support it.

Besides - we all need something to dream about.

[george wilson]

I use all of my tools,too. Most of the tools I make go to collectors,and may not get used. That is not all bad,though,because they will at least be preserved for the future.

I have a Norris jack plane that I think was never used. It probably was in some collection. Now,I have it and can use it,whereas it might have been worn out or broken ages ago in a shop. I may use it,but I won't abuse it.

[Jim Koepke]

I find it doubtful a collector would buy a tool that did not perform well enough that a woodworker wouldn't want it.

The highest end tool ever to be in my hands was a Bridge City Shoulder Plane. It was amazing and if I had the money, one of them would be mine. Since the price is currently out of reach, I make do with a Stanley Shoulder Plane. Not a great tool, but it does what is needed.

The only likely way for me to get a super fine plane in my hands is to build my own. Maybe when I get a bit better at woodworking, I will attempt such.

Recently ~$22 came out of my pocket for a #7 joiner, I am not sure that the same size plane with the Norris brand would be worth 300-1000 times the amount as far as the ability to smooth wood is concerned. But if someone were to give me one, I sure would give it a go.

If the high end planes didn't have some ability beyond an old tuned Stanley, then it is doubtful "collectors" would care much about owning one.

jim

[Frank Drew]

Personally, I just don't see the attraction, ...does a $5000 jack plane make wood flatter than a Record #5 that you get off ebay? If you mean to ask if one of these planes would do a better job (with difficult grain, etc.) then the answer is almost certainly yes, and I love my Record 05, but I've also got a Speirs panel plane and there's really no comparison. Nor with a couple of Japanese planes I have which can almost plane granite if they're tuned right. There is such a thing as better.


The other thing is, when a tool costs that much $$$$, I'd be afraid to use it for its intended purpose.
What if I dropped a $5000 plane onto the concrete slab?Don't drop it; use it, but be careful with it. It would be, IMO, dumb not to use it, although I know a lot of tool collections stay on the shelf.


I like tools for their intended purpose: Doing work.
Me, too, and I can't afford one of these very pricey planes either but let's not begrudge the makers, who are, as Pam rightly notes, "very good toolmakers", currently a vanishing breed. As are custom woodworkers (meaning lots of folks here); plenty of people would think it insane to buy a custom-made piece of furniture.

I'm glad some people are supporting this kind of workmanship. Of course buying a hand made plane like this would be an extravagance, but it also represents an appreciation of metalworking at a very high level.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Collectors, by giving an item value ensure their preservation.
Users, by using the tools give them context.

THere is room for everyone

[Brian Ashton]

Konrad's planes will also hold their value much much better than any new power tool - and are almost certain to eventually go up in value. No power tool does that. power tools depreciate like new cars. It certainly takes a lot of the sting out of such a purchase.


I wouldn't be surprised to see the price of tools locked up in collections and so forth actually drop to be honest. The crazed and almost desperate desire for hand tools is quite new. I think it's fuelled by cashed up baby boomers that are reliving memories of their childhoods and the mystique of what their fathers had that were such a fascination to them when they were young. Such past memories and desires are hardwired into our brains and are very hard to resist wanting to revisit them. Coupled with the fact that woodworking as a recreation is all the fad right now - that too will fade also in the next few decades helping to bring the prices down. At least that's my theory on such habits as collecting.

The next generation(s) won't have that same primal connection to such things, let alone the desire to use them, and will most likely off load the stuff to make a quick buck when their parents start dying off. But the market will be shrinking and therefore the prices will drop.

My guess is the market will peak in about 15 years. Mobile phones and such will be what they horde when the next generations start reaching the years when they spend alot of time reflecting on their childhoods. Usually starts kicking in at about 40 when it dawns on them that they're actually getting old :D.

[David Keller NC]

"I wouldn't be surprised to see the price of tools locked up in collections and so forth actually drop to be honest. The crazed and almost desperate desire for hand tools is quite new."

While true from the standpoint of users, this is not really true for collectors. Most collectors buy high-end tools for an appreciation of them as "tools as art", and that's not a recent phenomena, at least not last-ten-years recent.

And it's unlikely the market for any collectible item will go down in the foreseeable future if they're antiques. "New" collectables are a different story - beanie babies are a good example. One of the reasons for the dramatic rise in the price of almost all antiques is that, regardless of small fluctuations in interest, the population growth as a whole shows no sign of slowing down. So even if the relative interest as a normalized measure goes down, the absolute interest continues to ramp up.

I would not recommend any physical object to someone purely as an investment instrument, but it is very unlikely that one would take a bath in just about anything over the long haul - whether it be 18th century violins or old tools.