which lathe to get for turning long poles

[Virgil Johnson]

I have an order for a torii gate and need to have good round poles 7-8" in diameter and 8 -10 feet long or longer.
Good stock seems not to be available so I will make my own.

Looking at some of the grizzly machines at the moment.

The issue is the length - getting the tailstock mounted to an extended bed - and power.

Or should I just make my own specialized turning machine?

Virgil

[Mike Henderson]

Unless you just want a new lathe, it might be cheaper to contract out the poles to someone who has a long lathe.

Mike

[Virgil Johnson]

Need a new lathe really. Sold my big Conover some years ago and regretted it.

Besides. Who could leave this challenge pass by? chuckle

Virgil

[Richard Bell CA]

Virgil:

Take a look at this - a few ideas here.

http://docs.google.com/View?docid=d4b7vjd_2c4z7d5

Good luck

Richard

[Jeff Willard]

Need a new lathe really. Sold my big Conover some years ago and regretted it.


Yep. That would be the machine to have right now. I understand though, that Oneway will make custom beds, of any length, provided of course...$$$ :eek:.

[george wilson]

Hold the mustard!! You need an old patternmaker's lathe. They have a carriage similar to a metal lathe,some with power feed,so cylinder turning is easy and accurate. they can be very large,and very heavily built.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Lathes used to have their beds made from wood. You could find some LVL to make the ways (bed) from. If you have welding skills, beds could be made from two pieces of 6" channel steel. Then you could figure out a drive system, along with tail piece. Use a "box, with a router riding on it to do actual cutting.

[Frank Drew]

You don't need one continuous long bed to turn long stuff; you can find spare beds with legs for some medium priced lathes (like delta/rockwell) and you just park it in line at whatever distance that puts your tailstock where you want it to be, without too much of a gap between the beds that you can't turn the whole post. You could even fab up a stand out of angle iron and whatnot that would mount the tailstock firmly enough to do the job.

For just this one job, though, the path of least resistance might be to find a long lathe somewhere and possibly rent some time on it if you want to do the turning yourself; maybe a place that makes porch posts, or a shop that has a patternmaker's lathe, as George suggests.

[John Schreiber]

I've thought about something similar. For most of the stock reduction, I don't think you want a lathe as such. You just want a way to hold the stock between centers, then spin the work by hand and use a router to do the stock removal.

After you've got the pillar down to close to the final size, then you could use lathe chisels etc, but since you've done most of the work with the router, your power requirements are way down.

[John Gornall]

Nova 1624 or DVR - the bed is 2 pieces. Unbolt the piece with the tailstock and bolt it down on your workebench and move the piece with the headstock down the other end of the shop. Do a little aligning and away you go. Tool rest will also be a bit of an issue but not a big deal.

Bill Grumbine had pictures of turning a sailboat mast using 2 lathes on his website.

[russell lusthaus]

Although not a solution to your lathe issue, possibly you could glue up blanks in the manner used to make hollow masts and columns. You router a birdsmouth notch lengthwise on blanks and glue them together (8, 12, or 16 sided). Special bits for this notch. Also seen it done with two passes per piece on the table saw. From there, you would knock the corners with a block plane and spoke shave. Plug the open ends. Just a thought.

[Gary Herrmann]

Do the poles have to be one continuous non-joined piece? If not, just use a standard length lathe. On my 3520b, I think the max distance between centers is 34.5". Turn the 8" diameter spindle with say a 2-3" diameter tenon. I'm not sure how strong the pole has to be, but lets say the tenon is 4" long.

Turn the next spindle length with a matching mortise (a little deeper than the tenon is long to give the glue somewhere to go) and a tenon on the other end. Measure out how many sections you need and then glue them up. If you make a template or use calipers, the outside diameters will match up very closely and could still be hand sanded flush if needed.

If you don't think your hollowing skills are up to it, you could use a forstner bit for the mortises.

That's how I would do it, fwiw.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

This ought to do the trick.

[Virgil Johnson]

I had decided that I would use a router to rough out the long blank.

I thought of joining short lengths together but I am afraid the joints would telegraph thorugh the paint - and since a torii gate is very decorative that would be a disaster.

I could join staves and hand work it and get away with that.
Quality hand working a torii gate would be very acceptable - since that how they probably were made originally.

But the key is that I want a new lathe!

Just looking for something to justify another 800 pounds of metal in my shop.

Thanks to all.

Virgil

[Joshua Dinerstein]

My Powermatic 3520b can have a an entire second bed attached to it. Gives you a long long lathe bed. I ran into a guy who was here in Utah that had done it. He was trying to sell it as he was closing is milling business and moving to CO at that time.

He liked the approach. It made it heavy but for something that big that can be a good thing. I remember looking one and they were about $800 at the time for the 5' bed "extension", read second body and leg(s).

Could be worth it. I was going to mention the Conover lathe but as you said you sold one you already know about them.

Good luck,
Joshua

[John Schreiber]

. . .Just looking for something to justify another 800 pounds of metal in my shop. . . .
The real story finally comes out.:D:D:D

[Jeff Willard]

I was going to mention the Conover lathe but as you said you sold one you already know about them.


This is precisely why I'll keep my Conover, no matter what. If it gets in the way. I can always fold it up and tuck it away in a corner.

[Matt Hutchinson]

What kind of budget are you on? I have to say that I think you may have to do the "split lathe" setup for a long post like that, unless you make a bed extension. So unless you are prepared to go whole hog for a massive patternmaker's lathe, I would say look at the PM 3520B. That one, or their big model, are great machines for the price. Otherwise you may be looking at up to $10,000 for a used patternmaker's lathe with 8' to 10' inboard capacity.

Hutch

P.S. Shop space is also critical. My patternmaker's lathe is 10 feet long, yet it can only turn 6.5 feet between centers.

P.P.S. Wish I had a Conover....

[Scott Conners]

I know the Nova (1624 & DVR) can accept an unlimited amount of bed extensions, I think the PM and Jet are similar. The Nova adds 20" for $220. You'd need 5 to turn 10' long poles.

The idea of a single bed extension attached to a bench or stand seems like a good solution for a project like this, just move the lathe or bench to adjust gross length and then fine tune as normal.

What's your budget? My first thought would be a PM 3520 or Jet 1642 or similar. I'd suggest a lathe with electronically variable speed (EVS), as it will let you slow down to near zero for using a router sled.

[curtis rosche]

i know of a large lathe that would do your turning without a though. if you are willing to take a road trip to california. ....... the "Beast" as it has been named.

[Dave Bureau]

I know where there is a pattern makers lathe. I saw it today. its 10' long. The guy wants $2000. for it with a vfd.I would own it if i had the room. Its in NH.
The Lathe is made in Worchester in 1885 by Witherby, Rugg, and Richardson. It has 20 inch over the bed, so 40” swing. It goes 10’6” between centers. It comes with the toolings, and tool post as well as two tool rests, and a sorby bearing center, with a steb center spur drive, and a number of other spur dives. Also the VFD drive which can be set up on the main belt shaft, to really increase the range of the speeds. It is a precursor to babbit bearings, so they would have to understand those, there is no babbit, it is straight steel on steel. It has been this way for 124 years, so I guess it works

[Narayan Nayar]

I think you'll need another extension, but here you go:

http://www.teknatool.com/Gallery/Images/Alan_Steele/IMGP4611.JPG

(From Teknatool's website--sorry the image is so large)

[Brian Weick]

What you will find ( even if you had a lathe large enough for this) the vibration will destroy the stock as you move down shaping it on the lathe . This would have to be done using 3 steady rests (manually) 1 of the wheels being removed on all 3 - (if using a pattern lathe w/carriage), and there are no guarantees with either of these methods. Automatic lathes with a hydraulic circular cutter head are designed to create this type of narrow but long work.
What you may want to consider is a shaper. set up properly using a 7/8" convex shaper bit you run it through twice and you have your 7/8" dowel it would be termed ~ as far as getting ornate on it using a lathe~ you must use the steady rests and complete that part by hand.
something to contemplate,,,,,
Brian

[Paul Atkins]

Brian, I think the turnings would be 7" to 8" not 7/8". Quite a difference.

[Brian Weick]

sorry~ I misread the thread~ thanks Paul.
Brian

[Dave Bureau]

photos of the patternmakers lathe

[Virgil Johnson]

Just a quick reply for the moment.
I have working long hours and just too tired to get my thoughts together.

But I have been presented with great information and I want to thank everyone.

And I have more thoughts I will post in the next day or so.

This thread has answered so many questions for me.

Virgil

[curtis rosche]

i have a line on an old oliver pattern makers lathe if you want it. its in ohio, and the guy want 2500$ for it.

[Brian Weick]

Matthiew~ how are you!
So what happened with you lathe dream???????
Mr.20C

[Virgil Johnson]

I considered the pattern lathes but the 3 ph kind of stops me.
Not sure about a converter and how well it works and how much it costs.

I am considering a powermatic with an extension bed or perhaps a Oneway.

Do I really need a continious bed?

Why not anchor the tail stock at the distance I need?

And can I get away with using a router sled and sander rather than chisels for this project.
There would be no need for a tool rest.

Thhis is not fine art work - for this kind of pole. Just something round and smooth and paintable.

I know there are problems of stability and alignment and dust.

Virgil

[Dave Bureau]

the pattern lathe i told you about comes with a vfd so the 3ph is not an issue.

[John Beaver]

I would look at the Nova DVR with multiple bet extensions. It's supposed to work great for what your doing.

[Virgil Johnson]

the pattern lathe i told you about comes with a vfd so the 3ph is not an issue.

Hows does a vfd work?

Why not just replace the motor with a single phase?

That is quite a lathe!

Is it in Hudson?

Virgil

[Dave Bureau]

the vfd converts single phase to 3 phase. and you can also use it for variable speed. All the powermatics and most other lathes with variable speed have a 3 phase motor with a vfd. the machine is in Loudon NH . Ican get you the phone # if you want it.
Dave

[Brian Weick]

If you plan on turning this and producing a positive cash flow then~ so be it~ get a pattern lathe ~~~~that 3ph your worried about, very simple, purchase a 3hp~3 ph induction motor and a 7.5 hp VFD that will run less than $500.00 combined..... this setup is more than you will ever need for an 8' span (24") dia project.
I totally understand your hesitation~ seriously. I was in the same ballpark that you are currently in~ but i could not be more serious in my statement. if you plan on having just (1) turning for this ~ then sub it out to someone that knows what they are doing, it's not worth the investment just for 1 ~. if you are considering making some positive cash flow with this "serious" equipment" then by all means ~ bite the bullet~ this is a similar lathe and ,,,, yes,,,,, it is mine but this is what you should acquire for the desired finished product ~ http://www.owwm.com/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=4070
I hope that you will head my advice.'
Mr.20C

[Virgil Johnson]

If you plan on turning this and producing a positive cash flow then~ so be it~ get a pattern lathe ~~~~that 3ph your worried about, very simple, purchase a 3hp~3 ph induction motor and a 7.5 hp VFD that will run less than $500.00 combined..... this setup is more than you will ever need for an 8' span (24") dia project.
I totally understand your hesitation~ seriously. I was in the same ballpark that you are currently in~ but i could not be more serious in my statement. if you plan on having just (1) turning for this ~ then sub it out to someone that knows what they are doing, it's not worth the investment just for 1 ~. if you are considering making some positive cash flow with this "serious" equipment" then by all means ~ bite the bullet~ this is a similar lathe and ,,,, yes,,,,, it is mine but this is what you should acquire for the desired finished product ~ http://www.owwm.com/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=4070
I hope that you will head my advice.'
Mr.20C

For me it is the challenge of making these poles.
And just one torii gate will pay for a lot of lathe.

I am hesitant about buying old machines.
I know they can be great but I don't want to spend time trying to make an old tool work.

A powermatic (for example) with extra stuff may cost 3 times as much but I have new tool with customer support and easy to find accessories.
And it is much easier to sell if I wish.

Old tools are good if they are a bargain.
But too often old tools are sold as "vintage" (which is OK if you want a vintage tool) but so many prices seem too strong.

I need a tool that is up and working or cheap enough it is worth the effort to get is up and working.

And too often old tools have bits and pieces missing and I would make more money making the torii gate (and I know there will be others) then trying to get together an expensive "vintage" tool.

At least that is my way of thinking.

Virgil

[Matt Hutchinson]

I can certainly understand your concern about new vs. used, but a machine like the one pictured on the previous page has been in use and is already updated with a nice drive system. So from the "trying to make it work" stand point, it's already been done for you.

As for new machines, they will work of course, but the more mass the better. For huge work, like poles and columns, I would always choose a big patternmaker's over a new one if I had a choice, but I also have a soft spot for old iron. I mean, both old and new will require a huge footprint, and so I think it really comes down to usability, not resale. My lathe has some archaic engineering that once in a while is inconvenient, but for the most part I am able to work efficiently.

Anywho, I hope this doesn't just muddy the waters, but if I were closer to NH I would be jumping all over that lathe. That's a price that's unbeatable!

Hutch

[Dave Bureau]

I can certainly understand your concern about new vs. used, but a machine like the one pictured on the previous page has been in use and is already updated with a nice drive system. So from the "trying to make it work" stand point, it's already been done for you.

As for new machines, they will work of course, but the more mass the better. For huge work, like poles and columns, I would always choose a big patternmaker's over a new one if I had a choice, but I also have a soft spot for old iron. I mean, both old and new will require a huge footprint, and so I think it really comes down to usability, not resale. My lathe has some archaic engineering that once in a while is inconvenient, but for the most part I am able to work efficiently.

Anywho, I hope this doesn't just muddy the waters, but if I were closer to NH I would be jumping all over that lathe. That's a price that's unbeatable!

Hutch

Hutch
If I had the room I would already own it. He has all the tooling and all the chisels that go with it. I saw it run and it runs sweet. He also has a Porter 24" jointer and an OOOOld tennoning machine and a 36" bandsaw.

[Brian Weick]

For me it is the challenge of making these poles.
And just one torii gate will pay for a lot of lathe.

I am hesitant about buying old machines.
I know they can be great but I don't want to spend time trying to make an old tool work.

A powermatic (for example) with extra stuff may cost 3 times as much but I have new tool with customer support and easy to find accessories.
And it is much easier to sell if I wish.

Old tools are good if they are a bargain.
But too often old tools are sold as "vintage" (which is OK if you want a vintage tool) but so many prices seem too strong.

I need a tool that is up and working or cheap enough it is worth the effort to get is up and working.

And too often old tools have bits and pieces missing and I would make more money making the torii gate (and I know there will be others) then trying to get together an expensive "vintage" tool.

At least that is my way of thinking.

Virgil

Virgil,
One thing that you may want to consider is the accuracy in the diameter from top to bottom. using the carriage on a pattern lathe assures accuracy ~ that stock between the centers will be perfect in circumference from one end to the other.
If you buy a new modern lathe - such as the mustard/oneway and the like~ they will not have this feature as they are not designed as a pattern lathe is.
That is the advantage of pattern lathes for large cylindrical products. It can be done on a lathe with out the carriage but that takes quite a bit of time to get it perfect from one end to the other and is very difficult to achieve as far as talent is concerned. What ever you decide I hope that all works out for you Virgil ~just trying to save you some disappointment as far as production and quality of what you are producing for your clients.
Best of decision making to you,
Brian

[Virgil Johnson]

Now you guys have got me thinking differently.

I had not considered the aspects you have presented.

I have the room in my shop.

And NH is close by.

I will mull it over a bit since I am working on a 7 day a week schedule
(working on a 1778 stone house (Kingston,NY) and the roof is open.
Got to pay attention to this first!

(I think I have some mill work to get to next.)

Virgil

[Phillip Bogle]

I think that Nova Tekna Tool has something like that on their site. I remember seeing 8 beds in length joined and turning tree trunks. If my memory is correct it was a short video of it in operation.

Although I am with Mike. Contract it out or connect with Outwater or Osborne. The drying and other distortion issues would stop me. The money you can lose would buy the lathe several times over. Something of that size is not a bowl or a lamp. What could look good can go south fast, or 9.75 years on a 10 year warranty.:p