New Dozuki User Questions

[steve swantee]

Hello all, this is a question for all you japanese saw users out there. Previously, I have only used western saws, but I decided to try a Japanese saw just for the heck of it. I picked up the Lee Valley steel backed dozuki to try it out ( for 30 dollars, I know it's not a premium tool, but it should be good enough to learn on, and if I end up not liking it, it's no big deal). Last night I gave it a test run, and it cuts very well. I thought it would be difficult to get used to the pull stroke, but found it quite easy to get used to. My biggest problem is following the line. On a western saw I can adjust the cut one way or the other, but not so with the dozuki. What techniques do you use to ensure your cut is started accurately the first time and follows the line?
Thanks in advance for your replies...
Steve

[Sean Hughto]

I don't think there is much conscious "steering" that can be effectively done in sawing joints. It's more like throwing a ball: you learn the general mechanics/form, and then your brain and muscles work together in the moment to send the ball to its target. The most important strokes in making a cut are the first few - establishing the line is where steering or control happens - after that, it should be a matter of good form to keep the saw tracking the line.

Make sure to set up your work at an appropriate height to allow good form.

Imagine a line or geometric plane extending through the intended cut line to infinity and endeavor to turn your body intoa machine that moves the saw back and forth smoothly on this line/in this plane.

Let the saw do the work - never press down.

[Brian Kent]

Hi Steve. I started with Japanese saws and experimenting with western style. So far the pull saws are more accurate, but it is difficult to adjust if I start getting off.

For most larger cuts I can opt for multiple reference points. Far top corner, close top corner, line across the top, as many as I want to bother with. I end up with very nice accuracy.

I am looking forward to sharpening some new old saws and seeing what I can so western style. I think there is that one western advantage of adjusting in the cut when the handle is on the end going in rather than the end coming out.

[Raney Nelson]

For what it's worth, I learned on western saws, but recently I've been doing a lot of work with japanese saws... I now use both pretty regularly - depending on the wood, type of cut, or even just my mood. Japanese saws respond very well to the strategy that Brian posted above. When I have to make a critical cut, mark all 4 sides of the stock. I don't know if it'll help, but I'll try to describe the mechanics of what I do.

I start with the stock flat on bench, hanging ever so slightly off the front... hold it with left hand while sawing with the right. Then start at the top far corner of the cut, first make a very shallow start using the teeth nearest the handle. Very short strokes - perhaps half a dozen. Then , leaving the saw in that notch, lay it slowly down while taking longer and longer strokes, hitting the line about the same time I've gotten to full length strokes.

Once I've got the saw more or less horizontal, and I have a shallow, but well-registered kerf started, I start to rotate the saw down to the front part of the cut. By keeping the blade registered in the top kerf while swinging it slowly down to the line on the front, you're assured to be correct in two planes. For a non-show cut (or if I'm feeling frisky) once I have the two sides started, I finish the cut diagonally. If it's an absolutely key cut, I'll rotate the stock away from me once I have the second side's kerf defined, and work the third side. In that way, you can go all the way around the stock, and have a good defined kerf on all four sides. From there, it's very easy to keep the saw in-plane working any two sides, and finishing all the way through.

I know this sounds a bit excessive, but it really takes very little time, and I can get a quality of cut with a dozuki that I really can't quite achieve with a western saw. There are two things that are absolutely critical with japanese saws:
First and foremost is to put absolutely NO pressure on the saw. I probably take at least twice as many strokes to make a fine cut with a dozuki as I would with, say, my carcass saw. If you hit the two lines you can see, but find that the saw has 'wandered' out of plane at the back of the stock, you've almost cerftainly put too much down-pressure on the saw. It causes the saw to rotate ever so slightly, and you drift. You'll probably know this is happening because you'll start to get a lot more resistance in the cut.

Second - concentrate on hitting each line exactly. Those first cuts are THE WHOLE BALLGAME. If you miss the line initially, it's very very difficult to correct it. A good dozuki has remarkably little set. If you miss the line on one side, I'd skip it and start working on the next.

Dozukis are NOT meant to be particularly fast saws (though they can be). They are meant to make extremely clean and precise cuts. I've seen good sawyers make a cut I'd have sworn was finished on a shooting board. A good Ryoba or Kataba is more appropriate for almost any cut that is not intended as a finishing cut, where the saw is the last thing to touch the wood.

[Richard Magbanua]

Steve,
What a coincidence. I was just in the shop practicing some crosscuts with my ryoba saw. I've been wanting to buy a crosscut carcass saw lately to compliment my LN rip carcass saw I already have. I eventually will but I've been working on a method using my ryoba to get accurate, square and very clean crosscuts. I'm sure someone else does this already so I'm not saying it's my idea. As far as rip cuts, such as tenon cheeks, I definitely prefer my LN saw.
This is what I do. I first secure the stock on top of another board to my bench with a holdfast. I scribe my cut line and place a wood straight edge along that line with another holdfast. Sometimes banging the holdfast in moves the straight edge a little so I just tap it back into place. I also take a knife to the line for a clean cut. Finally, I take the saw to the straight edge and use my fingers to lightly press it against the straight edge as I make my cut. I find that if I take it easy, especially at the end of the cut, and keep the saw sliding against the straight edge (which btw should be square) I end up with a straight, clean and square cut. I'm not sure you can tell from the pic but the resulting cut is very smooth. Since it's burnished a bit by the blade, it seems smoother than an edge off of the shooting board which may or may not be important but it's kinda cool.
Try it and let me know what you think!

[Richard Magbanua]

another shot of the finished cut...
I think my other pics are out of order but I'm sure you can figure it out.

[Bob Strawn]

Hello all, this is a question for all you japanese saw users out there. Previously, I have only used western saws, but I decided to try a Japanese saw just for the heck of it. I picked up the Lee Valley steel backed dozuki to try it out ( for 30 dollars, I know it's not a premium tool, but it should be good enough to learn on, and if I end up not liking it, it's no big deal). Last night I gave it a test run, and it cuts very well. I thought it would be difficult to get used to the pull stroke, but found it quite easy to get used to. My biggest problem is following the line. On a western saw I can adjust the cut one way or the other, but not so with the dozuki. What techniques do you use to ensure your cut is started accurately the first time and follows the line?
Thanks in advance for your replies...
Steve

A lot of Western saws have a wide kerf and a thick stiff blade. This allows a certain amount of 'English' to be applied to a saw to fix a cut. A Japanese saw kind of locks you in. Thin kerf, thin blade, means there is not a lot you can do. If you do not pull straight when cutting, you can make a bit of a curve in the cut that you are unlikely to be able to adjust. If you mark clearly and cut carefully however, the Jsaws are able to make ideal cuts, even in the hands of an idiot like me.

As perhaps the worst sawman in the history of the world, I have a lot of experience fixing poor cuts. If you have started messing up with a Jsaw, do not try to fix it with controlled flexing of the blade. you will probably mess things up quick.

If you have given yourself enough spare margin on your cut, stop the second you know the cut is going wrong. Take a western saw, with it's wider kerf, recut the part of the cut that is failing. Then you can restart with the Japanese saw and align it properly.

The secret to using the Japanese saw, is to make sure the initial cut is perfect, left-right and forward-back. After that all you have to do is gently pull in a straight even path. I use a ryobi because I like the wider blade to sight down. A back stiffener gets in the way of my line of sight. I make sure my mark is perfect, and then sight along the blade. The blade I want to disappear into the line. This lets me know I am lined up. I push ever so gently to start the cut. My first pull is on the surface of one line, with the blade touching the most wood, to insure a smooth flow. The pull is solid, straight and strong and ever so light. With one eye I am splitting my view along the blade. I push one more time gently. My following pull stroke is using the weight of the blade. After this, I still sight down the blade, while focusing on pulling to a straight line. Until I have a deep enough cut, my push is just barely clear of making a cut. If I want a perfect finish, I remove the blade entirely from the cut and make each stroke new. With a Gyokucho (Razorsaw) 650 240mm Ryoba, I can easily cut a glass smooth finish. A better sawyer than me would probably prefer a 651, but I like the extra stiffness of the 650. Not that any Western style saw user would consider the 650 even slightly stiff.

Seriously, I am left handed and my dominant eye shifts. What worked great five minutes ago, might not work for me now. When I pick up a Western style saw, someone should just slap my hand and say 'NO, BAD!" Bow saws and Jsaws are the only saws I have managed to do good work with. If these saws and methods work for me, then they will work even better for just about everyone else.

Bob

[steve swantee]

Thanks for the tips guys, some good ideas there. I'll get out in the shop and practice a bit more later. Think I'll try out your tip Richard, especially for really critical cuts-looks like it adds a bit of insurance to your result. Also, registering off as many points as possible sounds good too. I have not been putting any pressure on the saw during cutting, and letting the saw do the work, as I have read a couple of posts about breaking teeth due to undue pressure duting cutting. So far I have not had any problems here. All good tips for sure-keep 'em comin'

Steve

[steve swantee]

Just saw your post Bob-neat idea of correcting the cut with the western saw. Have to remember that one.
Steve

[Pam Niedermayer]

Sawing is a skill that one must work at. With dozuki, you might try a two-handed approach, feet spread facing the item, pull with two hands toward your body. This especially helps if you've got any problems with handedness coordinating with sightedness.

After you've done this a few times, try single handed. Be sure not to move your shoulder as you cut, think of the arm as a pendulum holding a saw, don't apply force (let the saw do the cut), don't move your forearm up and down - just fore and aft. This not only works, after some practice you may become a faster-than-anyone-believes sawyer. This skill can also be transferred to western saws if you'd like.

Pam

[Wilbur Pan]

The one thing above everything else that will help you with sawing is to practice. The beauty about practicing sawing is that all you need is some scrap wood. If you have scrap wood lying around, you can become better at sawing.

Having said that, here are some things that I do when using Japanese saws that really help.

1. Hold the handle as far towards the end as possible. The closer you are to the end of the handle, the less any left-right error will translate into sawing off your line.

2. With a Japanese saw, I often start at the far side of the board, and cut towards the near side. When doing this, once I have the cut started, I focus on pulling the saw to the point on the near side of the board that I want. I don't even look at where the saw is actually cutting. Since the pull stroke puts tension on the blade, I trust that the blade will be straight, and that by focusing on where I want to end up, the cut will be straight. This really works.

3. As has been mentioned above, let the saw do the cutting. This is true for both western and Japanese saws, but probably more so for Japanese saws.

Hope that helps!

[Brian Ashton]

The few things I've learned over the years when using pull saws is:

Because the teeth are relatively weak compared to a western saw they can break off quite easily - especially when trying to start one on a very hard wood corner. Very light touch till you get a good start with 5 or so teeth in contact with the wood at the same time will go a long way to stop breaking teeth. I watch one guy in a shop try out a fairly expensive fine toothed pull saw once and literally broke a 1 1/2 inch length of teeth off on the first cut.

I find with western saws my grip is a bit tighter than with a pull saw. I suspect it's because pushing a saw through the wood is a bit less stable than pulling one through. I think the muscles have to work a bit harder to keep things running straight because as you push the saw there is a proportional increase in downward pressure on the wood from the saw which means you have to push harder to get the saw through... Where as a pull saw you have to apply pressure deliberately to get more downward pressure. It helps a lot to keep a light grip all the way through to the wrist and use the finger tips to apply the pressure when needed.

For the first while you may find you have to consciously think about how all your movements are going so as not to use the saw like you would a western saw. I.e. Don't push down on the push stroke. It's easy, especially with the more expensive micro thin blades, to kink the blade because it's bound up on the push stroke. One kink will render a saw worthless real fast. A cheap saw with softer metal will bend and hopefully not crack but a good one will almost always crack. And then the crack always rips more and more very quickly.

Probably the funniest first attempt at a pull saw was when I worked for one furniture shop the boss had just bought his first pull saw from Lee Valley and was showing it off to everyone. So one guy picks it up and asks if he can try it as he's never tried on either... Boss says sure. So the guy picks up a scrap piece off the floor and starts cutting. Gets about an inch in... Problem was, at that shop we did a lot of work with recycled fir out of demo'd buildings - lots of nails. You can see where this is going right... Yup he hits a nail. Took 3/4 of the teeth off with one stroke.

Every friday at that shop we gathered around at the end of the day and voted on who did the dumbest thing that week. The prize was a turned male appendage mounted on a base - the dick head award... Well this guy owned the trophy for about a month for that one.

[steve swantee]

Thanks for your replies. I've been pracitcing some more and am getting better at following the line thanks to your help. I think I may see another Japanese saw in my future.

Steve