Need Help/Ideas

[Mike Henderson]

I have to make an eight sided tray with the sides made from 1/2" stock, two inches high. The joints are 22.5*. My problem is that I'd like something to "hook" the pieces together and I want it to be invisible. So a spline won't work because it would show on the top. I thought about the small FF biscuits that PC makes but I don't own a PC plate joiner and don't want to go buy one unless I'm sure it will work. Anyone own the PC 557 and used it for small stock with the FF biscuits?

Do you have any different suggestions/ideas? Whatever it is, it must be invisible.

Mike

[Larry Rasmussen]

I'm picturing the same basic bit of work for either choice or any one of a number of variations that will be suggested. A jig that will hold each of your pieces at that 22.5 degree angle is the common component. On the drill press they would be held standing almost vertically so length of the individual pieces may be longer than your clearance. Sounds like a pain, I say use the router table.

A jig to hold the wood up enough so that the face of the wood is parallel to the face of the router fence, a wedge. Clamp a pair of boards flat onto table at a right angle to the router fence with the open width the size of your jig on the table between them. You just slide the wedge holding your piece straight into the slot cutter, the two pieces clamped to the table will keep it steady and straight, won't need to move it along the fence at all- just straight onto the bit then back it out, you have a biscuit slot. I hope you can picture this, it is a pretty common jigged cut on a router table.

Good Luck,
Larry Rasmussen
Seattle

[Mike Henderson]

I understand your description, Larry. Good idea and keeps me from having to buy the PC plate joiner. I'll go pick up some of those FF biscuits and check to make sure they're the same thickness as regular biscuits (5/32"). I have a 5/32" slot cutter so I can do this with what I have. I already have some ideas for how to build the jig.

Thanks a bunch - that will save me some real money!

Mike

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Why don't you want to get biscuit joiner? They're very handy and lightning fast..... The DeWalt is a little cheaper, and just as good, IMO. In 1/2" stock, cutting biscuits will be no problem. If this project turns out well, you may need to make more.

My idea: Do you have a Bessey strap clamp? That can clamp all of the joints at once, if you buy an extra set of those corner things. There are other brands of strap clamps. I just happen to have the Bessey, and can't remember who else makes them.

[Mike Henderson]

Kyle - I have a biscuit joiner, the Dewalt, in fact. I've used it in half inch stock to join 45* miters but I have to be careful with the biscuit placement or it'll cut through (I have to place the biscuit high in the miter). My concern is the width of the sides I'm using - 2", and there's a groove around the bottom 1/4" wide, and 1/4" up from the bottom, to capture the main part of the tray - so I really only have 1 1/2" to put the biscuit in.

Even a #0 biscuit is 1 3/4" long. But the FF biscuits are 30mm long or about 1.2" which will work for me. But the Dewalt will not cut for FF biscuits. [Note: I'm seeing two thicknesses for the FF biscuit 5/32 and 3mm. I'll have to wait until I buy some to find out how thick they really are.][Update - I bought some FF biscuits and they're 5/32.)

I have the Bessey strap clamp. The reason I want to put the biscuits in is not for alignment (although that's good) but for strength and longevity of the joints.

The suggestion Larry gave will allow me to cut for the FF biscuits on my router table. Trying to cut a small piece of wood with a biscuit joiner is tough so the router table and jig may make it a more accurate cut. I know I've had trouble getting the Dewalt aligned on small pieces of wood, especially when cutting into a 45* miter.

Mike

[Just for reference, here's the sizes of the different biscuits:
FF - 30x13X4 (about 1 3/16x1.2x5/32)
0 - 47x15x4 (about 1 3/4x5/8x5/32)
10 - 53x19x4 (about 2 1/8x3/4x5/32)
20 - 56x23x4 (about 2 1/4x1x5/32)
source: Lamello web site except for the FF biscuit]

[Philip Duffy]

Mike, What about trying to put pins of wood between the parts? They would be simple drilled holes, say 1/8th x 1 or something close to that. Then epoxy the pins in place and it would not break for a very long time. Good luck! Phil

[Mike Henderson]

I thought of that. I could use those bamboo skewers used for barbecue. But how do I align the holes? If I didn't care if they showed, I could drill holes after glueup and put the pins in. But I want to have them hidden so I have to drill blind holes that line up when the two pieces are put together. I guess I could rig some kind of jig but the accuracy called for is tough.

With a biscuit you only need to have accuracy in one dimension - if you're off a bit in the other dimension it doesn't matter much. There's enough side to side slop in a biscuit that you can fit the two pieces together. And since I have a tray bottom going in, that will give me up and down alignment. So with a biscuit, I only have to be concerned with the placement of the biscuit cut along the miter (how far it is from the inner edge, for example).

Mike

[Doug Shepard]

What about maybe going the other direction with corner splines but on the inside? You could do them on the TS at an angle so they dont go all the way to the corners, then cut angled keys and slip them in while gluing up. Then use a flush cut saw and chisel plane to trim off the excess??

[Scot Ferraro]

Hi Mike,

I have the PC and have used FF size on picture frames that ar 1/2 inch wide without issue.

Scot

[Mike Henderson]

What about maybe going the other direction with corner splines but on the inside? You could do them on the TS at an angle so they dont go all the way to the corners, then cut angled keys and slip them in while gluing up. Then use a flush cut saw and chisel plane to trim off the excess??
I'll have to think about that. With a 10" blade I wonder how much cut I'd get if I stopped before I hit the top.

Thanks for the suggestion.


Hi Mike,

I have the PC and have used FF size on picture frames that are 1/2 inch wide without issue.

Scot
Scott - putting picture frames together is sort of the opposite of what I'm trying to do. On a picture frame you have a miter on the "flat". What I'm doing is making the sides of a serving tray so the miters are cut differently than you would on a picture frame. That is, the pieces of wood are standing up and are attached with a miter. It's as if you were making a shadow box picture frame and not a regular flat picture frame.

Mike

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Oh, a tiny tray..... Sorry, yeah, it won't work....

[Dell Littlefield]

If you are going to use plywood and glue the bottom in, I question the need for any joint reinforcement. Although it is end grain to endgrain, glue should hold it without a problem. Many boxes are made with only miter joints. Seems to me the 22.5* joints would be even stronger than a a 45*. I don't have any experience with biscuits but I would think you would need to test them in some scrap first. Since they swell, could they telegraph to the outside?

[Mike Henderson]

Good points, Dell. The tray is 1/4" MDF with veneer on both sides. I finish the panel (and the insides of the sides) before glue-up so there's no glue surface except the edge of the panel, and that generally doesn't fit tight against the inside of the sides (I need a bit of slop to make sure the sides go together).

I have made square trays and just glued the miters together but I'm looking to "make sure" (this is for a client). With 22.5* joints, the wood is more end-grain-to-end-grain than with 45* joints. Also, well placed biscuits will make the glue-up easier. It's tough to get four sides to go together well without any alignment device so I imagine eight sides will be even worse.

Just to help people visualize things, I'm including a couple of pictures of the panel, top side and bottom side. I just started the finishing process so it's a bit rough.

The top side is an eight way match of curly bubinga with a commercial banding and border of walnut. The back side is an eight way match of claro walnut.

Mike

[Just an added note: People love curly bubinga but it's a bear to work with.]

[Lee Schierer]

It's tough to get four sides to go together well without any alignment device so I imagine eight sides will be even worse.

Try laying all your pieces end to end on masking tape or better still use that nylon reinforced strapping tape. Once you have them all end to end apply glue to the joint areas and roll them up, overlap tape on the final joint and all the pieces will align perfectly and stay there. Once the glue sets, pull off the tape.


But how do I align the holes?


You can easily drill precisely located holes in the ends for dowels or pins with a simple jig on a drill press.

[Mike Henderson]

I've done that, Lee, with wide blue tape. Works pretty good but I wanted to clamp the sides to make sure they were in intimate contact. And you know how that goes, tighten one clamp and that side moves in, then tighten the perpendicular clamp to get everything aligned again, etc.

I'll think about a drill press jig. Using bamboo skewers as small dowels would be attractive.

Mike

[Bill Huber]

Couldn't you just make your own biscuits and use a slot cutting bit on a router table to cut the slots?

Cut a wedge to hold the part at the right angle and then set the fence on the router for the depth.

[Mike Henderson]

I suppose I could make my own biscuits but I'd prefer to buy them. And I will cut the slot on the router table, even for the purchased biscuits.

Mike

[Lee Schierer]

I've done that, Lee, with wide blue tape. Works pretty good but I wanted to clamp the sides to make sure they were in intimate contact. And you know how that goes, tighten one clamp and that side moves in, then tighten the perpendicular clamp to get everything aligned again, etc.

I'll think about a drill press jig. Using bamboo skewers as small dowels would be attractive.

Mike

When I made my octagonal table
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~us71na/octagonal%20table.jpg
and octagonal faced clocks,
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~us71na/lukeclock.jpg
I used a nylon band clamp and it pushed all the joints together easily.

[glenn bradley]

Something like this with the jig angled or setting on a wedge? http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=88325&highlight=biscuit

[Mike Henderson]

Yep, Glenn. That's what Larry suggested except using the router table instead of a freehand router. I'm going to make a jig that holds the piece at 22.5* and have a depth limit. I'll make two rails on either side of the jig to keep it moving straight into the slot cutter, and use the fence to limit how far the jig can move forward.

I'll put a base on the jig and make a saw cut that the stock slips into to get registration so the cut is in the same place on all pieces.

Anyway, I'll post a picture when I get it done.

Thanks to everyone who helped with their ideas and suggestions.

Mike

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Mike,
Here's a thought. You will probably groove your mitered pieces to make a place for the panel. When you do, the spot where the panel will fit against the frame will be a triangle shape. Glue up your frame with no spline. Leave two opposing joints without glue you can insert the panel later. Take your panel and cut off all the triangles to a size that will allow a bit of the panel to still be covered by the frame at the joints. Then make replacement triangles out of hardwood to act as joint support and glue each tiny triangle to the inside of your frame. Gluing up the last two joints will be done when you insert the panel and will be tedious but with some care you will handle that.

butch

[Mike Henderson]

Faust - thanks for the idea. That would work but as you indicate, it would be tedious. I'll think about it.

Mike

[Dick Strauss]

Mike,
How about making a 1/4" spacer board that gets double stick taped to the front of your plate jointer (with a hole for the cutter)? This will give you a more shallow and shorter pocket for the biscuits. Then you can trim to fit your smallest biscuits with a pocket knife or you could rub them on the belt/disc sander for a second or two.

Here's a really crazy idea...mortise and tenon joints...nothing visible, strong joint, pain in the butt to make...It could be done with an appropriate wedge under the piece to make the mortise and tenons perpendicular to the faces.

[Alan Schwabacher]

The panel is veneered MDF -- what about the sides? Are they solid wood? If they are veneered MDF as well, I would think that just glueing the miter would be just as strong as a spline, as long as you use a band clamp.

[Mike Henderson]

The sides are solid walnut. They look something like the pictures.

You can see that the joint is almost end grain to end grain.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

I got sidetracked onto another project and put this tray project aside. I managed to get back to it today and used Larry's idea of a jig to cut the slots for the ff biscuits.
126271

I aligned the piece on the sled with the router bit (slot cutter) to cut the slots in the end of the side pieces. Worked great. See the ends of the pieces below. Having the biscuits in made the glue up a snap, and the joints are a lot stronger than if I just glued them without the biscuits.
126272 126273
126279

And here's the tray, not finished but with the sides on. I just have to shoot the sides with lacquer to finish it.
126274

Thanks for all your suggestions.

Mike