Sawstop Salesman Trashed Grizzly G0661 and Jet Pro Shop

[Ed Garrett]

I'm shopping for a TS. My criteria are: small footprint, strong mechanical parts, moderate power, precision, but lightweight enough to push up and down a ramp. I think that generally puts me in the hybrid category. My town has few woodworking retail options, but I recently visited a small independent shop on a trip to look over the Sawstop contractor on display. I was impressed with everything about this saw except for the protruding motor and open back/bottom. I told the shop owner I was also looking at the Grizzly G0661 and the Jet Pro Shop. Of course he's a salesman and wasn't going to say anything good about these saws, but I was surprised how hard he trashed them both.

Anybody have rebuttal to these (paraphrased/summarized) statements by the salesman:



The Jet Pro Shop would be a disappointment
If you buy a Grizzly, plan on replacing the bearings. The machine work alignment on Grizzly saws isn't quite right and Grizzly owners have to replace the bearings every few months.

Both statements struck me as inconsistent with thousands of posts I've read on SMC and other WW forums. Am I missing something?

Sincerely,
Ed Garrett
Tallahassee

[Matt Day]

I think you may have answered your own question: he's a Sawstop salesman. I would expect more from anyone in the ww'ing industry though.

[Matt Benton]

He is doing what he is paid to do: sell you a Sawstop.

If Grizzly machines, on average, required bearing changes anywhere close to every other month, they would have been out of business a long time ago.

I'm wondering how steep your ramp is. If its not to bad, a quality mobile base might allow you to get a better saw and still be able to move it (and when I say quality, I don't mean HTC, I mean something like Cary's example here):

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=71000&highlight=mobile+base

[Phil Thien]

His comments, esp. about Grizzly, smack of desperation and/or complete misunderstanding about how machines work.

[george wilson]

Some machine salesmen can be very arrogant. The worst ones I've seen are the Hegner scroll saw salesmen. Some act like they are God's gift to woodworking. I finally got a Hegner variable speed scroll saw,but it was VERY near given to me when Williamsburg broke up a behind the scenes manufacturing facility. All these walking beam saws go a little backwards and forwards,which "files" the edges of the very small work I might be doing. An old Delta goes straight up and down,and the blade is MUCH easier to change. The Hegner blades are a lot of trouble to change.

I don't know if any of those guys actually make anything.

[John Thompson]

The frist statement leaves grey area that could be discussed as asking "why" he states you wouldn't be satisfied but... the second comment of owners of Grizzlie's have to replace the bearings every few months tells the story!

Is the gentleman (and I may be using the term loosely here) a former new car salesman that found an opening as a WW machine salesman. I think he backed his-self in a corner on that and took you for being stupid enough to believe that without questioning the statement.

But.. I am not familar with the Grizzly hybrid so others that may be can chime in. I will say that I really think you should check the spec weights on both the hybrid and cabinet models as I suspect there isn't a great deal of difference that would be enough to influence me to go hybrid. Maybe.. maybe not? You may already have...

[tim young]

Never have liked talking with sales guys that bash other manaufacturers. I've always preferred they tell me what's great about their tool and send me to indepenant review that compares the various tools. Very refreshing when they genuinely want to see you get the right tool. There are a lot of very nice Hybrid saws on the market. I personally like the Powermatic and General saws. I don't recall if they make a hybrid. But I know they make a contractor style saw.

[Matthew Hills]

you should ask him about the craftsman saws that you see coming up on craigslist periodically...

The Grizzly info doesn't sound like what I generally hear... although I had heard that their early equipment wasn't all that great -- maybe there were bearing issues on some tools 10-15 years ago (?)

Jet Pro Shop is an okay saw. I have one. In its heart of hearts, it is a contractor saw, but with the motor tucked underneath and a bit more enclosed. Dust collection isn't great. Blade guard is pretty bad. Fence is pretty good. Do get the cast iron wings if you get it. The Jet mobile base isn't too bad.

Matt

[Craig McCormick]

He would loose me as a potential customer with the false statements about Griz.
I don't like being lied to.

Craig

[Eric DeSilva]

I don't like being lied to.

It does kind of make you wonder what else he may be exaggerating about. Commitment to service, etc.

[Shiraz Balolia]

The funny thing is that both the G0661 and the Sawstop are made by the same company!

You have a name and address for this fella? We would like to educate him about the birds and the bees.

[Prashun Patel]

I have a Proshop. I'm not disappointed. I like it. Of course, as everyone always said, ultimately I'd like to own a cabinet saw. But that's out of desire - not need. But my guess is most people get saw envy at some point; I bet even Sawstop owners get cheatin' eyes every now and then or WILL in a couple years; it's technology!

The Proshop is plenty powerful even at 110v. It's never bogged and tripped on me - even on 2.5" oak; that's about as thick as I go on the tsaw anyway.

I think the fence is fantastic. It's smooth, and I've never had to realign it since I started.

The guard like most stock guards isn't so great; but I replaced it w/ a Sharkguard and am happy.

It's a good ol' saw.

One caveat: when I got it, it was down in the $800 range with CI wings from Amazon. If I had to buy one today, since the price is up a good $100, I'd be looking more seriously at the Grizzly 1023.

[george wilson]

I've had some Grizzly machines since the 80's. Their bearings have stood up fine. I have 2 lathes,a Hardinge HLVH,a top of the line American metal lathe,but a smaller work envelope of 11" X 18" between centers. My large lathe is a 1986 Grizzly 16" X 40". It still works fine. It isn't in the same class as the Hardinge,but Hardinges cost $60,000 new. The Grizzly was $3500,I think. The Grizzly is accurate,and has done what I needed it to do.

Back in the 80's I wanted to buy a Bridgeport size milling machine to replace a smaller mill. I went down to Newport News,and was shown around by the owner. He was selling milling machines made in Taiwan for exactly 2 times the price of other importers. He told me that they took the new machines apart,and did refitting,etc.,making them much better than others of the same make. I was talking to his foreman a bit later. He told me that they did absolutely nothing to the machines! you should have heard the way the owner had been badmouthing other machines! I went up to Yorktown,Pa.,and took inspection tools,and bought 2 Bridgewood Bridgeport clones. One for me,and 1 for my job in Williamsburg. I still have mine,and the toolmaker's shop still has its. Mine is so good that I have turned down several real Bridgeports that have come up,because my mill has been perfectly accurate,and it is a lot of trouble playing musical milling machines. Bridgeports are now made in Singapore,anyway! they cost 4X what I paid!

From what I've heard about sand pockets falling out of castings,etc.,etc.,I won't say that I haven't been lucky.But,over the years I must have bought at least 7 Grizzly machines for my job. I didn't have the museum budget to buy real expensive European machines.

[Andrew Joiner]

The funny thing is that both the G0661 and the Sawstop are made by the same company!

You have a name and address for this fella? We would like to educate him about the birds and the bees.

Now there you go , thanks Shiraz.
Talk about leveling the playing field! Shiraz has been an honest communicator on this forum. No high pressure tactics or lies are needed if you provide good machines and service at fair prices. I have been pleased with my Grizzly machines right down to the grizzlybearings.

[Cody Colston]

I wonder if that salesman is also a lawyer?

Trashing another company's product in an attempt to enhance your own is NOT the way to generate sales.

[Jim O'Dell]

The frist statement leaves grey area that could be discussed as asking "why" he states you wouldn't be satisfied but... the second comment of owners of Grizzlie's have to replace the bearings every few months tells the story!

Is the gentleman (and I may be using the term loosely here) a former USED car salesman that found an opening as a WW machine salesman. I think he backed his-self in a corner on that and took you for being stupid enough to believe that without questioning the statement.

But.. I am not familar with the Grizzly hybrid so others that may be can chime in. I will say that I really think you should check the spec weights on both the hybrid and cabinet models as I suspect there isn't a great deal of difference that would be enough to influence me to go hybrid. Maybe.. maybe not? You may already have...

John, I fixed it for you.:D That was my thought almost to the word as I read the OP's post. Jim

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Well, as a SS owner, I am truly disappointed in that salesman. I don't have the contractors saw, but I did take a look at it in the store. It looks well made too, but just for bashing the Griz, I'd buy the Griz and send a letter to SS telling them what the salesman said and that you bought the Griz. As many have already said, if the bearings went out every other month, they would have been out of business a long time ago. Jet? I have a couple of thier tools and have not had a problem, so if you got the Jet, I'd send the letter too.....

How is it that Griz and SS is made by the same company? Is that like saying Hummer and Saturn are made by the same company?

[Matt Benton]

Not to speak for Shiraz, but my guess is that they are manufactured/assembled in the same factory, therefore making that factory a vendor for both Grizzly and Sawstop.

As usual, I could be way off here. I'm sure Shiraz will clarify...

[Matt Day]

Not to speak for Shiraz, but my guess is that they are manufactured/assembled in the same factory, therefore making that factory a vendor for both Grizzly and Sawstop.

As usual, I could be way off here. I'm sure Shiraz will clarify...


He did, about an hour before you posted!:p

[Bill White]

The funny thing is that both the G0661 and the Sawstop are made by the same company!

You have a name and address for this fella? We would like to educate him about the birds and the bees.


See! That's to what I referred in the earlier post.
Oh, the bearings in my G0444Z are just fine thank you. (Under my breath...idiot salesman..bashing the competition..probably wouldn't know a rip blade from a crosscut...mumble, mumble.)
Bill

[Dave Sweeney]

He looked you in the eye and flat out lied to you! What you do with that fact is totally up to you.

[Chip Lindley]

Salesmen with *scrupples* do not win many sales awards! If my only job in this world was to be a salesman, I would have to pick a product that I totally believed in! That way I could extoll the virtues of my product, instead of running down the other guy's! Positive, never Negative!

In today's economy, many salesmen are on the virge of losing their jobs, and I suppose they are *desparate* to make that sale! Desparation has caused the one you encountered to loose all his *good sense* too!

[glenn bradley]

No matter how rough the economy is, it is sad to see someone in woodworking resort to used car salesman-like tactics. Oh wait, I get it, the car dealership he used to work at must've closed.

[Doug Shepard]

... it is sad to see someone in woodworking resort to used car salesman-like tactics. ...

Dont let that chip on his shoulder fool ya, he's not in woodworking, he's in retailing.:rolleyes:

[Matt Benton]

Matt D,

I was responding to Kyle's comments (made after Shiraz's post)...

Matt B

[jim hedgpeth]

I have the Griz. g0661, been running it for over a year. I guess I must have changed the bearings in my sleep........... WOW I'm good, and I don't even remember doin it.:D

[Mike Heidrick]

Was the salesman missing a finger/digit?

[John Thompson]

How is it that Griz and SS is made by the same company? Is that like saying Hummer and Saturn are made by the same company?[/QUOTE]

Pretty much public knowledge that Industrial Sawstop.. SS contractor and the Grizzly mentioned by Shiraz are all made at the same ISO factory which is Gee-tech in Taiwan. Sunhill is made there also unless something has changed in the last 5 years with them. But.. the SS pro is made in another factory.

[Ed Garrett]

Great responses folks. Thanks for confirming my suspicions. Here are some follow-up comments:



Matt: My ramp is approximately 1.5’ vertical to 6’ horiz. I’ve got a homemade base (more extreme than Cary’s) with huge 8-inch casters so I can roll it easily in the grass. My current saw weighs about 250 lbs. I’m guessing that I won’t feel like pushing more than 350 lbs. up that ramp, which is why I’m looking at the Grizzly G0661 and the Jet Pro Shop (and the SS Contractor even though I’d prefer an inboard motor to save space and a more enclosed cabinet for dust control). I don’t think I’ll be in the mood to push a cabinet saw up the ramp. If someone has another suggestion for a nice saw I could push up that ramp, I’m all ears.




Jim, Shawn, Matthew: Thanks for the info about the G0661 and Pro Shop. I may have some more questions later…




Shiraz: I’ll send you a PM later with contact info about the shop and the salesman/owner. He was actually very polite. I hold no grudge and wouldn’t want to indict his shop publicly. He has a nice shop with an expensive inventory. I’m sure I’d be a regular customer if I lived there. What he said more specifically about Grizzly was that he had a customer who bought a Grizzly TS, had to replace the bearings after several months, and then had to replace them again after several more months. He posed this as a typical Grizzly experience that I could expect if I were to purchase a G0661. What he said about Grizzly machining and alignment was pretty much a direct quote. I have a feeling he got carried away with his criticism of Grizzly to provoke doubt on my part.


Sincerely,
Ed Garrett
Tallahassee

[John Thompson]

John, I fixed it for you.:D That was my thought almost to the word as I read the OP's post. Jim

Thanks Jim... I thought about using the Used but... since I have been around dealer-ships off and on for over 40 years.. either new or used pretty much fits the bill. A used car salemens probably knows more about auto's in general and will lie to sell it... the typical new car salesman doesn't generally know squat about anything mechanical on a new car and will lie about the competitions product which he even knows less about.

But... both know quite a bit about drinking after the job and chasing women from what I have seen. And to qualify that.. this does not include all as every barrel of apples has a few rotten ones. Every barrel of used and new car salesman has a few good ones. :)

I better get back to the shop where I belong.. ha..ha...

Regards...

[Bill Wyko]

IMHO if these issues were real, we would have had someone here bring up a post. I've always felt the best way to sell is to focus on your strengths, not someone else's weaknesses. In this case I find it hard to believe the problems even exist. The sawstop speaks for itself. Him doing that makes it a whisper.

[Barry Vabeach]

Ed, first, I met someone from Germany who was a salesman of a product, when I asked his background. he said he was an engineer. I told him that in the US, generally a salesman is a a sales person, and they usually don't have any background in how the products are designed. He said it always thought that it was odd that salesman don't have a long background in the product itself and can go from selling cars one day to selling refrigerators another day. He said that when his company first decided to sell in the US they considered the US method, but decided to make sure that they have engineers in the sales dept.
Going back to you first question, you may want to call SS because I thought I heard they were going to be releasing a hybrid soon ( though that could be many months away) To me the contrator version didn't have much bang for the buck, but the PCS version was much better in that regard. It is possible that the hybrid has a similar value. FWIW, I have a Grizzly bandsaw and it is very well made, so I don't know where that salesman was coming from but agree that I don't like it when someone trashes the competition.

[Cody Colston]

Oh wait, I get it, the car dealership he used to work at must've closed.

Yeah. They got cash for all those clunkers! :D

[Paul Ryan]

I am a very pleased SS owner. However over 2K for a contractor saw is too much for me. Some say that about SS cabinet saws but I felt the extra $$ over the other alternatives to be more worth it. If it makes any difference to you the arbor bearings in all of SS machines are all the same. 62MM so you get industrial saw bearings in a contractor saw. Of the 3 saws you talked about I feel the jet to be your best bank for your buck. It has been tested over and over again as a hybrid saw and has been a top choice consistantly. The dust collection on the jet will be better, the footprint smaller, and has a very good fence. The reason the dust collection will be better is becasue the cabinet for the jet even though on 4 legs it is still enclosed. The SS will basically cost double what either of the other two saws will run. But is it twice as good? Construction wise it will be better than the other 2 saws and the upgraded fence will be better as well. Then you add the blade brake technology, maybe it isn't so bad?

As everyone else has said the salesman was blowing smoke up your south end. But if you compare the tricked out SS with the cast wings, and bies fence it will run over 2k. If you don't think you will EVER buy a cabinet saw, then buy the best and safest contractor saw you can.

[Vic Damone]

The funny thing is that both the G0661 and the Sawstop are made by the same company!

You have a name and address for this fella? We would like to educate him about the birds and the bees.

Are you inferring that all or most of the the materials and components are the same and even interchangeable in both your Grizzly and the SawStop simply because there made by the same manufacturer?

As a company owner you would actually get involved with a competitive salesperson using a second hand account of a verbal he said she said?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Are you inferring that all or most of the the materials and components are the same and even interchangeable in both your Grizzly and the SawStop simply because there made by the same manufacturer?

As a company owner you would actually get involved with a competitive salesperson using a second hand account of a verbal he said she said?

Vic,

I suspect he is arguing that the chances of there being a mechanical misalignment causing premature bearing failures as stated are less since they are both manufactured in the same plant.

[george wilson]

It is possible for machinery of differing quality to be made in the same factory,if they are made with different specifications which had to be followed. This does not infer that any parts are the same as far as I can see. I thought that the Sawstop I bought for my job was very deluxe compared to other saws I have seen.

I know some different brands of wood chisels are made in the same factory.Different models and price range cars at least used to be made in the same factory.I know Dodge and Plymouth were at one time.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

George,

The original statement said that there was unusual bearing wear due to a mechanical misalignment. The odds of that happening are less when they are both made in the same factory.

Yes, each product has to have it's own manufacturing specifications. I would bet standard manufacturing specifications would spell out the amount of mechanical misalignments that would be acceptable.

I have a problem with sales people who can't find good enough reason to sell their product on it's own merits but instead have to run down the competition. To me that tells me the sales person isn't comfortable that their product can stand on it's own merits.

[george wilson]

I agree with you on all points,Ken. I was addressing the question Vic raised about the saws possibly being made of the same parts.

[peter leyden]

This does not relate to tools at all - but definitely resonates with the issue of salesmen speaking truth or blarney. Years ago I met the then famous inventor of speaker systems and during the ensuing conversation I mentioned a problem I was having with a competitors product. Instead of taking the low road and knocking the competitors product he recommended giving customer service of his competitor a chance to solve my problem. I was impressed! The products are not the same but the integrity of the gentleman has stayed with me since that time. Examples that were just the opposite(as in the Sawstop salesman) have also lingered in my mind and just serve to point up the "class" exhibited by the inventor.

[Roger Jensen]

Before jumping on SawStop for unethical sales tactics let's review what it means to be a salesman (or salesperson) for a company these days. The OP didn't say where this happened, but the companies I have seen selling SS these days are selling many other products and don't have that much knowledge about any of them. Even if they have 2 or 3 dedicated folks that really understand SS, the OP could have encountered a part-time guy with no training or authority to say what he did.

I encounter ignorant sales people all the time, whether it is appliance salesreps that don't understand their products or tool retailers that sell far too many brands to become experts in all of them. I believe that retail stores today operates on such razor thin margins they can't invest the necessary resources to train all of their salespeople about their own products, let alone the competitor's product.

The OP may have encountered a sleazy salesman. Or, the salesperson was told this by a frustrated Grizzly customer (there is probably one out there) that he had a bad experience and passed this on to him. I doubt all Grizzly products have these problems, and I doubt all SS salesreps lie to their customers.

Roger

[Bill White]

There is also a huge misuse of the words "infer" and "imply". :mad:
Bill

[scott spencer]

A dissenting opinion of competitor's product is expected from sales people, but trashing a competitor is disappointing.

Both the Proshop and the Grizzly you mentioned are nicely evolved examples of hybrid style home duty saws. Both have very nice fences, good trunnion design, and excellent motor location. Something about people in glass houses comes to mind. While the SS may have a great safety feature and some other positives, the choice of an outboard motor location was short sighted at best, steel wings are common for $500 saws, and the entry level fence they offer is horrible.

[Ed Garrett]

Scott,

Thanks for the comment. You took the words out of my mouth.

I was a bit disappointed with the SS Contractor, not because it didn't appear well made, but because the outboard motor design seemed obsolete. I was intending to buy a lightweight Sawstop, but I was also looking for less footprint and a more enclosed cabinet. I like the safety feature and the riving knife, but the basic configuration of the saw is no better than my ancient Craftsman flexdrive which I've made some great mods to including a quick release guard and a sealed up cabinet with DC. I'm now thinking that even if SS makes a hybrid, it will be a little too heavy for my needs.

I can feel myself turning toward the Grizzly or Jet. I will be particularly interested if Grizzly closes up the cabinet a little more on the G0661 or Jet updates the Pro Shop to include a blade shroud and a quick release riving knife.

P.S. to anybody who's been following this post. I started a PM to Mr. Balolia to identify the salesman who dissed Grizzly, but I chickened out...

Sincerely,
Ed Garrett
Tallahassee

[John Coloccia]

Re: jet and griz
Don't know about the Jet, but the Griz is a nice saw. That's all there is to it

re: the saw stop
I have the contractor saw, with stainless wings and the small extension table. The thing is built like a brick, and generally "feels" more like a cabinet saw than a contractor saw. It's not a contractor saw by any means, but the fence is solid, and the whole saw is solid. Very nice feel.

re: the salesman
Really poor form. If the best you can do to sell your product is to trash other products, you're a really poor salesman. Don't let it reflect on SS as a company, though. They make a great product and provide fantastic customer service.

Like so many things these days, there's lots of choices in a price range, and generally things are pretty competitive. When you start getting into the more serious saws, I think you'd be hard pressed to find junk. It's more about finding the saw with the right features and feel that meet your specific needs more than it is buying for quality.

I'll also throw in that Grizzly's customer service is just as good as SawStop's on the couple of occasions I've had to use it.

[Loren Hedahl]

I'd take a thorough second look at the products the SawStop salesman trashed. They are probably as good or better than the SawStop he is selling and that is why he has to resort to competition bashing.

Best not to walk, but run from a product that is being promoted that way!

[Maurice Ungaro]

A long, long time ago I was taught never to speak poorly of the competition - it is better to speak of your products assets and what puts it above the field. Speaking poorly of the competition only reflects poorly upon you.

[Rob Price]

I re-read the original post- you said you went to a small independent shop- so was it a Sawstop Employee (as implied by the subject 'Sawstop Salesman') or was it the shop owner? A big difference to me. A small shop entrepreneur is very different from a paid SS employee.

It's poor form/lying either way, but trying to sell you a product he's going to make money on as a local businessman is what it sounds like. The 'competition' is anyone he's not going to make money on. (ie. I'm guessing he doesn't sell Grizz products).

[Bob Wingard]

DANG IT !! !! !!

Why didn't someone tell me about the "scheduled" bearing failures on my Griz ?? ?? ??

I've had it since 1995, and according to this, I am behind about 84 bearing replacements, give or take a dozen. I wonder if I can make it up by changing bearings EVERY month for the next 14 years. $HIT .. now I AM confuzzled !! !! !!

[Rick Gooden]

I have no use for any salesman that disparages the competition. If you cannot sell your product on it's merits you need to find another product or another job.

[Steve Clardy]

DANG IT !! !! !!

Why didn't someone tell me about the "scheduled" bearing failures on my Griz ?? ?? ??

I've had it since 1995, and according to this, I am behind about 84 bearing replacements, give or take a dozen. I wonder if I can make it up by changing bearings EVERY month for the next 14 years. $HIT .. now I AM confuzzled !! !! !!

+1
I think I bought my 1023 in 95 also.

Can't afford all those bearings now.

[Keith Christopher]

While I don't care for these tactics, they are in fact a sales tactic. Bottom line, buy what you like. Of the couple of Grizzly tools I purchased one is still working and one I simply gave up on trying to get the bandsaw wheels to stay coplanar so the blade would stay on them. So really I guess it depends on the consumer. Oddly enough though the sales man should have known he's selling a saw to a bunch of people who will do their research with so many options out there. Be it Green, Yellow, White, blue-grey, or black. Our industry is no better than any other, there are a few gems out there but over all companies need to sell to stay in business.

[Stephen Edwards]

Another good reason why I buy most of my tools on the net: I don't have to endure sales pitches/hype from a salesperson.

[Matt Ranum]

This subject reminds me of the AC salesman we had here at the house last summer when we were looking at putting in central air. He has asked how many and who the other bidders were and then after completely trashing their work pratices and then their products, the biggest selling point he gave was how good the paint will hold up on the unit outside.:rolleyes: Like if its broke and the house is 95 degrees I really give a crap about the paint, as long as it works I don't care if its solid rust.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

His comments, esp. about Grizzly, smack of desperation and/or complete misunderstanding about how machines work.

Agreed. And how could he bash other machines he sells?

Oh...wait...he doesn't sell jet or grizzly??? Imagine my surprise........