What tools would you start with for a shop doing more than Turning?

[Joshua Dinerstein]

My Fellow Creekers...

I have been a turner for a few years now. Prior to that I occasionally built a wood work bench at each house in the garage. So count on 2 or 3 of those and other than that nothing since High School.

A cousin who loved close got bitten by the bug and started working with wood and then wanted a lathe and it was about this time that I went over and watched and well I got bitten too. Sadly the bite seems to have been fatal... to my wallet at least. I went from a cheap HF $70 lathe to their $250 lathe to a Jet 1642evs to a Powermatic 3520b. Of course dust collection followed as well as a sliding compound miter saw etc...

I learned a love for beautiful wood and how fantastic well made things from wood can be both in appearance and in functionality.

So flash forward to today. My wife and I bought a new house. This gave us 2 things. Finally a full 1 1/2 bay sized garage bay to be JUST my woodshop as well as 2 more bays to park the cars in AND more than 2x the space on the inside of the home itself. So the furniture we had just doesn't begin to fill the space. Ah ha! Time to start making furniture as well as turning "just for the fun of it"!

I got online and found some plans being sold by a wood magazine and for the most part they look doable to me. I already have some of the tools that will be needed. Drills, hand sanders, etc... But there are a few big ticket items that I will need. But I don't want to follow the same path as I did with the lathe. Spending hundreds of dollars, well ok a bit more than that actually so sometimes thousands, just to finally upgrade to a machine not only does what I want it to do but makes it easier instead of harder to accomplish a given task.

So I am left trying to put together the rest of the tools. I figure I need a table saw, a band saw, a planer, and a few various sanders. I have hand held sanders but a good oscillating spindle sander could for instance be a good addition. Much of this guessing at what was needed came from watching His Normness on TV, various DIY shows, etc...

But this is where things take a turn for the worse for our hero (that would be me in this story... :) I started looking around primarily at Home Depot and other related stores. They have TSes for $90. But I have seen this movie! I figure that a $90 table saw is going to be about as good as that first $70 lathe I bought first. So I started looking for more. Their higher end TSes look a ton better but are still not quite what I was expecting. A few books later and a DVD on mastering your table saw and what I realized was that there are just too darn many options. And unless I want to buy one of each and compare them myself I need to ask those who have gone down this path before me. So I started with the internet at large. And OF COURSE you get conflicting answers. One is buy the very largest and best, read most expensive, TS you can lay your hands on. Go right to the top and get the best. The very next page says no way would that person recommend more than a basic contractors saw to a beginner as you "just never know..." This of course helped... tho not much as for the most part they all said avoid the ~ $100 saws.

A few more facts first. I think what what I want to make is rather simple. I want to make a bed frame for the wife and I, a bed-end blanket-box/seat, perhaps a dresser or two, some mirror stands for the LOML, a table/desk for the babies room as she grows, toy boxes etc...

So here we are with me asking on the very best place on the net to ask such questions:

1- What do I really need tool wise in order to start making some decent furniture for use around the house? TS? BS? Planer? Sanders? ???

2- Is a table saw necessary? Is it a good idea? Is there a better idea?

3- What about a band saw? Necessary? Helpful? A waste of time and money?

Now we get down to the hard ones...

4- Assuming yes to the above, What table saw? Before we even get to brand/make/model what type of table saw would you really recommend for someone just getting into this kind of wood working? Are these small garage one from HD really worth anything? What about a contractors saw? Or is it really hybrid or better/larger really what is needed?

5- Given that answer being yes get a TS, what brand/make/model would you recommend? Grizzly has so many variations I had no clue what would be better... all at seemingly reasonable prices. Or is Delta/Jet/Powermatic/??? a better starter saw and worth the difference?

Also I am a programmer by trade and given that I quite literally make my living with my hands and all 10 fingers I have been looking at the online ads, videos, stories for the Sawstop saws. They seem like a great idea. Something that can and will save you from pretty catastrophic injuries seems like a good idea. If it isn't just a gimmick. The price on them is amazingly high in some ways tho. Grizzly's contractor saw start around $500 and go up to over a $1000. The SS table saws seem to start at around $1600 and go up from there.

6- Are used tools a good idea? I bought a rabbeting jointer that was from the early 60s and was made by Powermatic. What an amazingly well made tool. So I started looking for a used TS. I have never seen so many bottom-end Ryobi tools. Most of which looked... wretched. I suppose if I am patient enough I can find a good deal. If I knew what to look for! :)

Well I fear I went on a little long and haven't even really gotten to the rest of the list. So I will just summarize by saying how about the same types of questions for the bandsaw and sanders, planers etc... that I might need?

Thanks a Million!
Joshua

[Von Bickley]

Joshua,

For what you will need I would reccomend a GOOD contractor TS, a GOOD miter saw, and a GOOD router. Your first project should be a router table and then outfeed tables for the TS and miter saw. Then you can get a few more routers and a drill press......

[Kyle Iwamoto]

No brainer for the TS. If you can spring for the SawStop, buy one. Keep all 10 fingers. The SS is a really good saw. You have my dream lathe, the SS should be no problem.

A 14" Bandsaw will be handy. I think the band saw is one of the most underestimated saws out there. Very useful once you get one. Kerf is MUCH smaller than the TS. Don't have to cut straight too. Can cut bends.

[Cody Colston]

A good tablesaw, either contractor or cabinet saw.
A jointer - a 6" will work but an 8" is a better investment.
A thickness planer - goes hand in hand with a jointer. The lunchbox models do a good job without costing an arm and a leg.
A router or three - one in a table is a good idea.
A bandsaw - you can cut curves with a jigsaw but for re-sawing, nothing beats a bandsaw.
Those are the major power tools. A decent block plane and a set of bench chisels are indispensable, also.

As you get into building furniture, you will discover other tools that are either necessary or make the task so much easier that you will want them. The turning vortex is just one aspect of a bigger addiction that is called woodworking. It's all fun and it's all expensive but worth it, IMNSHO. :D

BTW, you have my "dream lathe", too.

[Howard Norman]

A decent contractors table saw with a good blade will allow you to build furniture. The problem is dust collection. I have used a Delta contractors saw for many years and wish that I had purchased a cabinet saw because of the dust collection problems. If I was where you are I would consider one of the Grizzly cabinet saws. You are probable going to want a jointer. I have the Grizzly 0490 jointer myself. A decent planer should be added also. I have an old Delta lunchbox planer myself. Keep saying that I am going to replace it but just never get around to it. I have a Delta 14" bandsaw but I don't consider it essential to furniture building.

[William Nimmo]

You already know what you are going to do. You are going to research tools and buy the best you can afford. These boards have opinions all over the map.
I love festool tools and did the same thing you did with every tool eventually. As you develop your skills, so does your taste in tools. Check out festools web site and you might get real excited. Unfortunately you will have a lot of people bash festool due to the prices. Usually these bashers never used the tools The best part about buying festool as a beginner is you are buying a system that coordinates together and you are not spending money twice. example I have 2 porter cable routers that I though I liked until I got the Festool Routers. So I have spent money three times to get the great Router, instead of getting the great router and spending money once.
Also I rarely use the band saw, but when I need it, I need it. Other people it is their most used tool. Who's right?

[glenn bradley]

As you anticipated, responses will be as varied as we who respond. Let me relate what I have done that had to be speedily re-done (read wasted money):

$100 contractor's TS - Not really a mistake but, I could've spent my money more wisely. I spent around $300 on add-ons and doo-dads to try to bring the saw to a level that would not create more wa$ted material than furniture parts. With the addition of a good fence, machined pulleys and link belt, PALs, DC modifications, 3 high quality blades, a couple of sleds, etc. I achieved my goal (the 90# sack of cement in the base for mass really help with stability during cuts). For a few hundred more I could have had a usable machine right out of the box and saved a boat-load of time. Aligning a low grade machine is torture.

Cheap router - more vibration that I cared for. Pretty much sold on Milwaukee now but there are many quality routers out there for not that much more than a cheap one.

Cheap benchtop DP - There are very nice benchtop DP's out there. They take up just as much room as a floor model but, if you go benchtop, get a good one.

$80 bandsaw - Got rid of it when I got a 17", realized I'd goofed and picked up a 10" to replace it for smaller work. A single quality 14" saw will do most of what most of us need to do. The price range is frightening ;-)

Bench top jointer - Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha . . . . that joke was on me. Got an 8" now.

I am sure there are many other rookie moves I have more than paid for. Thanks to the experience of the folks here and on other forums I have not made a bonehead buy in years. Thanks everybody, I don't say it enough. In closing I guess I would say that I've learned that one quality tool (not necessarily the most expensive) costs much less than a cheap one that ends up in a drawer.

I thought my shoulder plane was expensive; it has been one of the best values I own. There are others and you will find yours. You don't have to buy Festool to get a good jigsaw but I wouldn't expect much from a B&D. Just take what you learned from your multi-lathe buying experience and apply it here ;-)

[Dan Friedrichs]

If I were in your position, I would buy:

1) The Sawstop PCS (the newest model, which is cheaper but still a full cabinet saw), for about $3k

2) A 8" jointer. If new, I'd buy a Grizz.

3) A lunchbox planer such as the DW734 or DW735

4) A 14" Delta (or "clone") bandsaw.

5) A good router or two.


These tools would hold their value well and wouldn't be a waste of money while on your way to better tools.

Don't waste your money at Home Depot, though - if you can't find quality tools on the used market, you can get much better value than what's available at HD.

[Rick Potter]

I agree pretty much with Dan on the choices. I also concur with the recommendation to build a router table. You can start with a verrry basic one, then then decide what you really need. By the way, it is pretty easy to joint on a router table.

About the table saw, if money is a concern may I recommend a used contractor type Craftsman saw (this is where the screams start). You should be able to find a very nice one for under $200, use it till you decide to get a cabinet saw, then sell it for the $200....no loss. My dad built beautiful mantels with his.

If this sounds good to you, look for one with the motor hanging out the back on a belt, with cast iron wings and at least a 1 HP motor. Check the arbor by wiggling the blade sideways....no play. Run it, and make sure the adjustments for angle and up and down work smoothly. Stay away from the rust buckets, there are thousands of these out there, and I guarantee you will find one on Craigs list within a month.

Upgrade it with a Gates segmented belt, or a link belt, and get a set of PALS from Inline. These are cheap, and allow you align the saw quickly and accurately.

Table saw, router, band saw, DeWalt 735 planer and jointer in that order for me.

Hope this helps.

Rick Potter

[Lance Norris]

For my answer... the bandsaw is used more than my TS. If I was starting over, I would make do with only a bandsaw. Dont misunderstand, I use my TS, but could do everything I do with a bandsaw and circular saw and guide rail. After that, a jointer and planer are very helpful.

[Billy Chambless]

For my answer... the bandsaw is used more than my TS. If I was starting over, I would make do with only a bandsaw. Dont misunderstand, I use my TS, but could do everything I do with a bandsaw and circular saw and guide rail. After that, a jointer and planer are very helpful.

Ditto.

Actually, I did start over, and the only stationary machines I use are a 17" bandsaw and a lunchbox planer -- unless the dust collector and air filter count as "machines".

There are dozens, of not hundreds, of variable involved in choosing tools, so the answer is usually very individual.

With that said, I think Joshua should get a Sawstop cabinet saw AND at least a 17" bandsaw. ;)

[Jacob Reverb]

Don't forget a good machinist's combo square and 6" rule (Starrett) and some various bar stock for cutting joints.

[Jerome Hanby]

On the Table saw/router table. If you use a wing on the table saw or the router, you can look for a good table saw with a less than stellar fence (hopefully would save you some bucks) and buy the Incra Joinery system for the table saw and get double duty from it with the router!

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I routed a recess, reinforced the wing and made my SS extension wing into a router table. Now I need to make a sacrificial fence. Dust collector....

[Paul Johnstone]

I have used a contractor's saw for 15 years and never felt the need to upgrade it, even though I have the financial means to do so (if I really wanted to). A shark guard is a great upgrade to any table saw.

If you want to "buy once", I'd suggest getting a nice 8" jointer and a floor standing planer too. Those are the big items to get you started.
Edit: oh yeah, a router and a homemade router too is an excellent suggestion.

You can buy a drill press, spindle sander, drum sander, and bandsaw later.
I'd recommend buying a floor standing drill press vs a desktop.
Actually, you can watch the used list for those. You may want to get a Kreg jig if you are building cabinents. It makes it so much easier.

[David Parker]

Hi Joshua,

Interesting thread. I'm a beginning woodworker who, like you, got started by turning (also relatively new at that). My Jet 1642 EVS 2 HP lathe was my first piece of equipment. I soon bought a bandsaw with a 12 inch resaw capacity to help make my blanks (I got the Rikon 10-325 and like it). I next made the mistake of taking a few introductory woodworking classes at my local Woodcraft store. It put the notion in my head that I'd also really enjoy woodworking so I bought a 6" jointer (Rikon 20-110) and a thickness planer (DeWalt DW735). The planer is really nice. I like my jointer, but I think jointers are pretty generic and I'd go with the best price. The jointer and planer let you dimension your own wood and make sure everything is square and true. Also, for safety, you really should joint an edge straight prior to cutting on the table saw. I'm making due with a small bench top drill press, although a larger one would be nice. I plan to build a nice router table and am currently using a benchtop model with a good router.

I toyed with not buying a table saw, since my space is really limited. While I might be able to get by with a guided circular saw system, for less money I ended up buying the Ridgid R4511 hybrid saw on sale for $450. I'm glad I did as this is a great saw for the money. Once I'm sure I will be doing this for the next 20 years, I may upgrade to a SawStop for the extra peace of mind, but the majority of the safety comes from a riving knife and using proper technique.

Dave

P.S. - I forgot to mention dust collection and control. Safety has been a priority with me in all my purchases. I bought a Delta 50-760 dust collector when I purchased my bandsaw and it works great for all my equipment. I just move the hose to the machine I'm using and laid out my shop so this would be easy to accomplish. I also have a wall-mounted Jet AFS-1000B air cleaner to help clean the air. I keep my basement shop under negative air pressure using an outside ducted vent with variable speed fan. This keeps any dust or fumes from escaping into the rest of the house and works extremely well.

[Mike Cruz]

You have a lot of great answers already. I was planning on passing on answering, but I'm waiting on some things to print, so I have a few minutes...

My two cents:

6" jointer... you HAVE to flatten a board BEFORE throwing it through a planer.

Planer...you will go nuts buying preplaned stuff at the local borg and/or cry every time you pay a sawmill to plane it for you...and cry when you get it home and realize they didn't do as nice a job as you would have.

Table Saw... contractor saw/hybrid will work. Cabinet saws are better.

14" bandsaw (or bigger)... resawing, curves, the list is endless.

Drill press... you will need perfectly straight/perfectly spaced holes for some of your projects...something a handheld drill can't give you.

Dust collector... lots of piping.


I think the real big issue here is that with all these tools comes a HUGE learning curve. Think back to when you started turning...what you knew then and what you know now. Now, think of all these tools and what it will take to be as proficient will all of them.

Good luck, I mean it. This should be a REALLY exciting time for you!

Oh, yeah, used vs new. Hey, if you can afford it, new...no brainer. But if $ is an issue, there is a lot of good used stuff out there, just be careful that you aren't getting a lemon. Maybe being able to take someone with you when you go buy them would be helpful. Even if they aren't woodworkers, someone who is an excellent mechanic understands tools. They can at least be a useful set of eyes from a mechanical perspective. Okay, I'm gonna get some flack here for saying this, but it is my opinion, not gospel: Grizzly, Powermatic, Jet, etc...all fine machines. I would stay away from Craftsman, Ryobi, and the "harry homeowner" brands. That said, I have a Ridgid TS and BS and like them both just fine. I would like bigger and better some day, but both are descent pieces. (And THAT said, I souped up my BS so much, that one could argue that I didn't like the factory machine and only like it because of the changes I've made...my point, the basic machine is good.)

Still printing....

[Jacob Mac]

Three things I have learned as I put together my shop FWIW:

1. Don't overlook dust collection. You want to form a plan for this from the very beginning. I didn't, and I really wish I would have. You don't want to be breathing a bunch of dust, and you don't want to spend your time cleaning it up either. Routers can make a terrible mess, so think through dust collection;

2. If you can't afford a jointer, you can always go with a hand plane and a lunch box planer. Do some searches, and you can find ways to build sleds for your planer, hand plane, buy S3S lumber etc. In other words, you don't have to spend a ton of money to get going; and

3. Buy tools as your project demands, not before. That makes buying tools easier on the wallet.

[Mike Cruz]

Jacob is right on the dust collection issue. The best thing you can do is run your dust collection throughout the shop for where machinery will/might be...not where stuff is now. My shop plans have changed a bunch of times from conception on paper, to repositioning equipment, to getting equipment that I didn't think I was going to get/have. So just run pipe and cap off ends, that way when you get a machine and put it in place, your headache isn't "putting in a tee".

You know the women's motto..."buy the shoes, the dress will come"? Well it applies to WW's too..."run the dust collection pipes, the equipment will come". :D

[Nathan Callender]

I got into ww (seriously) less than a year ago, or at least I should say that I started buying big machines less than a year ago (I made do with portable tools for a while), and I have a table saw (contractor R3660) and a benchtop planer (TP3100) and router (craftsman POS). I'm doing cabinets with just this, and it's working so far. I do wish I had a jointer some times but I bought all s2s wood and I can take out minor warps and cups with the planer and edge joint on the table saw.

I love the TS, but it's weakness is dust collection. Were I to do it again, I would get a hybrid, like the Ridgid R4550. I would also appreciate the granite top (my cast iron top has rusted like crazy this summer, even with care). Since I work in a garage, having the TS mobile is a big deal.

The Ridgid planer I have is also great, but very loud. If I were to do it again, I'd look for a planer with an induction motor and a helical cutterhead, or possibly a jointer/planer combo.

The router, well, it's great for hand held work. When I'm finished with this project, I'll be getting a small shaper. Again, induction motor... quiter and actually rated properly.

A bandsaw would be really useful, and I can see myself getting one in short order. Probably a 17" model. I've resawed enough wood on the TS to know it's not a fun task. Although, there are some who could use a bandsaw in leiu of a table saw, I think that I would have a hard time giving up the TS. I think both are needed for a well equiped shop.

Dust collector - I got a cheap portable bag unit from PSI. Were I to do it again, I would get the 1.5HP or 2HP model from HF and add a thein separator and cannister to it. Unfortunately, I wanted to put it under the right side of the table saw, so a vertical setup didn't work for me.

BTW, don't forget the hand tools. Just as important.

[Thomas Pender]

I agree strongly with the bandsaw, jointer, planer, router(s), and dust collection advice. These are the guts. You can eventually graduate to hollow chisel mortisers, lifting router tables, shapers, sanders, etc. However, also do not ignore a good bench - it is as much a tool as anything. Also, good hook rules and a Starret Square.

I also recommend you stay away from the the Neanderthal forum (tongue in cheek). I did not and now I have really nice planes, chisels, and other handtools that I can use, do use, and am constantly sharpening. It is a real slippery slope. Otherwise, once you have been to the LV and LN booths at a woodshow, you will be in trouble.

[Philip Johnson]

You have already discovered that quality tools make a difference and are a joy to use. So buy a tool once buy the best you can afford and you will be happy with it.

Up until a few days ago I would have said a good cabinet saw is the main tool and center of my shop. I then read a few post on here about people replacing their table saws with a bandsaw. I thought they were full of bs a bandsaw can never make a nice straight cut. Go check out the videos on the minni max website on the mm16. I can now see how a quality band saw could in fact replace a table saw, sorry to the guys I thought were full of bs. With your lathe and turning a good band saw may be more useful then a tablesaw to you, that is a decision you will have to make. But at any rate you need something good to cut wood either a band saw or table saw or both. As far as that 90 dollar saw I pay 125 dollars for sawblades I would not have much faith in it being a quality tool. Buy a used powermatic 66 or other cabinet saw and you will be set for life.

A good planner and jointer go hand and hand one is not as useful as they are together. I consider an 8 inch jointer to be the minimum and recently bought a 12 inch and wonder how I got by with a 8 inch seems I have a lot of 11 inch boards lately. I would buy a decent planner in the 15 to 20 inch size. If new is not in the budget I would be looking at craigslist for some used deals.

Those 3 main tools will get you going, from there you can add a drill press and sanders and what ever else you find you need. Don.t forget to save a few thousand for a stop at the Festoo store and blades' dado blades and routers and sanders.

its fun to spend others money