How many of you use a mortise gauge?

[Thomas Kila]

I'm looking at neandering future mortises and tenons and was wondering if a mortise gauge is that much better than a simple marking gauge. (I already have a marking gauge, and have been looking at mortise gauges.) For those who do use mortise gauges, which type do you use? Marking (pin-type) or cutting (knives)? And lastly, where did you get your mortise gauge from?
Thanks!

[Pam Niedermayer]

I use a double bladed Kinshiro mortise gauge that I got from Iida Tool (http://www.japantool-iida.com/). It can also be used as a single blade by sliding the inner blade away from the action, sort of nestles in the body. But, you have to get lucky since Kinshiro doesn't make these full time anymore.

I've also got piles of knives and small gauges, somewhere a double armed ancient sample; but I seldom use them.

It's important to have the two blades (cutting in my case) so I can set the gauge by wrapping the blades around an object, say a chisel; which allows me to avoid the errors introduced in measuring/marking by numbers.

Pam

[Martin Cash]

I don't use one for marking mortises, I use a standard Veritas Wheel marking gauge:
see:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=59455&cat=1,42936

A morticing gauge is very useful for marking out a groove along the grain before using a plough plane with the set on a morticing gauge the same width as the width of the blade. Leaves a nice clean cut with no tearout on the surface.

[Billy Chambless]

I use a pin type, a Stanley 77 that I got on ebay for about $10.

[Robert Rozaieski]

A mortise gauge isn't really necessary for marking mortises. A normal marking gauge will do as the width of the mortise chisel is what defines the width of the mortise.

With that said, it would be very difficult and ineffecient to precisely mark the mating tenons without a mortise gauge (I think they should be called tenon gauges personally ;)). You set the two pins to the width of the mortise chisel and that sets the thickness of the tenon up to perfectly match the mortise. I suppose you could use a single pin gauge if you were making single shouldered tenons but for tenons with two shoulders, you really need a mortise [tenon] gauge to be precise and effecient.

[Rod Sheridan]

I use a marking gauge, it speeds up the process greatly since I leave the pins spaced for for my most common tenon size.

Regards, Rod.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Thomas

Like Pam, I also use a double bladed Kinshiro mortise gauge. With the method I use, there is no substitute. Let me show you why ...

First of all, there is a technique to setting up a mortice gauge which, once used, will convince you that they are the way to go.

In a nutshell, the settings on the mortice gauge are used for both the mortice and the tenon. Once set up you only need to transfer the marks. By contrast, if you used single bladed gauge, you would have to reset for all the lines.

The pictures below were recently taken when I was recording the build of a jack plane.

Step one: using the mortice chisel, mark an indent in the wood (ignore the state of this blade - it was fixed for chopping the mortice).

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Joints/Marking%20M%20and%20T%20joints/tenon1.jpg

Step two: place the blades of the mortice gauge at the outer extremes of the indent.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Joints/Marking%20M%20and%20T%20joints/tenon2.jpg

Step three: score either the mortice or the tenon. Here I have scored the tenon. I saw to the line.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Joints/Marking%20M%20and%20T%20joints/tenon3.jpg

Step four: when chopping the mortice I lightly score the top with the chisel but stop 1/4" short from each end. This will be removed at the end.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Joints/Marking%20M%20and%20T%20joints/mortice1.jpg

Step five: Once I am near the depth, I add masking tape as a depth gauge.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Joints/Marking%20M%20and%20T%20joints/mortice2.jpg

Step six: clean up the ends of the mortice. Here it is in completed state.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Joints/Marking%20M%20and%20T%20joints/mortice3.jpg

Using a mortice gauge allows you to set up and retain the same setting for both the mortice and the tenon.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Raney Nelson]

Count me as another Kinshiro user. Unfortunately, as Pam said, they've gotten harder to get (and a good bit more expensive) as the maker has gone into semi-retirement. They are truly an exceptional tool, though.

A distant second for mortising gauge would be a pin style - I really prefer knives, but a pin will certainly work, and the cost for a good knife guage is approaching ridiculous for a hobbyist. The Outils-Cullen gauges that LV sells are quite good and well made: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=49901&cat=1,42936

[Derek Cohen]

I really prefer knives, but a pin will certainly work, and the cost for a good knife guage is approaching ridiculous for a hobbyist.

Pins can be turned into knives.

Here is a panel gauge I made, and in the background is a Colen Clenton (single pin) cutting gauge. I used this as a model when making the knife-from-a-drill bit shank.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Panel%20Gauge/PanelGauge2.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Panel%20Gauge/PanelGauge6.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[lowell holmes]

My posting in this string is like a mule running in the Kentucky Derby, but here goes.

The pic's show a cutting gage I made recently. It was inspired by an article in Popular Woodworking (IIRC Sept 2006).

Ninety percent of my m&t work is 1/4" and 3/8" in size.

My intention is to make two new beams for the gage. There will be two cutters per beam, one beam set at 1/4" and one set at 3/8". They will be matched to my chisels. That should simplify the issue. I saw this somewhere and it seems like a good idea.

[harry strasil]

I use morise gauges, original stanleys and double bar ones with a knife. often I only use a single point or knife and line my mortise chisel and/or foot mortiser on only one side.

[Ben Silverman]

Glen-Drake makes cutters for his Tite-Mark gage. The cutters are available in both fixed width and adjustable pairs. Just hone the flat side of each cutter on a 8000 stone and you will get clean, repeatable scores. Ben

[Frank Drew]

I understand why some folks prefer knives to pins, but careful marking with a pin can be every bit as precise. I've used both, as what was close to hand or the situation required.

IMO, mortise gauges (two lines at once) are quicker than single pin/knife marking gauges when setting out mortise and tenon joints. I have a couple, a Marples and a really nice Ulmia.

[Jim Koepke]

Mine is a nice rosewood pin gauge bought on eBay.

The pins are set using the chisel being used for the mortise. Then the face orientation of the mortice piece and the tenon piece are marked.

Makes it easier to line things up.

For some things like trestles on wide legs, it works to mark the tenon, but if the mortice is in the center of a leg, then a different marking method may be needed.

jim

[Rick Erickson]

Tite-Mark - I just change the blade on my marking gauge. Or I just mark one side using my marking gauge and the width of my chisel defines the other side.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Hi Thomas

Like Pam, I also use a double bladed Kinshiro mortise gauge. With the method I use, there is no substitute. Let me show you why ...

First of all, there is a technique to setting up a mortice gauge which, once used, will convince you that they are the way to go.
...

Using a mortice gauge allows you to set up and retain the same setting for both the mortice and the tenon.

Regards from Perth

Derek

That's kind of what I meant about not measuring; but we differ in how we make the first gauge setting. I measure the chisel first.

Pam

[Brian Ward]

Like Pam, I also use a double bladed Kinshiro mortise gauge. With the method I use, there is no substitute.


Ooooh, that's a very nice design. The cost is a little high, though. I wonder how hard it would be to make something like that.

I do something similar to this with the cheap 2-arm mortise gauge that you can get from Lee Valley. I chop a test mortise first (in whatever wood), stick the blades in the hole, then tighten up with the blades on the mortise walls. The Kinshiro would be really nice for that.

[Raney Nelson]

Ooooh, that's a very nice design. The cost is a little high, though. I wonder how hard it would be to make something like that.

The difficult part about making it is the blades - which are smithed specifically for this application. I'm sure a good blacksmith could make them, but I don't know of any way to source a pair. A resourceful woodworker might be able to heat and bend some O1 stock for the purpose, but it's not the simplest design to replicate.

The woodworking portions are done to a very precise level of course, but there's really nothing particularly difficult in there. This actually seems like a pretty interesting project to take a stab at...

[Brian Kent]

What about these? I assume something about them is not as good as a $200+ model, but much more affordable:

$35
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=15%2E260&dept_id=12996

$33
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=15%2E260%2E2&dept_id=12996

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Brian

They look pretty good to me. I looked at these myself some time back, then was given my gauge as a gift (!).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pam Niedermayer]

As it happens, I bought a set of Kinshiro's blades for the smaller gauge to make my own because Kinshiro had already announced he was quitting and gauges were few and far between in the US; but before I could get it made, Tomohito Iida came up with a large Kinshiro gauge. I still expect to make the small gauge for small work.

Pam

[Thomas Kila]

Thanks to all that have responded. As usual, the collective wisdom and experience here is what makes the 'Creek such a great place to visit. I especially appreciate the tips on how you each use your gauges to mark mortises. Mahalo!

[Raney Nelson]

Brian,

I believe those are Kokaji made - which is the brand that was recommended to me for a lower cost alternative by So Yamashita (japan-tool.com) down under. His assessments have always been dead-on for me in the past.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Raney

If So says they are good, then they are good. Incidentally, he lives not in Japan but in Sydney (actually the northern beaches, close to Narrabeen, an old windsurfing haunt of mine a few decades ago, before we moved to Perth).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Raney Nelson]

Hi Raney

If So says they are good, then they are good. Incidentally, he lives not in Japan but in Sydney (actually the northern beaches, close to Narrabeen, an old windsurfing haunt of mine a few decades ago, before we moved to Perth).

Regards from Perth

Derek

oops - I knew that.

Those northern beaches must be the reason I always find it so hard to reach him when the surfing's good. :cool:

[Adam Cherubini]

Like Bob, I use my mortise gauge for marking out my tenons. When the mortise and tenon board are flush (not always), sure, I'll go ahead and mark the tenon.

I think the best gauge is a fixed pin gauge. Just a stick with two carefully filed nails fitted with a moveable fence. A serviceable gauge can be made without a moveable fence as well.

The pins should have a flat side, which is what I think Derek was showing.

Adam

[philip marcou]

I'm looking at neandering future mortises and tenons and was wondering if a mortise gauge is that much better than a simple marking gauge. (I already have a marking gauge, and have been looking at mortise gauges.) For those who do use mortise gauges, which type do you use? Marking (pin-type) or cutting (knives)? And lastly, where did you get your mortise gauge from?
Thanks!

A mortice gauge is a whole lot more convenient than a marking gauge when marking out mortices. This because the width you have set remains constant from one mark out to the next, whereas if you used a single blade /pin marking gauge this width could vary according to any variation in timber thickness, assuming that you mark from each side as normal-but at least the mortice will be on centre. This may not be the case with a double pin-unless you check by marking from both sides- but at least the width stays the same ;)
Traditional mortice gauges have pins, but these should be filed so that there is a mini knife profile, in which case they work nicely just like ones with knives or wheels.
My mortice gauge came from London, is stamped "J. Buck-maker- London 1870" and is made of African Blackwood. I replaced the pins with sewing machine needles which are mighty hard and strong. My marking gauge is self made.

[harry strasil]

A piece of Oak, 2 5/8" dowels, 2 3/8" dowels, 2 pieces of old hand saw blade, 2 small brass screws, a 5/8" bit and a 3/8" bit, and 45 minutes and a quick marking gauge is born. Not pretty, but functional.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/mrknggage8-7-09.jpg