Washcoat & Stain Question

[Mike Goetzke]

I'm getting ready to start an entry door project. I'm using white oak and would like to stain it before finishing. The stain my wife picked out is General Finishes Water Based Stain. I have never used their products before. The stain has the consistency of paint - it's pretty thick. I was messing with some scraps (even before starting the project) and the finish was way too dark and almost hides the grain. I had some Zinsser SealCoat (wax-free shellac) and applied it to a sample then stained one half full stain strength and the other half I diluted the stain. Both samples were much lighter than the unsealed, but, we both liked the diluted-sealed sample.

1) I'm not a finish expert so is it OK to use the SealCoat full strength as a washcoat or should it be diluted?

2) Anyone have experience with General Finishes water based stains? Is it supposed to be thick/dark/need dilution?

3) Do I need to sand after the washcoat before stain?

4) Do I still need to seal the stained wood with the SealCoat before the final finish?

5) How should I apply the sealer and stain? (I have a Fuji Q4 I use for final finishing)

Thanks,

Mike

[Scott Holmes]

Sealing with shellac will indeed lighten the affect of the stain. It can be a bit tricky if you gett more sealer in some locations than others.

White oak stains very well without the use of a sealer; maybe your best bet would be to buy another stain that is the right color.

Sealing the waterbased stain with shelaac before you top coat is fine.

USe a quality marine varnish that you get at a woodworking store or a marine boat supply store. You don't want any MArine finish that says polyurethane anywhere on the label.

You want a phenolic resin/tung oil marine varnish like Waterlox MArine or one of the top quality brands at the marine supply store. These marine varnishes will be $35-$45 per quart and worth EVERY PENNY.

You will need to re-varnish every 3-5 years. With poly every year for about 5 years then you'll have to strip it and start over, not fun at all.

[Sam Layton]

Hi Mike,

I just finished a bathroom vanity, and used General Finishes. I first made a sample with their water base stain. The sample was about 8" X 18". I left the stain on to long and the grain raised and it looked bad. Second try, I put the stain on and wiped it off. It turned out good. I used GF pre-cat sanding sealer, and GF pre-cat urethane. Looked good.

When I stained my bath vanity face frame, riff sawn red oak, it turned out terrible. I found out that when you have a large area or a lot of detail as in a face frame, the water base stain dries to fast before you can finish. It turned out very uneven and blotchy. The more I tryed to fix it the worse it looked. So, for me, small projects works good, big projects do not work so good. I had to sand the face frame down and refinish.

I switched to General Finishes, oil base stain. The oil base stain worked great. I top coated with the water base GF pre-cat sanding and urethane. It turned out great. The finish off the gun was very smooth. No rubbing out needed.

I checked with GF's and they said it is fine to use the water base top coat over their oil base stain. You do not need to use the shellac between the stain and top coat. You do need to let the oil base stain completely dry. That is the key. I let mine dry about 5 days. Turned out great.

For me, I don't think I could use a water base stain on a project as large as a door and have it turn out good. I like the GF oil base stain. It is easy to work with. The water base pre-cat urethane I also like and will continue to use on my kitchen.

Mike, go to generalfinishes.com, they have a lot of good information on their products.

I used a paint brush and a rag to apply the stain, and sprayed the rest.

I hope this helps, Sam

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Mike,
No need to preseal white oak. You ca use a good oil based pigment stain directly on the bare wood.
If the stain you wife chose seems really thick, it is probably a gel stain. Gel stains will make wood dark but since they basically sit on the surface of the wood they mute the grain. White oak has wonderful grain and if you want to show it off choose a oil based penetrating stain and apply it directly on the wood. If you choose your stain before you make the door, don't forget to pre-stain the portion of the panel that slides into the frame before assembly. That way, when the wood shrinks you will not have a light colored line alongside the frame.
No need to spray the topcoats. An exterior door is subjected to sun and weather and a furniture type finish will not look that way for long. Brush a top grade marine varnish. I use Mc Closkey Man o War.† As mentioned in a previous post, the cost is high and needs to be renewed periodically but it has all the weather and UV protection you will need.
fmr

[Mike Goetzke]

Looks like I will be returning the stain. Hopefully we can find something similar. I went to the GF web site last night and the stain I have is supposed to be on the thick side. But, even on the sample I had the same problem Sam had - it dried way too quickly (nothing to wipe off). That's why I applied the SealCoat and it seemed to give the finish we wanted with the addition of a diluted stain. My door is 36" w/o any glass so if it will be hard to have a consistent finish I guess oil base is the way to go - I'm familiar with with oil based finishes too.

Thanks,

Mike

[Howard Acheson]

First thing I would do is research whether the GF waterbased stain is suitable for exterior applications. Many consumer stains are intended for interior use where they are protected from the heavy UV from outdoor sunlight.

Let me also say that you must fully seal all surfaces of the door. Outside, inside, left and right edges and top and bottom. White oak is more prone to warping than red oak. That's the reason that red oak is generally preferred for an exterior door.

[Mike Goetzke]

White oak is more prone to warping than red oak. That's the reason that red oak is generally preferred for an exterior door.

Funny - I've done lots of research and heard just the opposite to be true:confused:.

[Howard Acheson]

Funny - I've done lots of research and heard just the opposite to be true:confused:.

Take a look at the Wood Handbook put out by the US Forest Service's Forest Products Lab:

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/ch03.pdf

Note the radial and tangential percent of shrinkage. The more the shrinkage, the more likely is the chance for warpage. Look at Table 3-5 on page 3-8.

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Mike,
Though white oak does have a lot of shrinkage, I assume you are buying kiln dried stock. Quarter sawn white oak is quite stable since most shrinkage occurs across face grain of plain sawn lumber. I you have a choice and don't yet own the wood, mahogany is probably a better choice. It is stable, much lighter in weight and easy to make dark, though it will lighten with age. However, both woods have a wonderful resistance to fungus and rot and hold up well in the weather.
fmr