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View Full Version : Sawmill Trip - Some Clarification



Bill Grumbine
09-06-2004, 11:21 AM
Good morning all

I had no idea that my attempt at humor would blow up into a full scale debate on the state of our educational system, or open up old wounds in the war between the disciplines. I would like to clarify some of my actions, statements, etc, so that hopefully some of you will feel a little bit better about my original intent.

First, people have the right to wear what they want, as long as it is not indecent. Of course, many would debate even what is decent. A lot of what I saw bordered on that, but so be it. That is the culture. However, there is a corollary that people need to wear what is appropriate, and there have been plenty of times when I have forgone a trip to the sawmill because I did not have the appropriate footwear (i.e. sandals). This is not really the responsibility of a first timer, but rather the responsibility of the one who is leading that first timer. In this case, I made the assumption that it was the professor who did not prepare the students with the proper warning and direction. That assumption was partially borne out at the end of our conversation when I suggested that she make mention of their wearing their "steel toed sandals". I got a nebulous reply that indicated to me that it might have been mentioned in passing, but maybe not even that.

As far as the state of our educational system, there are many excellent parents, teachers, and administrators in the system. Unfortunately, they seem to be in the minority any more. Anyone who is objective can see that the system is failing, but no one can point to any one cause. If anyone wants to understand it a little better, I suggest they read some history on the decline and fall of the Roman Empire. We are there folks. Our great advances in technology do not equate to advances in civilization or wisdom.

These kids were not prepared for the work they were doing. I do not care if they did or did not know how to calculate a board foot. What was very evident was that their basic math skills were lacking. Perhaps if they were in a liberal arts major we might excuse that, but these are elementary level skills. I know because I have been teaching every grade level from K-12 at some time or another for the past 10 years. Their lack of preparation goes way back past their current teacher. I do not know whose fault it is - their teachers, their parents, or themselves. Most likely it is a combination of all at some point of their education.

But anyway, back to the situation at hand. Any task requires a certain skill set. One cannot be expected to buy lumber if one has no idea whatsoever how to buy it. Their presence at that point in time was inappropriate given their level of preparation, regardless of whose fault it was. And why in the world are they going to make hand cut dovetails when they have not been taught how to buy the board they need to make them!?! That is like showing up to play in the band for Beethoven's 9th symphony without ever learning to play scales! How much extra work does it make for the people there to shepherd a bunch of people through the process of measuring each and every board, pulling it out, putting it back, so on and so forth. For one or two it is not a real hard thing, but when that number climbs to almost 20, that is a different story, especially when those customers have not a clue as to what they really want.

I could go on and on, but to wrap this up, I encountered a bunch of unprepared, pampered kids and one incompetent professor. I had some fun with the kids teaching them an impromptu lesson which should have been taught and absorbed long ago. I hope it helps them out some. I have been to school for many years and several degrees. This is not the first, and I suspect not the last incompetent professor I will meet. This was by no means a commentary on professors or college kids in general, just a humorous story and an observation on the passing scene. I know that it fueled a lot of debate, and got some tempers going. Some of the private email I got got my dander up a bit too. My apologies for that, for I did not mean to start a debate.

And finally, to address the comment on the old fat geezeers, that makes me laugh, because I am an old fat geezer, and I know that they will be old and fat someday too. When my own children deign to inform me of things I could not possibly know since I am old and never was young, I remind them that no matter where they go or what they do, I have already been there and experienced what they are finding new and exciting. I have been there and have no desire to return.

Bill

Paul Downes
09-07-2004, 8:43 PM
Bill, if you happen to read my post to your subject you will notice that I do not require any apology.
I would like to commend you for standing up and posting on the subject. It is my opinion that we Americans who value all that is good and just, should speak out whenever appropriate. I think it is valuable to raise debate about those things that are so important to the core values of what made this country great. While this is not a political forum, I believe that the values that typify what the Creek stands for need to be encouraged and talked about whenever possible. We are in a battle for the hearts and minds of our children and if we ignore what is perpetrated on our kids by the education system and the media in this country, then we can stew in the juices of the aftermath. Time spent teaching skills such as woodworking is way better than time in front of the boob tube. Social sensitivity and political correctness do NOT serve to make this country better. While I believe it is important to encourage kids to achieve and learn skills, I do not like the “you can be anything you want to be” mantra so popular in school. It simply flies in the face of common sense. I for one tell my kids; “find out what God has made you to be and do your best to obey and honor Him”.

Paul.

Ian Barley
09-07-2004, 9:03 PM
It is my opinion that we Americans who value all that is good and just, should speak out whenever appropriate. Paul.

That may be the case Paul but it is not what we do here. This is a place where we discuss woodworking and share ideas and knowledge that help to build a (international) community of woodworkers. Bill's story met those aims as did most of the responses it brought forward on this forum. I suspect that Bill's clarification was aimed mainly at the responses on another forum which got a little more heated.

Stefan Antwarg
09-07-2004, 10:01 PM
Bill,

I hope you didn't feel that my post was attacking you. But, after reading your post here and the one addressed to me in the other, I feel I may have hit a nerve. So, am sorry if I did. I responded the way I did because your complaints about these girls probably could be said about me. Since I am not too good at head math, yet feel I am an intelligent person, I felt a need to defend them.

And to answer your question -
How would you respond if a kid showed up for your band but could not play scales?

I would teach them and tell them to go home and practice (assuming they knew how to properly practice).

Stefan

Greg Heppeard
09-07-2004, 11:14 PM
I don't think that anyone should be expected to do complicated math problems in their head. They should know how to use formulas to get to the correct solutions though. That's what it's all about anyway, isn't it, finding solutions to problems, being it life's problems or the problem of board footage? I think it's all in teaching the basics. There's a solution to everything, but finding the most advantageous, or correct solution is the hard part. OK, I’ll get off my philosophical soap box now. (I actually only had to correct 3 words with my spell checker) :eek: :D :rolleyes:

Brad Hammond
09-07-2004, 11:49 PM
i think this all just goes to show you that there's no subsitute for good ole fashion EXPERIENCE!! no matter what school, home school, university or community college one attends........

Mark Twain said " Common sense is the most uncommon thing."

cya
brad

Bill Grumbine
09-08-2004, 8:21 AM
Bill,

I hope you didn't feel that my post was attacking you. Stefan

Not at all Stefan, I just thought that there were some things you brought up that I should clarify. I am fully aware of the reaction of people being put on the spot and how their brain freezes up, how some people have some skills but not others, etc. This was a classroom situation though. Some of the replies I have gotten here and elsewhere seem to indicate that nothing should have been expected of these young ladies. Unfortuately, that is all too often the case. People rise to the standard which is expected of them.


I don't think that anyone should be expected to do complicated math problems in their head.

I don't think anyone should have to do complicated math in their heads either, but if this is complicated, then we are in big trouble. What would someone of this skill level do when faced with calculating mysteries like sales tax, or the appropriate tip for a waiter? Yesterday I took my youngest daughter bowling. We are incorporating it into our physical education program for our homeschool. I cannot find a bowling alley that has the old fashioned paper score sheets anymore. There is one more way of making math fun, keeping score for bowling, but not anymore. It probably won't be long before the miniature golf courses issue each player a card which they plug in at each hole which automatically counts the strokes of the club somehow so we don't have to add anymore either.

Bill

Matthew Poeller
09-08-2004, 9:39 AM
I am normally a lurker but I have very strong feelings on education so here is my post. I actually wrote a page yesterday and deleted it deciding not to post.

First off since I have not formally introduced myself on this forum but did on what I like to think of as the predecessor to this forum so here goes:

My name is Matthew Poeller, 25 years old. I have a bachelors of science in Mechanical Engineering and work for a fortune 500 company as a design engineer. I am currently attending school at night to complete my Masters in Business Administration. I have been wood working for two years now.

Now for the education stuff. 650 divided by 144 is relatively complicated math to do in your head. The last time that I rounded to get a close enough answer was the last time I was at the sawmill or at the store. I understand that this is important but it is not taught. I do not complete this type of math at my job or in my classes. The first time that I was ever taught shortcut math, that is breaking down the numbers to make them easier to compute in your head was by some of the foreign students that were in my classes in college. They would always yell out the answer while I was still writing down the number to multiply the long way. I approached one of the kids and asked him how he did that and he taught me. This is something that I was never taught when I was younger. I also found the same thing true when I got into calculus. All of the foreign students had already been exposed and I was struggling. I was in New York State (suburb of Buffalo) public schools when I was younger which are arguably some of the best in the nation too.

On another note I am just learning how to read at a decent rate of speed. Don’t get me wrong, I can read, but not as fast as I would like to. I took a test 2 weeks ago. I read at a speed that was just above average with 100% comprehension. That is not good enough though. 200 WPM is average rate of speed for reading. I bought a computer program to help me with my speed rate for $50 and I have double my rate in the past week. Only a $50 program and again something that I was never taught in school. (You can read. Good. But never addressed the rate a which I read. Bad.)

The math that is being taught in the schools is getting worse too. My father would is an elementary school teacher showed me New York State’s push towards something that was called “everyday math”. I looked at it and laughed. That is not what I need to be learning.

So now for the conclusion. Before anybody that is older says, “This is the new generation and these are the people that are going to be leading us and they cannot even add,” that person had better realize that THEY are the ones or at least they are in the same age group as the ones that are making the decisions for the children of today and the leaders of tomorrow. So if you think that the children are not being taught properly there are steps that you can take, supplement their education, go to a PTA meeting just get involved and let your voice be heard.

I am not accusing anyone of purposely raising stupid children but every child at your child’s school deserves the opportunity and take it upon yourself to help one of your children’s friends that are struggling or whose parents do not have enough time to help them. When they come home after school make them do their homework for an hour and as a reward extend their bedtime by a half hour to make up for the time.

I could go on for hours here but just remember when making broad generalized statements that your children, by in large, do not choose what is taught to them and they do not always know what is good for them so it is up to you to make good decisions. If you think there is something that needs to be taught, then teach it or seek out someone who can.

Oh ya, I still have trouble remembering how to calculate bf sometimes and I would put my higher math skills up against anyone.

If I offended anyone I am sorry but I thought I needed to say something since I think that this topic needed the perspective of someone who is younger and still in university.

Greg Heppeard
09-08-2004, 11:12 AM
:eek: Matthew :eek:

No, you really have hit on something. I believe that you are right about the responsibility of parents to help make sure that their offspring learn. What we are seeing (generally) today is the lack of parent involvement in the learning process. Over crowding of schools and under paid teachers are also playing a very large role in this process. I don't think there is an easy answer to this problem. It's too easy to point fingers and do nothing. I believe that most people take the easy way out. I don't mean to ruffle anyones feathers, but if anyone feels I've ruffled theirs, I'm sorry you feel that way.

Kurt Aebi
09-08-2004, 11:52 AM
Mathew,

I too am a design engineer by trade (Electrical for 10 years) and like you have a very high level math understanding and the "simple" arithmetic escapes my easy "in-the-head" calculating ability, but the skills are there burried under the 3rd order differentials, fourier transforms, etc. When I was working as a toolmaker in a small tool & die shop where I made stamping die sets, which you know as a Mechanical Engineer really have close tolerances and exceptional finishes requires a strong attention to details, that is what is missing in education - attention to details - granted it is forced upon th eschool systems by beurocrats (?sp?) not educators or parents as it really should. As you stated, it will only change when WE make the effort to change it.

Bill is just trying to point out that the mathematical foundation (so to speak) has not been built or fortified and as a woodworker, you should understand that you can't build anything on a substandard foundation.

As far as the school systems go, I am sure that you, like me depends upon performance & results to maintain our employment, but in many instances, teachers are not held to these simple standards due to "tenure" and other attempts in contracts to shield the dead wood from being set adrift and this dead wood puts a strain on school budgets that are overwhelmed by salaries and benefits (usually around here is 75-80% of the total expenditures) instead of materials for learning, which seem to require the parents to supply. How can you learn it there are no books or books in good condition.

Thanks for listening and I hope I have contributed towards the good and not to ruffling feathers.

We really need to voice our opinions in each of our neighborhoods to effect change! Get out there guys and get involved!

Chris Padilla
09-08-2004, 12:17 PM
Bill,

Topics go where they go and you can't control them nor should you apologize for where they go. You put out a few lines and we all read and feel something different from them. It is like trying to argue what a poet is trying to tell us with all the metaphors, personifications, and analogies. We will all get something different out of it and therefore react as such.

After all, you didn't simply write: What is 600/144? That should yield a simple answer. BTW, the way I do somewhat complicated math like that in my head is to estimate: 144 is close to 150; drop a zero from both 600 and 150 and one should recall that 15 times 4 is 60. 4 is darn close to the answer and will be a hair under the real number since one had to increase the denominator.

Anyway, I think in a group of kids not necessarily paying attention, no one really wanted to be the one to yell out an answer. Sometimes crowds are just like that. Me? I tend to be the noisy one in the crowd spewing out answers if I know them...and even if I don't...but that's me.... :)

Stefan Antwarg
09-09-2004, 6:52 AM
This was a classroom situation though. Some of the replies I have gotten here and elsewhere seem to indicate that nothing should have been expected of these young ladies.

Uh Oh! I can see it it now. At my next bowl turning leson you're going to throw out a surprise circumference problem. <h2>"QUICK - SAY IT! - AHHHHHHHHH </h2> -ala Sam Kinison


:) :)

Stefan

Bill Grumbine
09-09-2004, 9:24 AM
Uh Oh! I can see it it now. At my next bowl turning leson you're going to throw out a surprise circumference problem. <h2>"QUICK - SAY IT! - AHHHHHHHHH </h2> -ala Sam Kinison
:) :)

Stefan

Never in life Stefan, although I might ask you the velocity of a sparrow carrying a coconut! Here is a funny turning story if you like the humor of Sam Kinison (sudden yelling kind of thing)

A couple of years ago, a friend of mine came out to use my lathe to turn a gift for his boss at work. It was a billy club, and involved some skew work. He was having trouble with the skew, and asked me if I would give him a hand. So, I commenced to plane the long surface of the stick with the skew. The air of tension and concentration was very high, and as I got closer and closer to the end of the cut, he leaned over farther and farther over my shoulder until he was practically leaning on me. I guess he was concerned that I might make a mistake and cause him to start all over. As I got down to the very end, and the tension was at its height, I looked over my shoulder, right into his face, and yelled:


BANG!!!
I was not able to measure, but I am sure he came at least several inches off the floor. I was laughing so hard I could not see, and after he recovered his wits, he admitted that it might be a little funny. But, I never do that to people who have the tool in their hand! :D

Bill

Stefan Antwarg
09-09-2004, 5:24 PM
That's a good one!

Stefan

Tom Sweeney
09-09-2004, 8:28 PM
For a minute there I thought you were going to tell a different story about someone, at your shop, coming off the ground, though by more than a few inches :p