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Doug Griffith
08-14-2009, 11:41 PM
Hi All,
My girlfriend and I have just been given an opportunity to create a VERY large chandelier for a friend. He is doing great in this economy so money isn't an issue. It needs to be approximately 25 feet tall. Starting at 5 feet wide by 1 foot thick and tapering to a point. It drops down the center of a 3 story spiral staircase. I won't have problems designing such a beast but my issue is with lighting. The plan is to use edge lit acrylic and illuminate with fiber optics. Has anybody done anything where a fiber optic cable is fed into the edge of acrylic? I'm sure I'll have to support the weight of each piece with stainless cable so the weight won't be on the fiber optics.

Anybody's experience, sources, or advice would be helpful.

Thanks,
Doug

Rodne Gold
08-15-2009, 12:19 AM
That sounds like a project I would love to tackle , something serious , utilitarian and a design/artistic/technical challenge.
Dunno much about the fibre optics , I would imagine that drilling a small hole and putting the end of the fibre optic into it would light the pex , however to get it to "glow" one would have to etch or engrave the pieces in some way otherwise the pex will also just transmit.
Are you talking about the flourescent perspex when you are talking "edge lit acrylic"?
That stuff is dreadful in terms of "colours" , the colours that really edge glow well are seriously funky and a bit garish (like the yellow or orange or the flourescent green) and the more muted colours like the light blue , glass green dont have heavily "glowing" edges.
If it were me , I would design with the more neutral colours to stop the thing looking seriously dated 5 yrs down the line, unless of course the client wants that "funky" look.
There are some other perspexes you can use as well , like the radiant from degussa (rainbow coatings) or some of their other lighting application pexes.

Anyway , as I said , it sounds like a wonderful project and it lends itself to a "tutorial" here , IE you documenting it from start to finish and showing us how it's going.

Doug Griffith
08-15-2009, 12:36 AM
Yes it is an awesome project! I looked at the space today. The spiral staircase is half surrounded by windows from the top to the bottom. The staircase alone cost $350k.

I plan on an upscale mid-century-modern design with a space-age twist that is subtly lit with the optics. Nothing garish. I'm thinking about the clear with subtle blue edges. I might make a miniature version to confirm it "hangs" correctly. I also think I need to get decent sized samples of the different acrylics, some cable, and an illuminator to figure out what works best.

I will definitely document the whole process.

Cheers,
Doug

David Fairfield
08-15-2009, 8:46 AM
Hi Doug

I'm really interested to see more as you make progress. Also very interested in how you solve the technical issues.

For my miniature work, I've been experimenting with fiber optic and LED illuminated plexiglass. The problem I've encountered with fiber optics is the pin-point nature of the light beam at the end of the strand. Relatively speaking, it doesn't project a lot of light, and its very directional in nature-- unless you're looking at it straight on, the light is barely perceptable.

You may need to bundle several strands together, or get a thick strand to get the light you need to your acrylic piece. In that case it will quickly add up to a massive bundle at the light source. Then you'd also need to consider a housing for your light projector and probably a cooling system for it. The electricals might get large.

I'd consider an LED embedded into each of your acrylic "crystals" connecting to a central bus wire. They have a very long life span that you can think about them in a "permanent" sort of way.

Anyway, good luck with this project. I'm sure a lot of laser operators dream of this sort of thing. I'm bookmarking this thread, very interested to see more.

Dave

Dan Hintz
08-15-2009, 1:29 PM
Doug/Dave,

I can post some helpful hints here when I get back from a "grocery run" I need to make, but I have to head out at the moment...

AL Ursich
08-15-2009, 6:20 PM
I like placing a LED in each piece.... The weight of the wire and of fiber optic is about the same.... That would be a fun project....

AL

Rodne Gold
08-15-2009, 7:29 PM
So its an elongated arrow head tapering from 5 ft to a point and from 1 ft thick to a point
25 ft long...
Its probably going to be real heavy?
What are your plans re this whole thing right now?
1000's of hanging leaf type things? Geometric shapes? solid slabs?
whats the house like , modern , palatial , open plan?

Doug Griffith
08-15-2009, 9:07 PM
So its an elongated arrow head tapering from 5 ft to a point and from 1 ft thick to a point
25 ft long...
Its probably going to be real heavy?
What are your plans re this whole thing right now?
1000's of hanging leaf type things? Geometric shapes? solid slabs?
whats the house like , modern , palatial , open plan?

Hi Rodne,
That's the size. The design is up to us to present to the client. The area it's going to hang from has been rated at 1500 pounds and I'm pretty sure I can keep it under that. It'll be close though. Especially if I have a stainless structure built. I'm thinking of a tubular spiral that tapers down. Then I can use it to distribute the weight and run the cables.

The house is contemporary modern. It's a half round cylinder shape on the side of a hill. All 3 stories are are glass windows that face outwards over the city. Jacuzzi on the roof. Pretty much a swinging bachelor pad for a guy with money.

My plan right now is to figure out the budget and then present a few options that fall within it. Depending on the general design chosen, I'll then do a bunch of sourcing. Once I know the parameters of whats available, I'll work with my girlfriend on the design comps. Then we can make an artistic presentation of what can actually be manufactured.

So far, my hurdle appears to be the mounting point of the cable/wiring to the acrylic. Most of what I have found is industrial in appearance. I may have to have small castings made that do what I need.

Cheers,
Doug

Alexa Ristow
08-16-2009, 11:54 AM
Hi Doug,

We have been playing with LED's of late and the range of colors and ratings available is vast.

1. 3 Watt high power LED's powered by a Buck Puck. Unbelievable lighting power from the smallest of sources. Will blast light right down a length of Acrylic and still provide actual usefull light from the opposite edge!!!
2. SMD strips, RGB with controlers. This option will allow you to tape the strip along
the top edge of a sheet and hide it behind a decorative cover such as pewter or copper. RGB LED's can be adjusted across the whole specrum of colors and intensities and will allow you to do both dimming and mood lighting.


Lasers, Acrylic and LED's are a perfect combination!!

Cheers,

Alexa

Steve Clarkson
08-16-2009, 11:59 AM
Alexa, would love to see some of your LED work.

Randy Walker
08-16-2009, 10:49 PM
Hi Doug
I don't know much about this stuff but it sounds like if you used "led's" some computer controls and a music innerface you could make it something like a 21st century disco ball on steroids.

Just a thought
Randy Walker:D

Dan Hintz
08-17-2009, 11:39 AM
Looks like I forgot to come back to this thread after my grocery run... sorry about that, Doug. I'm at work, so this post won't be too long, either.

First, be careful with using the high-power LEDs... the small 1.5" diameter boards they typically come on are meant to be attached to another heatsink, not run alone, so heat will quickly destroy the die if you run them at rated current without one. Not to mention the serious amount of power you'll be shipping down the stalk of such a beast to handle all of those individual LEDs (unless you ran multiple LEDs in series to raise the voltage, but that increase wiring issues).

In this case, I would go with Doug's original thought to use FO, but that does not mean he can't use LEDs. For heavy amount's of light, a metal halide projector is the typical lighting unit for FO. It may even be wise to combine the two methods... MH for the main room illumination through the FO, and LED for illumination of each panel through separate fibers. Bother the MH projector and the LEDs would be housed above the chandelier and out of site.

Use a good quality glass fiber (not plastic) to cut down on loss through the sides, and be prepared to jacket the FO if side loss is too visible when a large number of bundles are combined. Drill a hole in each panel slightly larger than the FO, insert the FO, and fill with a refractive index matching epoxy. This may create a hotspot along the center of the panel, leaving the upper corners unlit. If total illumination of the panel is required, put a FO cable into both upper corners at a 45 degree angle. As mentioned previously, you do not want to support the weight of the panel with the fiber... if there are any sharp bend, a lot of light can be lost at the bend.




David,

Run the tip of your FO through a flame to mushroom the end, in effect creating a spreading lens. This also applies to Doug if the panels themselves don't spread enough of the light.

Dan Hintz
08-17-2009, 12:17 PM
I have to add, I'm reallllly jealous, Doug... as Rodney said, I'd love the opportunity to work on such a project. I have a lot of cool ideas (well, at least to me) swimming around in my head, but no one to pay for them :( If you need any help on this one, I'm only a plane ride away, and my consultation fees are quite reasonable :D

Scott Shepherd
08-17-2009, 12:38 PM
I'm only a plane ride away,

I've seen your car, you'll be there by lunch time :)

Doug Griffith
08-17-2009, 2:08 PM
Thanks for the info Dan. I looked at the site yesterday and another issue I have is the MH projector location. They get very hot and need adequate space for ventilation. The only space I can possibly put it is over 20 feet away as the FO cable would be routed. And then it would require some serious hacking through the structure which is an all steel construction. And that is at least 30 feet up in a precarious spot. There is a lot more to it than just laser cutting pretty shapes out of acrylic and hanging from cables. This is more of an engineering project.

I'm also looking into light tape. I might be able to get a custom run manufactured that will adhere to the edge of the acrylic. Once again, wiring and attachment points are going to be an issue.

Right now I am waiting for the achitectural plans of the house. They will help me determine if FO cable routing is possible. I'm also contemplating creating a rough 3D model of the stairwell. It will help to visualize during the design stage.

One more thing that is interesting. The house can currently be seen from a freeway about 3 miles away. An illuminated chandelier of this size will definitely "pop".

Cheers,
Doug

Dan Hintz
08-17-2009, 9:26 PM
What about creating a false ceiling to hide the FO, or squaring off the peak if the roof is peaked?

Rodne Gold
08-18-2009, 1:11 AM
The other option or course is not to light the individial pieces of perspex and to built the lighting into the subframe you would have to use to construct the chandelier and hang the pieces off , which would be much simpler , probably as effective and a lot easier to maintain.

Dan Hintz
08-18-2009, 7:03 PM
Rodney has something there... if you make the center stalk metal, you can use that for the projector's heatsink and it can be made pretty compact.

Bill Cunningham
08-18-2009, 10:03 PM
Not being a lighting guroooo, If I had to 'send' concentrated light over a specified distance, I would be thinking 'laser' to a defined spot on the structural frame that would collect the light, and distribute it through F. Optics to the pieces themselves., perhaps using gel filters to alter the colours.. Like i said, I know nothing about this, Just bouncing things off the neurons here...

Dan Hintz
08-19-2009, 7:54 AM
Not being a lighting guroooo, If I had to 'send' concentrated light over a specified distance, I would be thinking 'laser' to a defined spot on the structural frame that would collect the light, and distribute it through F. Optics to the pieces themselves., perhaps using gel filters to alter the colours.. Like i said, I know nothing about this, Just bouncing things off the neurons here...
Lasers are monochromatic (except the ones that aren't ;)), and any one strong enough to be seen by the naked eye you don't want actually hitting your naked eye.

Bill Cunningham
08-20-2009, 8:54 PM
Lasers are monochromatic (except the ones that aren't ;)), and any one strong enough to be seen by the naked eye you don't want actually hitting your naked eye.

Like I said, just bouncing things off the neurons. Hitting a 'target' with a laser, and having the target distribute the beam through F.O. directly into the acrlyic pieces (with perhaps sanded edges to trap the light) the laser beam itself will not be bouncing around the room, and you would not see the 'raw' beam anywhere. I have seen red and green lasers, are there 'blue' lasers? If so, RGB is a good colour mix ..

David Fairfield
08-21-2009, 8:36 AM
Like I said, just bouncing things off the neurons. Hitting a 'target' with a laser, and having the target distribute the beam through F.O. directly into the acrlyic pieces (with perhaps sanded edges to trap the light) the laser beam itself will not be bouncing around the room, and you would not see the 'raw' beam anywhere. I have seen red and green lasers, are there 'blue' lasers? If so, RGB is a good colour mix ..

Funny you mention lasers, actually I tried a red pointer type to get light through a narrow tube to edge-light a small plexiglass part. It worked OK but the light had a peculiar, grainy quality which was unpleasant to look at, plus it wasn't bright at all after it was dispersed inside the plexi.

I'd worry a laser unit with the wattage to illuminate a large entry hall, there would be serious fire and saftey concerns. Not a practical solution without extensive R&D plus safety testing. Cool concept though!

Dave

Dan Hintz
08-21-2009, 10:15 AM
Like I said, just bouncing things off the neurons. Hitting a 'target' with a laser, and having the target distribute the beam through F.O. directly into the acrlyic pieces (with perhaps sanded edges to trap the light) the laser beam itself will not be bouncing around the room, and you would not see the 'raw' beam anywhere. I have seen red and green lasers, are there 'blue' lasers? If so, RGB is a good colour mix ..
Lasers can be made with almost any wavelength (depending upon type, of course), and yes, blue lasers exist (ever seen a Blu-Ray DVD player?). You can even find "full-spectrum" lasers that appear white, but are actually several wavelengths mixed together in the same beam... these are usually broken out into their component wavelengths down the line using filters. While it sounds great in theory, the practicality of it all falls on the floor. An enormous amount of energy is spent making the laser light coherent, which in a nutshell means you're throwing away a lot of energy from the radiating atoms that is not going in the direction you want it to. Then you would try to take this coherent light and spread it out again using optics to make it "non-coherent" (what standard bulbs kick out).

Consider it like taking a 120V-to-12V followed by a 12V-to-120V converter just to run your hair dryer. It'll work, but you waste a lot of energy in the process.

Doug Griffith
08-21-2009, 1:14 PM
Beyond the light/power technicalities, I can't imagine aligning a laser to the end of a fiber optic cable would be an easy task. Even then, an earthquake or breeze would move the chandelier and put it out of alignment.

Bill Cunningham
08-23-2009, 8:36 PM
SEE !! That why I don't do lighting.. :D

Michael Kowalczyk
08-24-2009, 7:57 PM
Hey Dave and Doug,
They have lenses that can make it spot or flood and variable in between. Don't know how micro they can go but I saw a "This old House" program maybe 20 years ago and they had the tech back then to do a Total Fiber optic house with one lite unit in the attic and it lit the entire house with several variations of fixtures. I would call around and see what they have now and maybe if you see what the lens looks like you may be able to engineer one right into the acrylic part.

I did buy some cold cathode lights off of EBay to test some fiber optic samples I was given and want to also take it to the next level when I have time. Also try both glass and plastic fiber and see if you can tell the difference in lumen's.
Thanks and ...

Michael Kowalczyk
08-24-2009, 8:03 PM
Hey Bill,
If Edison thought like that, we might still be using candles ;) today.
Don't give up that easy.

Adam Orton
08-25-2009, 1:44 AM
I have used flickering LED's, the ones used to mimic candles with decent success. I cut acrylic flames like you would find on a hot rod and lit them with the flickering LED's. Perhaps use something like that for the chandelier "candles". I had planned on molding flames to a car dash with programmable and flickering lights.. While on the subject I have done a lot of fiber experimenting, while they are directional I just cut plastic nipples into the acrylic and used heat shrink to attach them then used one LED per five strands.

Dan Hintz
08-25-2009, 7:43 AM
Hey Dave and Doug,
They have lenses that can make it spot or flood and variable in between. Don't know how micro they can go but I saw a "This old House" program maybe 20 years ago and they had the tech back then to do a Total Fiber optic house with one lite unit in the attic and it lit the entire house with several variations of fixtures.
That doesn't sound very practical. You still need a certain amount of light going to each room, and you either get it with multiple bulbs in the attic, or you get it with one giant bulb (that's going to be an energy waste and get REALLY hot). The multiple bulb scenario is more likely, but all you've done is move the bulbs from individual sockets in each room to being all in one place. Sounds like more of a "I was the first on the block to do it" type of situation. If it was 20 years ago, it wasn't LEDs, it was metal halide, and those bulbs get HOT. I wonder what that homeowner is thinking about his decision now...

Bill Cunningham
08-25-2009, 9:29 PM
Hey Bill,
If Edison thought like that, we might still be using candles ;) today.
Don't give up that easy.

I can't afford to buy a patent like Edison did. :D
The light bulb was invented by a Canadian named Henry Woodward, who sold his patent to Edison because he couldn't afford to produce it..
I guess we all have to start someplace :rolleyes:

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/cool/002027-2003-e.html