Tormek questions

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I want to buy a Tormek, I think, but there are a lot of options and I want to get it right, so a few questions. What is the difference between a Super Grind and a T7? I'll use it for the usual plane blades and chisels, and also I'd like to be able to sharpen my curved gouges, and the hollows and rounds blades. Not even really positive thats possible with the Tormek. Some things that I will never sharpen are planner blades, scissors or axes. Which machine and options would work for this, or am I pursuing the wrong idea? Would something else work better?

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I don't know what the Super Grind is. It could be the new model. I have the T-7. If you want to sharpen gouges, you'll need to buy the woodturners package. It's cheaper than buying alll the little accessories one at a time. If you want to sharpen the small carving gouges, the jig is too big, may have to buy teh smaller gouge jig. I really like the T-7 for sharpening, although there's a lot of Tormek bashers here on this forum. It all depends. The dry grinders are fast, and the Tormek get you a (highly disputed) better edge, which I think lasts longer. The big thing for me is that it can sharpen virtually everything in your house making the LOML happy. Although she recently bought a ceramic knife, which is pretty amazing. No need (cannot) sharpen that.

I really like the Tormek, I think it's worth the money. IMO, if you want to sharpen planes and flat stuff, there are better, but nothing I've seen can match the repeatability of the Tormek on a gouge. Takes away a minimum of metal, gives a keen edge, even if you don't hone it. If you have it set up, it takes just a few seconds to pop the gouge into the jig and couple sweeps and you're done. Grinding a new angle takes a LOOOONG time though.

There is a Tormek users' group that you can join to ask very pro-Tormek people about the machine.

[Fred Hargis]

I want to buy a Tormek, I think, but there are a lot of options and I want to get it right, so a few questions. What is the difference between a Super Grind and a T7?
Wasn't the SuperGrind an earlier model? I know the T-7 is the current offering.....

[David Christopher]

Steve, I have the tormek clone but I use the tormek jigs ( they work better) I feel the same way...the edge that you can achieve with it is easy and repeteable.....I would recomend it to anyone that sharpens anything

[Jim McFarland]

I think the T-7 is just the designation for the new & improved model formerly known as the Supergrind (e.g. Supergrind 2006). There is a smaller-wheel T-3 wet grinder as well. Here's a leaflet describing T-7 features:
http://www.tormek.com/en/leaflet/pdf/leaflet_t7_en.pdf

A couple of T-7 improvements are a better square edge jig (SE-76, although I actually prefer the older model for some thicker items) and wheel truing tool. I thought I recalled an improvement in the internals as well (some part now stainless), but I can't find that information so may not be accurate.

Edit to add: woops, I was writing while Fred was posting -- didn't intend to repeat his information -- sorry!

[Don Morris]

I just went to Tormek's site and it appears that the new terminology is the Super Grind T7 is now their larger model a 10" wheel. I've got that but in the older green color. They now also have a smaller model, an 8" wheel, which would of course produce a more hollowed result. I don't see much or really any "hollowed wheel produced result" difference in my results from when I was sharpening with wet stones. Thus I love my Tormek. I now get similar results in just a few minutes (in many cases just a few seconds) and with a lot less effort and great consistency. Yes, I've been to the Lie Nielsen Hand Tool Event local course and went through their demonstration with an expert on how to do it and it didn't take very long using wet stones; but overall, my Tormek is soooo much faster to get me to about the same result. I can read newspaper through the shavings I produce. Beyond that you're above my level, and you're milking mice in my book.

I also bought the wide blade knife attachment (SVM-140) and do the kitchen knifes which keeps LOML happy. You'll find the Stone Truing Tool a requirement in time (ADV-50D). I don't do turning so I can't help you there. Hope that helps some.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Thanks guys, lots of info to absorb.

To clarify the gouges, they are mostly not turning tools. Basically really large carving type stuff. I got a set of them from Patrick Leach, and while they are great for what I want to do, they need an edge bad. I do have a lathe and the basic tools too. Both things will need sharpened.

The consistancy is the major reason that I'm leaning to Tormek. I also think that they provide a better edge, and are a heck of a lot faster then the "scary sharp" system that I have now.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Steve, I sharpen carving tools with a 1" wide belt sander.

The belts, as well as as a leather belt for stropping are available from lee Valley.

For carving tools, turning tools, and grinding of plane blades etc, I find the belt grinder to be ideal.

For other duties I use water stones, or sheet abrasives on a granite plate for flat objects.

That's my 2 cents worth (1.5 US) for you........Rod.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Hi Steve, I sharpen carving tools with a 1" wide belt sander.

The belts, as well as as a leather belt for stropping are available from lee Valley.

For carving tools, turning tools, and grinding of plane blades etc, I find the belt grinder to be ideal.

For other duties I use water stones, or sheet abrasives on a granite plate for flat objects.

That's my 2 cents worth (1.5 US) for you........Rod.

Rod, do you use a particular machine, or homebuilt? I'll wander over to Lee Valley. I've thought about this approach, but was concerned about the grit size, and longevity of belts. Thoughts? I suppose the strop finishing step really finalizes a keen edge.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Google sharpening made easy. He has a great site, and gives you directions to make your own belt sharpening rig. He sells the Tormek too.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Great site Kyle, thanks for the lead.

I think I need a T-7, a Woodturners kit, a knife jig, and a short tool jig. Funny thing is, that adds up to nearly the same as just getting the T-7, and the "Magnum" package, but I get three more jigs with the bigger package. Guess alacarte is not the way to go here. Found a place with free shipping too. Guess I'll sleep on it, and if I still want it in the morning, you guys will be to blame.:D

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Kyle,

I don't remember anyone arguing that the Tormek doesn't get a better edge. I believe the two arguments against it are 1) it's slower and 2) it's expensive.

I am sure Bernie Weishapl has one and swears by it. I suspect it's like a lot of things the more you use it, the faster and better you become with it.

Some day when I have the money, I'll probably own one. Right now, I want a mortiser and a new jointer first.

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod, do you use a particular machine, or homebuilt? I'll wander over to Lee Valley. I've thought about this approach, but was concerned about the grit size, and longevity of belts. Thoughts? I suppose the strop finishing step really finalizes a keen edge.

Hi Steve, I have the Lee Valley grinder (just add motor and switch).

I used a 1/4 HP motor, with reverse so that I have a choice of belt direction.

The belts LV sell covers the grit range needed for grinding, all the way to honing.

I can't comment on the belt life since I haven't replaced the original number I purchased years ago. If I had to guess I'd say that on average I'm buying 3 belts per year of different grits.

The strop puts a mirror finish on edges that do well with very slight rounding such as carving tools and knives.

Funny thing about knives is that if they're too sharp they don't work well for some applications. Slicing tomatoes and fruit for example, a knife with very fine scratch marks from the grinding belt works better than a much sharper knife straight from the strop. I guess the scratch marks work like tiny saw teeth to cut the skin.

Regards, Rod.

[Jeff Farris]

...
Funny thing about knives is that if they're too sharp they don't work well for some applications. Slicing tomatoes and fruit for example, a knife with very fine scratch marks from the grinding belt works better than a much sharper knife straight from the strop. I guess the scratch marks work like tiny saw teeth to cut the skin.

Regards, Rod.

This is somewhat off topic, but...

I've seen this comment regarding a honed edge in more than a few places and with regard to more than a few tools, and I just don't buy it. If your knife won't go through a tomato skin with a slight touch, it isn't sharp in the first place, and the honing wasn't done correctly (or an earlier step wasn't done correctly). A toothed edge on a tool may cut some materials, but I don't believe the edge can possibly last as long or cut as cleanly as a properly honed edge. This goes for culinary knives, carving knives, utility knives, turning tools and bench tools. The only tool where I leave any tooth at all is a pair of scissors.

[Doug Mason]

I have a 6 inch grinder, a belt grinder (Wilton) and the Tormack. I find the belt grinder handles anything I don't do on the grinder (gouges, drawkife,etc). I don't use my Tormack because it is simply too slow (in addition to being an over-the-top cash drain on your pocketbook). When I'm in the shop working on a project I don't have the time to set-up endless jigs to sharpen/hone my tools--I want to hone/stroop in a couple minutes or less and do a fast grind on the grinder/belt-sander. Of course I am an amatuer and this is just my opinion:)

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Jeff, I sure you can answer this, there are three different wheels available, silicon carbide, a Japanese waterstone, and the standard. What situations would each be best suited for?

[Jeff Farris]

Steve,

The SG-250 (the standard stone) is more than likely all you will ever need. The SB-250 Blackstone is designed specifically for HSS (high speed steel) and exotic hard alloys. It cuts those steels faster and has better wear characteristics, but doesn't cut carbon steel (as found in carving tools and bench tools) as well as the SG-250. The SJ-250 Japanese Waterstone is nice for very fine carving tools, but in my personal estimation offers little advantage over the SG-250 and the stone grader.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

One of the threads did point out that one person "preferred" the ragged grinder edge on a gouge, much like slicing tomatoes. It's just opinions. I personally like the honed edge.

IMO, there is only 1 thing a serrated knife cuts better than the sharpest knife I own. Bread..... The serrared bread knife doesn't smash the bread.

[Jeff Willard]

I feel the Tormek is overkill for turning tools. The time spent setting up and honing an edge would be wasted. The only exception would be a chisel-skew or straight. All my gouges and scrapers go to the bench grinder, then back to the work in progress. Takes all of about 20 seconds.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Once set up, it only takes seconds to put the gouge in the jig, take a couple sweeps on the stone, then on the hone. It does not take more than 20 seconds either. The initial grinding of the gouge is slow. Once set, the angle never changes. You take away a minimum of metal. It could change if you have multiple gouges and multiple angles. I haven't changed the setting since I bought the Tormek. It takes maybe a minute or 2 if I have to set the Tormek up and fill the tray with water.

[Jeff Farris]

Jeff Willard,

You may feel that way, but if you would put the Tormek sharpened tool to the test, I think you would change your mind.

We've just recently introduced a new product that allows you to use the Tormek jigs with a bench grinder (BGM-100). At the AAW symposium in Albuquerque a few weeks ago I demonstrated it for the first time, and, consequently, used a dry grinder on my turning tools for the first time in many, many years. I was simply amazed at the difference between going to the lathe from the dry grinder and going to the lathe from the Tormek. The ease of cut and surface finish were significantly better from the Tormek. I wasn't the only one that was amazed. Many experienced turners who held the same opinion as you changed their minds when they watched the cut and felt the finish.

In addition, I removed more tool in one weekend of demonstrating both systems (and the dry grinder only occasionally) than I had in the previous year's worth of demonstrations using the Tormek alone.

Here's a link to an article from "Woodturning" magazine a few years ago.

http://tormek.com/en/leaflet/pdf/wet_or_dry_en.pdf

In my opinion, the only valid criticism of the Tormek as a sharpening system for turning tools is that it takes a long time to reshape a tool. Since that reshaping should be an infrequent task, I don't think that creates a serious problem for most folks. However, if you reshape your tools frequently and have a dry grinder just sitting around, the Bench Grinder Mount can solve that problem.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Jeff, I think I know of another Tormek weakness, in-cannel gouges. I can't think of any way to sharpen these short of a rounded stone. I'm just planning on shaping the bevel with a set of stones, and touching up on the leather strop. Is there a better way? Molding planes also present some of the same issues, but I doubt that there is anything besides a slip stone that will work on them.

Attached is a Henery Taylor stock photo of one.

[Jeff Farris]

Steve,

Profiled stones are probably the best option, but where there's a will, there's a way. I have been known to round over the outside edge of the Tormek grindstone with the stone grader and freehand grind in cannel gouges by following the gouge sweep over the rounded edge.

I lap molding plane irons on the side of the wheel and polish the profile with the profiled honing wheel. Cutting the profile with any abrasive -- power or hand -- will alter the profile. If you do all your work from the flat side, your molding profile will remain pristine.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Jeff, thanks for the tips! Honestly would have taken me years to figure that out! I'm sold on the Tormek. Really appreciate your taking the time to post here. Same for the rest of you guys. I've been here a while, but every now and then the depth of the knowlege base suprises me.

[Danny Burns]

If I had a lot of in-cannel gouges to do, then I would use a paper wheel on a grinder, shaped to a tight radius, and if I had just the occasional in-cannel gouge to do I would use a soft piece of wood cut to match the profile.

http://www.chippingaway.com/WoodCarving/SharpeningTools/UltimatePowerHoner.htm

[Steve Rozmiarek]

If I had a lot of in-cannel gouges to do, then I would use a paper wheel on a grinder, shaped to a tight radius, and if I had just the occasional in-cannel gouge to do I would use a soft piece of wood cut to match the profile.

http://www.chippingaway.com/WoodCarving/SharpeningTools/UltimatePowerHoner.htm


Thats pretty cool Danny! I have enough stuff laying around that I could build one of those. You could turn the wheels to fit common profiles, kind of a custom fit thing. Might whip one up one of these days. Put that and the Tormek on the sharpening stand, and my sharpening process would be seriously streamlined!