Forrest blade concerns. Advice.

[Matt Allan]

Well since reading through the previous big thread on Forrest blades, and the possible problems with them that could result in a blade failure I am paranoid now. So I took 2 of my forrest blades out today and cleaned them up to get a good look at them. Judging from the first picture that is causing all the commotion, I am kind of worried. To me mine looks worse, and isn't just a single tooth.

I don't really know the problem, or anything about it. I was just assuming it was because it was not seated nicely in the cut out and the void looks to be filled in with material that it shouldn't be. I am terribly sorry if when you see the pictures my blade is fine, I don't mean to waste anyone's time. If mine is in bad shape though I figured it was worth the time instead of finding out as a piece comes hurling at me..:)

2 pictures of the same blade are below, different areas. Others are like it around it as well.

I greatly appreciate your time.

matt

[Dave Morgan]

Well since reading through the previous big thread on Forrest blades, and the possible problems with them that could result in a blade failure I am paranoid now. So I took 2 of my forrest blades out today and cleaned them up to get a good look at them. Judging from the first picture that is causing all the commotion, I am kind of worried. To me mine looks worse, and isn't just a single tooth.

I don't really know the problem, or anything about it. I was just assuming it was because it was not seated nicely in the cut out and the void looks to be filled in with material that it shouldn't be. I am terribly sorry if when you see the pictures my blade is fine, I don't mean to waste anyone's time. If mine is in bad shape though I figured it was worth the time instead of finding out as a piece comes hurling at me..:)

2 pictures of the same blade are below, different areas. Others are like it around it as well.

I greatly appreciate your time.

matt


Mattffice:office" /><O:p></O:p>

What you see is hand work not made by machine. I believe your blade is just fine. I will be visiting with Jim Forrest Jr. in the morning to get a more technical explanation<O:p></O:p>

of what is acceptable. As soon as I get the facts I will post what Forrest has to say here on the Saw Mill Creek.<O:p></O:p>

Thanks<O:p
Dave Morgan<O:p
General Manager<O:p
3D Saw Blades
866.398.9336<O:p

[Matt Allan]

Well I am confused then. What is it about the first blade that was bad? I thought it was the filling between and too much of it. Mine to me looks like it has even more on a few of the teeth.

I am not questioning you at all, I honestly have no idea. I am just curious what to look out for since it seems to be a safety issue from reading the other thread.

I really appreciate the reply.

matt

[Ray Thompson]

Those do not look ok to me. It would be my opinion that the carbide is not seated properly in the blade. Personally I would not use those blades in my saw.

Ray

Addy protocol - 40 years in tooling and hundreds of carbide brazings.

[John Weber]

Matt,

John M. had a blade that cut poorly and was return to Forrest for evaluation and repair or replacement. Gene said his brazing looked bad, but had not used the blade or had it evaluated by Forrest. I'm sure you can talk to Dave and have Forrest evaluate you blades, however I've not heard any reports of a blade failing in use. If you feel it may not be safe, it's important that you have Forrest give it a complete evaluation.

John

[thomas prevost]

Question? not saying it is unsafe, but I have noticed in all of the pics that the carbide height differs from point to point. The middle one in these pics appear to be lower than the one on each side. This may cut low and create extra stress on the next point, causing failure that John M. saw on the original post. Just an idea.

[Carole Valentine]

Thomas, I think what you are seeing is the Alternate Tooth Bevel which makes it appear that every other tooth is set lower. If you flip the blade over and look at it from the other side, the teeth you originally thought looked low would appear high.

[Terry Hatfield]

First let me say that I don't know a thing about brazing. What I do know is that Forrest is a good company that has been arund for a long, long time and Dave at 3D has always treated his customers fairly and did whatever is necessary to rectify any problems.

I spoke to Dave this morning and he has forwarded all the posts about this matter from the various forums to Forrest and he is in costant contact with Forrest keeping them updated on what is going on. Forrest is to have a meeting today and decide what they need to do to make this right. I have complete confidence in Forrest and in Dave from 3D. I feel sure that the situation will be rectified. Dave will post here when a answer comes to him from Forrest. We must realize that even in our up to the minute internet world that Forrest has no presence on the net. Not sure why, but they don't. Dave is their main internet contact and I have complete confidence that Forrest will make this right and Dave will do whatever he can to help anyone with concerns about their blade.

Thanks,

Terry

[Ray Thompson]

My first post was probably a bit strong. Let me add that I don't own or use any Forest products nor do I know anything about their manufacturing processes. I can only base an opinion on the pictures that have been posted, hardly scientific or sound engineering.

I would put the blades aside until I had gotten a neutral third party opinion. I would let Forest know about my concerns and I would contact a metallurgist specializing in joining of dissimilar metals and get an opinion. If still not satisfied in my mind I would file a report with the Consumer Products Safety Commission and let them do some tests. If the produt is sound Forest will be exonerated and life will go on. If not appropriate action will be taken.

Hopefully this is more of a help.

Ray

[Dave Morgan]

Well since reading through the previous big thread on Forrest blades, and the possible problems with them that could result in a blade failure I am paranoid now. So I took 2 of my forrest blades out today and cleaned them up to get a good look at them. Judging from the first picture that is causing all the commotion, I am kind of worried. To me mine looks worse, and isn't just a single tooth.

I don't really know the problem, or anything about it. I was just assuming it was because it was not seated nicely in the cut out and the void looks to be filled in with material that it shouldn't be. I am terribly sorry if when you see the pictures my blade is fine, I don't mean to waste anyone's time. If mine is in bad shape though I figured it was worth the time instead of finding out as a piece comes hurling at me..:)

2 pictures of the same blade are below, different areas. Others are like it around it as well.

I greatly appreciate your time.

matt



Matt
I have not got all the info from Forrest as of yet but I think we should replace your saw blade just to be on the safe side. Please contact me at dave@forrestblades.com (3D Saw Blades Sales) or give me a call at 866.398.9336. That blade might run forever with no problem or might not, I just don't know. When you contact me I will UPS call tag the old blade and send you a new one right away.

[Jim Becker]

We must realize that even in our up to the minute internet world that Forrest has no presence on the net. Not sure why, but they don't.
Not so, Terry. http://forrest.woodmall.com is the Forrest web site.

[Dave Morgan]

Not so, Terry. http://forrest.woodmall.com is the Forrest web site.
Jim
Forrest internet site is a Yahoo store www.stores.yahoo.com/forrestman (http://www.stores.yahoo.com/forrestman) with no email customer service link.
Customers may contact Customer Service at Forrest Mfg. by phone at 800.733.7111.
So you are both right.

Dave Morgan at 3D Saw Blades

[John Weber]

I'm not sure if this means anything, other then showing my blade needs cleaned, but this is my WWII on my table saw, it's a couple years old and has been sharpened once by Forrest. Cuts excellent. The brazing does appear much nicer then Dave's photo, although I need to clean it for a closer inspection.

John

http://www.weberwoodworking.com/picss04/forrestWWII.jpg

[Jim Becker]

Jim
Forrest internet site is a Yahoo store www.stores.yahoo.com/forrestman (http://www.stores.yahoo.com/forrestman) with no email customer service link.
Customers may contact Customer Service at Forrest Mfg. by phone at 800.733.7111.
So you are both right.

Dave Morgan at 3D Saw Blades
Links to the same place, Dave... :D

[Greg Mann]

Thomas, I think what you are seeing is the Alternate Tooth Bevel which makes it appear that every other tooth is set lower. If you flip the blade over and look at it from the other side, the teeth you originally thought looked low would appear high.
Carol is absolutely right with regard to the staggered tooth issue. As far as the brazing is concerned, you are not seeing a gap being filled with solder. That is the excess solder you would see much the same as the excess you would see on copper pipes that were not completely wiped. This is not an indication of a bad joint, only the result of a non-automated process. Gene' original pictures showed porosity (little pinholes) in the braze and that is cause for more concern. None of the blade pictures posted subsequent to his have shown the same condition.

Matt, no offense but your use of the word "paranoid" it appropriate. Your fear is real but unfounded. Your blade does not show any of the condition that Gene's did. What we have here is the concurrence of two unrelated events, John's losing a tooth and Gene's admittedly poor braze. The origin of John's problem could have its origins in shipping (abusive handling) or some other now undiscoverable event. Gene's blade clearly is not up to Forrest's standards IMO. But that is really the point here. These are pretty random events, outliers or anomolies as we call them in our industry. Everyone should give their blades a good check, something we should do periodically with all cutting tools anyway, and then go back to work with some renewed peace of mind. I personally believe we all put ourselves in relatively more danger when we work in front of our pedestal grinders than when we work in front of any Forrest blade.

Greg

[Mike Cutler]

Matt. In a previous post on this subject, I cautioned against condemning a blade based solely on a visual inspection. The inspection criteria is too subjective.It literally takes years and hundreds of joint inspections, along with formal training to become proficient in this area. Gene's resume backed up his ability to question the integerity and quality of the joint. It is also difficult to analyze from an internet picture. As stated Gene's blade showed evidence of voids/pits caused by the introduction of contaminants, in the brazing process. How they got there is up to Forrest to figure out. From the pictures of your blade I see a nice even concave fillet, that appears to be uniform from tooth to tooth. I see no evidence of foriegn material contaminants/pitting, I see good flux distribution. and there does not appear to be any evidence of overheating. The bridge distance could be smaller than it appears, again it appears to be uniform from tooth to tooth.
I am not trying to imply that you do, or do not have a problem. If you still don't feel comfortable with the blade return it to Dave.
It still speaks volumes to me of this man's integerity that he is participating in discussions that are negative, with respect to the product he sells, and is seeking to help resolve the issue when he could have ducked the whole affair. Thank you for your time and patience Dave. My .02 fwiw.

[Dave Morgan]

Matt. In a previous post on this subject, I cautioned against condemning a blade based solely on a visual inspection. The inspection criteria is too subjective.It literally takes years and hundreds of joint inspections, along with formal training to become proficient in this area. Gene's resume backed up his ability to question the integerity and quality of the joint. It is also difficult to analyze from an internet picture. As stated Gene's blade showed evidence of voids/pits caused by the introduction of contaminants, in the brazing process. How they got there is up to Forrest to figure out. From the pictures of your blade I see a nice even concave fillet, that appears to be uniform from tooth to tooth. I see no evidence of foriegn material contaminants/pitting, I see good flux distribution. and there does not appear to be any evidence of overheating. The bridge distance could be smaller than it appears, again it appears to be uniform from tooth to tooth.
I am not trying to imply that you do, or do not have a problem. If you still don't feel comfortable with the blade return it to Dave.
It still speaks volumes to me of this man's integerity that he is participating in discussions that are negative, with respect to the product he sells, and is seeking to help resolve the issue when he could have ducked the whole affair. Thank you for your time and patience Dave. My .02 fwiw.
Thanks Mike
With all that is going on we are having ISP problems. Our ISP is a 100 year old family owned local phone company with old bad no band width equipment. I have a 40" satellite dish going in Thursday from Direcway and sure hope it makes things better. When thats happens I'll be able to answere and visit faster. Sometimes it takes hours to get the interent to hook up fast enough to work. We will take care of folks.

[sascha gast]

seriously, now we tell forrest how they should make their blades??? any of you guys heard of a forrest blade losing teeth while cutting. suddenly there are tons of pictures of apperently bad blades. if you are worried, call forrest but don't start anything. whether you know anything about soldering or not, forrest know a lot about their product and suddenly we like dewalt's(default's) craftsmanship better.
there are many good blades out there, forrest to me being still at the top.

[Matt Allan]

Matt. In a previous post on this subject, I cautioned against condemning a blade based solely on a visual inspection.


seriously, now we tell forrest how they should make their blades??? any of you guys heard of a forrest blade losing teeth while cutting. suddenly there are tons of pictures of apperently bad blades. if you are worried, call forrest but don't start anything

I in no way was condemning any blade, telling anyone how to make a blade or starting anything. I don't know where that came from. Hence me saying "I don't really know the problem, or anything about it.", I just thought it might be worth my time to take a few quick pictures of a piece of metal spinning in front of me. I figured if someone could look at a picture and tell me "Hey it's fine" Or "It has a problem" then it was worth my time.

I did not say the blade was bad, I said I had no idea and asked for advice. A few people have jumped up saying in one way or another it's wrong or unfair. What if someone was going to post a picture of their blade that does have a real problem, but now won't because they are afraid of getting ganged up on people saying to leave Forrest alone... What if their blade was manufactured poorly and failed and injured them, would that be better?

A lot of people including myself have no idea what to look out for, that is why I want to find out.

Don't mean to confront anyone I just don't see the problem of anyone asking for advice on a subject of safety, if its a blade or anything else. If you don't want to comment on something about it, skip the posts.

Thank you

[sascha gast]

but i did want to comment!!!

sascha

[Mike Cutler]

Matt. I apologize if the tone of my post in any way offended you or made you feel uncomfortable to post. I in no way meant it to be an attack on you or any other individual. I addressed the post to you solely out of courtesy, because you were the thread initiator, and to me, this is "your" thread.
My statements were meant to be addressed to everyone in general and no one person in particular. Once again I apologize to you personally and everyone in general if my post in any offended anyone or could inhibit any person from asking a question, on any subject.
I was trying to caution against putting the "cart before the horse" .
The process of brazing is as much an art form as it is a science of mettalurgy. It takes classic classroom training, and years of experience to become a good welder/brazer and even more time to become an inspector.
The variables involved are almost infinite, types and properties of various steels, classes of weld, flux material, brazing material, heat ranges and it just goes on. I'd really like to hear Glen Clabo or Bruce Page's thoughts on the subject.
A better way to summarize my position is that I believe that Forrest is committed to manufacturing a quality product. I also believe that whomever is the weld engineer for Forrest will review these issues, and hopefully be in a position to alleviate peoples concerns. The materials and weld map for Forrest blades may be proprietary in nature thus precluding a detailed technical response.
I've never owned a Forrest blade, I'm not sure if I've used one either. I pretty much use Freuds for crosscuts and CMT for ripping. No bash on any blade out there, I just haven't had cause to replace the ones I currently have.
It's a fine thread you started Matt. Thank you for initiating it.