Question from a square woodworker

[Brian Kent]

I keep on reading that turners can turn wet wood - turn it as soon as possible before it dries and checks. What stops the wood from checking once it has been turned? Does the thin wall change the equation of how drying effects surrounding wood?

Brian

A someday, possible, in another era, just for handles and table legs, future round woodworker.

And maybe a bowl.



or a plate.





or a couple of vases.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Brian,

A lot of turners cut and seal bowl blanks from green cut logs.

They then rough turn a bowl from the blanks. Typically they rough turn leaving the thickness equivalent to 10% of the bowl diameter. SO...10" bowl...1" thickness.

At that point is where the "magic" and "voodoo" begins...some use a DNA soak followed by a month to 6 months in a paperbag before finish turning.

Some use a liquid dishwashing detergent soak followed by a similar drying period as discussed above.

Some use boiling the blanks....followed by a drying period as above....

Some turn natural edged bowls and regular bowls ...they may try to dry them using microwave oven...or hair dryers.....or just let them warp, crack and check.

Seldom does any method result in 100% success rate.

There are a number of highly skilled turners, one of whom I know, that believe in cutting the wood only during the winter when the sap is out of the tree and only using stump wood...no branch wood...to get the desired results.

I've tried some of the above and had mixed success. I live in a very arrid climate and as a result things crack very quickly here. I think everyone has to find what works for them and stick with it.

[Denis Puland]

Brian
The answer is Yes!

Denis

[Brian Kent]

Ken, I assume DNA is De-natured alcohol and not Deoxyribonucleic acid. I mean, we all have DNA but it's sort of hard to get it out of our systems and rub it on bowls.

[Jim Underwood]

So you're a square sort of shape? Not round?:p

I'm trying to imagine a square woodworker? :D

And don't worry, if you start turning, sooner or later you'll certainly rub your DNA on your work. :rolleyes:

Seriously, on the drying question, the standard processing method is to take the blanks from the log, leaving any of the pith behind, rough turn the blanks to 10% of diameter leaving no sharp edges (that will dry too quickly), wrap the blanks in newspaper (to dry slowly), store in a fairly cool dry place, then finish turn them 6-12 months later. At this point they should be stable enough not to move too noticeably.

Unless you like the effect of warped wood. Green turners who like this will typically turn to a thin consistent thickness and allow it to dry naturally. There are some methods of drying that will help keep a piece from cracking such as denatured alcohol (dna) or liquid soap drying method mentioned above.

Hope you take the plunge. It's a wonderful hobby.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ken, I assume DNA is De-natured alcohol and not Deoxyribonucleic acid. I mean, we all have DNA but it's sort of hard to get it out of our systems and rub it on bowls.

That's the one!

[Brian Kent]

I get it Jim. I bleed all over my work and it dries sooner. 6 months later I am out of the hospital and can finish the job. That's easy to remember.

Also, "pith". Is that the soft, spongy part of wood under the bark or at the center, or is it something else I don't know about?

One of the fascinating parts of woodworking is that I have been entertained by this stuff for the last 3-1/2 years and I know that there are entire fields of woodworking I haven't even touched (let alone trying specific furniture styles and kinds of furniture that are still entirely new to me.)

I've never touched a lathe. I've never carved anything but joints. Never laminated a curve. It's like whole new hobbies ripe for the picking in the future.

[Angie Orfanedes]

It is much easier to turn green wood - so even novice turners like me feel like they know what they are doing. You get:
(1) Long curly shavings, and a lot of them.
(2) A spray of the wood's wetness hitting you in the face (or preferably the faceshield).
(3) An aroma of the wet wood, that makes you feel like a real woodsman (doesn't that sound romantic?).

When the bowl has dried it is much harder to to turn, because less moisture means more strength in those wood fibers holding together.

My beginning efforts have been to wet turn, DNA soak, wrap in newspaper with opening to inside of bowl, and dry for three weeks - 50% success rate on no-cracking. But I am still learning.

Who knows what keeps the bowl from checking. I think the alcohol (DNA) soak rapidly displaces much of the wood's moisture, and then the air drying allows the remainder to evacuate slowly enough for the wood fibers to move (contract across grain) without separating from each other (cracking)...at least 50% of the time, anyway.

Oh, and one more thing, as my bowl efforts occasionally result in a flying saucer ...or a flying bowl... I think I have left some of my DNA attached to my wood turning efforts.

[Brian Kent]

Angie, I think the flying bowl stories are why I'll be happy starting with a mini or midi lathe for tool handles and spindles. I want to get pretty secure before I send large objects spinning wildly.

Yes, I do plan on wearing full face protection. It's not just to be smart and safe either. Wet wood chips and ribbons up my nose and down my neck just don't sound so fun. The turner's smock, or whatever you call it with the high neck and closed cuffs looks like a good idea.

And while we are at it, it just looks like you could get hurt by what you don't know if you get to cocky as a beginner. If that tool rest is to far out and the gouge catches on the spinning wood, doesn't that send the tool handle towards your head pretty darned fast.

I bet this is an area where a couple of starter classes would be good for a beginner to be safe.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Brian - turnings crack because of the difference in the rate of drying between the inside and outside of the wood. We have found that roughing out your turning to a consistent thickness really helps in reducing checks. You also want to make sure you do not leave any sharp edges on your turning as the wood will begin to dry along the sharp edge first and then crack. DNA helps some of us with the drying process - but the key is controlling the drying process so that the moisture loss happens at a steady rate.

When starting out in turning - you will have 1000s of questions!! Best advice would be to find a local turning club and attend a few meetings. You will make a lot of new friends and save yourself the agony of trying to reinvent the wheel when it comes to turning.

Have fun with it!

[alex carey]

I'll just make a prediction now. In 1 month you'll have a mini and in 6 months you'll have a full size.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Come on guys.....use some different lures and retrieve techniques....I think we got one biting here!:eek::rolleyes::D

[Gary Herrmann]

As a former flatwork only kinda guy, I'll tell you right now your flatwork projects will languish once you start turning. You'll go for periods where the only flatwork you do is to support the turning jones.


Turning a pen doesn't take long. I"ll get right back to that other project. Really.

I just want to try this new grind I put on my bowl gouge.

I just want to try turning xxx wood.

I wonder what will happen if I try yyy technique.

Turned boxes look neat. Gotta try a few of those.

I wonder what hollowforms are like.

Cool. That guy turned zzz material. I need to try that.

And on and on...

[Scott Conners]

The short answer is yes, the thin walls change how the wood dries.

The long answer boils down to this:
Wood cracks because is shrinks as it dries. In thick pieces, the outside dries more quickly than the inside, and as the outside shrinks, it is stretched around the core of wet wood that isn't changing shape inside. Once there is enough force, the wood splits.
Turning the center of the log (pith) away and removing much of the material lets the wood dry evenly. Wrapping the wood in paper bags, soaking it in various potions, etc all just serve to help the wood dry more evenly or slowly, letting the moisture in the piece drop at an even pace through the whole piece.

[Brian Kent]

Movements of the universe leading towards turning:

With my garage storage cabinets almost done, there will be more room.

Those little Rockler mini lathes only cost $199. A couple bucks for some tools and "Hey, cheap hobby!"

Wouldn't it be cheaper to make handles for my files instead of buying them at $3 each?

Hey honey, how about if I get a little lathe and turn Christmas tree ornaments for this year's gifts? What? Oh, about $199 plus a couple of tools.

I'm pretty sure that after a drill press the lathe is the only other tool I'll ever need to buy.

Why is the concrete floor moving and getting kind of vortex-shaped?

Nah, this little one will be fine. I don't know why those other guys need some big ol' expensive lathe. I just need this cheap little one. Plus some tools and a face mask and smock. Hey, what's a chuck?

[Bill Bolen]

That's the way Brian. We all started out with those reasons and sure enough they worked. Now about that upgrade to a bigger lathe so I can do bigger turnings@ Wouldn't you really love a big bowl for......Bill..

[Brian Effinger]

Those little Rockler mini lathes only cost $199. A couple bucks for some tools and "Hey, cheap hobby!"

Now that's funny!!!! :D:D:D

[Brian Kent]

No, I think a more realistic approach is, "Hey, so it costs $10,000! It's still half the cost of a good bass boat."

ps. I can throw around a number like $10,000 because at the present money is no object. None. Whatsoever.

[Ron McKinley]

in Riverside, the 3rd Sunday at 1:00pm at the Janet Goeske Center and you will see a turning demonstration plus a lot of Challenge pieces and Show 'n Tell pieces.

http://inlandwoodturners.com/

Come on out. You'll enjoy it.......Ron

[Jim King]

This article may be interesting. I boil everything I turn as here in the Amazon we dont have DNA and all the other toys you have up there. This works great and little or no loss.
Patience is everything.

Boiling Wood Article 2 - Boiling For Dollars

Boiling your bowls for a better success rate –
Stephen D. Russell
Since I first published my original boiling protocol a few years ago, I have met hundreds of turners who are boiling at my weekly demonstrations around the United States. In addition, I have received hundreds more emails from turners around the world who are successfully using my boiling protocol, to reduce the checking from drying in their green wood bowl/platter etc, roughouts.
While many turners call me "Dr. Boil" these days and are thrilled with the successful drying characteristics of their boiled pieces, I have also met and received emails from turners who have not achieved the same high level of success.
In each of these instances, the turner had allowed an error, or multiple errors , to be introduced into the boiling protocol which resulted in their less than successful outcome. Through this posting, I hope to clarify some issues on boiling and to remove counter-productive practices from your boiling procedures.
You must think of the boiling protocol as a formula, not a recipe! Ingredients or procedures can be easily substituted in recipes, but not in formulas! If you change one thing in a formula, you will get another outcome most of the time. Therefore, you must follow the protocol EXACTLY, or you will not achieve the success the protocol is capable of delivering.
Please let me say up front that I'm not on a crusade to get every turner to boil their bowls... I simply wish to disseminate the information to those who may wish to try the protocol, or increase the efficiency of their existing boiling programme. If you do not wish to boil your bowls, by all means do not! You are the master of your corner of the universe, so your opinion is all that matters. If you think boiling is hogwash, that's ok by me.
For the rest of you who are now boiling, or might like to try it, I offer the following tips to insure boiling success in your studio.... As a current update: I have now boiled more than 4,200 bowls/platters, representing 46 different species. My success rate remains the same - 96% to 98.5% or better of all boiled pieces dry with no cracks whatsoever. This overall success rate has been achieved by hundreds and hundreds of turners around the world in 21 countries with their local timbers as well.
The protocol does indeed work, but you must follow it exactly... If you decide to change the protocol and fail, please tell your friends that YOUR version of the protocol failed, not that the boiling protocol itself does not work. Nothing is perfect on this side of heaven, so you will have some failures with boiling, even when done correctly. However, when done correctly, these failures will average only 1.5% to 4% or less, per one hundred pieces, depending on the specific species.
Tips for Better Boiling:
1.) My basic boiling protocol requires 1 hour (60 minutes) of active medium (not a simmer) boiling for every 1" of wall thickness. That means you MUST measure your pieces to insure you are boiling for the correct time. Ignore any tennon/spigot thickness less than 3/4" and measure the belly, or side-wall of the bowls, or platters to determine the correct boiling cycle time required.
2.) There can be no downward variance in the one hour per inch of wall thickness rule - NONE. If you boil for less than one hour per inch of wall thickness, you will not achieve the well-documented success rate of 96% or better of boiled pieces, drying with no checking.
3.) If a batch of bowls/platters to be boiled includes mixed thickness walls, you MUST set your boil cycle time for the thickest piece in the batch! For example: If you batch contains 1.0", 1.25" 1.5" and 2.0" inch thick walls, you must set your boil cycle for the 2.0" wall (i.e. the pot would boil for 2 hours).
4.) Boiling longer than the protocol requires will not compromise the protocol (it will not help either), but boiling less than the required time will insure failure. As a side note, I have over boiled one inch thick wall pieces for more than eight hours with no ill effects. Just make sure to not under boil!
5.) When placing bowls into the boiling water you MUST wait until the water returns to a boil, before starting your timing cycle. This is CRITICAL! The bowls/platters etc, MUST receive 60 minutes per inch of ACTIVE BOIL! Placing cold bowls into boiling water stops the boiling process. If you start your time cycle before the water returns to a boil, you will not be getting the required 60 minutes of active boil, per inch of wall thickness.
6.) All pieces to be boiled MUST be submerged in the boiling water for the protocol to work. You must prevent any timber with a specific gravity less than 1.0 from floating during the boiling cycle. This is easily accomplished by fashioning a concrete rebar, or equivalent wire grate inside the top of your boiling pot, which is slightly smaller than the diameter of the pot. By placing a sufficient weight on this grate, all pieces will be prevented from floating during the boiling cycle. If the pieces float during the boiling cycle, the protocol will not work!
7.) Whilst turning a batch of bowls for the boiling pot, insure that any turned pieces waiting their turn in the boil pot, do not dry in the open air prior to boiling. I use a plastic tarp to cover the pieces, or place them into a plastic trashcan with a tight fitting lid until there is enough to fill the pot. Boiling will NOT glue pre-existing cracks back together! If you place pieces into the boiling water that have pre-existing cracks, they will keep those cracks when dried. This is not a failure of the boiling protocol, as it will never glue preexisting cracks back together.
8.) When you remove the bowls from the boiling water, you MUST protect the bowls from rapid drying of the surface fibers. My preferred method is to place the pieces onto the floor (my studio has a concrete floor which is covered with epoxy) in a cone, or pyramid shape with alternating rims and tennons. This is then covered with a cloth canvass tarp, or old bath towels. The boiled bowls CANNOT be left in the open air! They cannot be covered with anything that does not allow the water vapour to escape. At this point we're trying to remove any excess water so we can bag the boiled pieces without soaking the paper bag. If you do not have a cloth tarp, you can purchase old bath towels at places like Goodwill, or other charity resale shops for a few cents per towel. DO NOT USE tarps, or towels with holes in them unless you want to become very proficient at inlay techniques!
9.) The bowls are allowed to air dry for three days under the fabric cover, with an inverting cycle every day (top up one day, then bottom up, then top up again) for three days. At the conclusion of the three flip-flops, the bowls are removed from underneath the fabric cover and are placed into paper grocery bags. The boiled pieces remain in the paper bags until they reach equilibrium moisture content. Paper bagging is the best environment to dry the post-boiled pieces in for most people.
10.) The bowls can also be waxed and then dried in the open air, but I prefer to place them into the paper bags. It takes less time and keeps the cost of using the wax emulsion down. (The two main types of wax emulsions available include Anchorseal and Mobil Cer- M. Anchorseal is paraffin based colloidal solution for logs and lumber. It contains paraffin, water and a surfactant and is milkywhite in appearance. Mobil-Cer M is a microcrystalline wax based coating. It contains microcrystalline wax, water and a surfactant and is also milky-white in appearance). I'm nearly through experimenting with using Tyvek bags in lieu of the paper bags. Initial results look VERY good, however, I will not be ready to publish the Tyvek results for another few months. (Tyvek is a specialty film developed by Dupont that only allows moisture vapour transmission in one direction only and is used extensively as a house wrap prior to adding brick or siding). Advantages of Bagging, Boiling and Summary Conclusions...
1.) The paper bag creates a microclimate inside the bag of higher moisture content that the outside ambient atmosphere. As the water vapour moves out of the bowl, it is prevented from rapid dissipation into the ambient atmosphere, because it must first pass through the Kraft paper bag barrier wall, which slows the process down a bit, vs. drying in the open air. In addition, the bag prevents any drafts from drying the exterior of the piece too quickly, preventing steep moisture gradients from forming.
2.) Why boil? On average, boiling will reduce checking in boiled pieces to 1.5% to 4.0% or less per hundred, depending on the species. This success rate is not only from my studio's efforts, but has also been achieved by hundreds andhundreds of turners around the world with their local species. At last count, more than 500 hundred turners in 21 countries are boiling their bowls using my original protocol. There are no doubt many more, but this is the amount I'm aware of currently.
3.) Boiling will decrease drying time on average of up to 50%. For example, if a non-boiled piece takes 6 months to air dry, a boiled piece of the same timber will typically reach EMC (equilibrium moisture content) in three months or less.EMC is defined as the point at which the moisture content in the timber is at equilibrium with the ambient atmosphere. In the Houston, Texas area, that usually means bowls dried in unheated/non air-conditioned areas (such as the garage) will usually achieve a moisture content of 12%. If you wish it to dry lower than 12% in Houston, you will have to alter the drying environment, i.e. move the pieces into an area that is heated and/or air conditioned, or use another method. This will reduce the moisture content even further. You can find the average moisture content for your area on the Forest Products Laboratory website.at http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/
4.) Boiling will reduce warp on average 5%. Although this is not significant, the protocol does produce an average reduction in associated warp of 5%.
5.) Unwanted guests in the bowls, i.e. worms, bugs and other critters with a face only a mother could love (and I have my doubts if even a mother could love a Mesquite grub worms face) are usually taken care of. that is they become soup, if you can find any remains that is. Colour Loss in Boiled Pieces I'm frequently asked about colour loss in boiled pieces. Having boiled more than 4,200 pieces, from 46 different species, I can well attest to the fact that I see no difference in core colour loss in boiled pieces. There is in fact some leaching of the surface colour (about 1/16" of an inch), but below that the colour is normal. Remember we're boiling rough outs, usually with a wall thickness of at least ¾" or 1" or more usually, so the trivial loss on the surface is irrelevant. Remember that you will have to true the dried blank up to finish turn it anyway, so the 1/16" of colour loss would have been turned away anyway during the truing/finish turning process. I have compared hundreds of pieces that were boiled vs. non-boiled pieces FROM THE SAME LOG and have found no colour loss in the core of the wood. I hope this helps you to achieve better success in your boiling programme. As always, I remain available to assist you if you would like to contact me. "Woodturning with Steven D. Russell" now available! More than 93,000 words, and 500+ photos in 21 articles, on CD-ROM $19.99 + postage, email for details.
Steven D. Russell
steverussell@houston.rr.com (steverussell@houston.rr.com)
Eurowood Werks Woodturning Studio
The Woodlands, Texas

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[Brian Kent]

Jim,

I haven't even read the article. I'm stuck on one word - Peru! What do you do in Peru? Born there? Work there? Is it beautiful where you live?

Brian

[Jim King]

Brian:

My wife and I are from Northern Wisconsin and have lived in the Amazon about 25 years with the first 10 in Brazil and Colombia and the last 15 in the upper Amazon of Peru. We export tropical woods to the States and now retiring here.

[William Payer]

Jim,

Those last two pictures (the blanks!) --talk about woodturning porn!:D

Any chance of a group buy for SMC members?

[Jim King]

If you all want to get together and buy I would be happy to get a shipment together. I could also send a crate to Sawmill Creek for them to auction off.

[Gary Herrmann]

I'm in on the group buy!

Brian, I have used boats, golf and casino trips as excuses before. As in, at least I'm not ...your choice of excuse here...

[Steve Frederick]

Group buy? I'm in, if it happens!

[Brian Novotny]

Depending on the wood I wet turn to completion then immediately seal all parts with spray lacquer. I seldom have problems with cracking.....and if I do, I inlay with crushed stone.

[Mike Golka]

No, I think a more realistic approach is, "Hey, so it costs $10,000! It's still half the cost of a good bass boat."

ps. I can throw around a number like $10,000 because at the present money is no object. None. Whatsoever.

That's the attitude!! I started out like you, a flat wood kind of guy and 2 years ago bought my first lathe. It was a Craftex 12-42 and cost about $400.00, added a starter tool set for another $100.00. 1 year later upgraded to a Oneway 1642 with accessories (just over $5300.000). Just recently bought a thickness sander to support my segmenting habbit and am constantly adding to the arsonal of turning weapons. "Money is no object" is deffinetly the right attitude, you'll make a great turner. When the turner who won the lottery was asked what he would do with his winnings he replied "probably turn 'till it's all gone".:D

[Jake Helmboldt]

As a former flatwork only kinda guy, I'll tell you right now your flatwork projects will languish once you start turning. You'll go for periods where the only flatwork you do is to support the turning jones.


Turning a pen doesn't take long. I"ll get right back to that other project. Really.

I just want to try this new grind I put on my bowl gouge.

I just want to try turning xxx wood.

I wonder what will happen if I try yyy technique.

Turned boxes look neat. Gotta try a few of those.

I wonder what hollowforms are like.

Cool. That guy turned zzz material. I need to try that.

And on and on...


Gary speaketh the truth!

[Brian Kent]

Not talking reality. Just thinkin'. Just someday. (actually, just sitting at home with a chest cold with not enough to think about).

If I were someday going to get a very well-priced good for a lifetime lathe, a simple but excellent tool set, whatever I would keep using forever even if I got more variety later… what would I buy.

For perspective…
I am very happy with my Grizzly 513x2 bandsaw (but I don't want a Laguna).
I love my Grizzly 1023l Cabinet Saw, and do not wish that I has paid triple or a Sawstop.
That's the kind of range I look for in tools - the best for the buck that I won't want to trade in later.

What would I want in a very reasonably priced excellent lathe, assuming I did not find a killer deal used?