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View Full Version : My Borg lumber Bench kicks your Ipe Bench's butt (looooong gloat)



Raney Nelson
08-04-2009, 8:15 PM
(note - I'm going to poke a little fun at 'pretty' hardwood benches here - it's not meant as an indictment of anyone's bench, and not intended to offend. It's meant to be humorous... I like gorgeous hardwood benches as much as anyone; but sometimes I think we can convey the wrong idea about benches by only posting the multi-species fine furniture style benches.)

OK - I know, I know - the world needs another workbench build thread right now like it needs more Lindsay Lohan exposés - so I won’t go through the build process. I promise. It’s basically a Roubo as Schwarz writes up in his book.

I am, however, going to tell you why my new workbench kicks my pretty, old, over-achiever workbench's butt and sends it home to mommy blubbering, teary, and without its milk money.


So anyway, here is my new bench. She's not especially pretty (though she's not ugly either) but she knows how to treat a woodworker!

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d17/rckt/DSCN3300.jpg

A few thoughts on what is so sweeeet about this bench, and why you can't have it.
1) Doug fir is a great bench wood. Super stiff, good density, and cheap. It does dent pretty easily, but that's a plus as far as I’m concerned – it means the bench will dent before whatever I'm working on. It’s flat, but it’s not smooth, so it has a little friction advantage for holding stock. It’s also unfinished. Completely. So far, not so much as a coat of paste wax. I’m not sure I’ll be able to stick to that strategy (it means I can’t do ANY gluing on the bench) but for now I’m committed to trying it out.

2) Size - I had to rearrange my whole shop to do it, but I finally squeezed an 8-foot bench in, and managed to get three sides accessible for working. 8 feet is ten times as big as 70-inchs (the length of the old bench) and I don't need no math to tell me otherwise.

3) two words: bench. crafted. - well, maybe it's actually one word. I don't know. Anyway - it's the vises, stupid.

First – the tail vise: Why is it so awesome? Because it incorporates all the good bits of a classic tail vise, but it doesn't sag, it operates really really quickly, and it doesn't sag. It’s basically a really well-designed wagon vise, and with a traveling nut instead of a traveling screw. That’s nice, because it means you don’t need a lot of excess space at the end of the bench. And to the best of my knowledge, it is the only complete wagon vise solution currently (and maybe ever) available for purchase. The hardware is seriously beefy, and seriously smooth. It’s just Well Built. Plus, and this is a BIG plus, you can actually WORK on the right corner of the bench without fear that the tail vise is going to sag . Why? . Because this vise doesn't sag.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d17/rckt/DSCN3318.jpg

Last night I did some dovetailing. When it came time to chop the waste – do you know what I did? I put the board in between the dogs, and I chopped the waste. No complicated clamp and holdfast arrangements - I just clamped, chopped, unclamped, flipped, and chopped some more.. And can you guess what the vise DIDN'T do??? Yeah - you guessed it: SAG.

And as far as I can tell, I suspect this vise is pretty much immune to sagging. Did I mention that already? Yup – this is the ultimate wagon vise – and for my money it’s the ultimate tail vise in general.

Glide Leg vise: what can I say about this. If you've seen the video for it, all I can tell you is that it's completely accurate. You just give that wheel a spin like your name was Vanna, and whoosh! Next thing you know your workpiece is locked in.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d17/rckt/DSCN3303-1.jpg

When I talked to Jameel about it, he told me that he’s still getting used to the fact that the vise really doesn't need any torque at all 99% of the time. I've been putting that to the test, and I couldn't agree more. Set the parallel guide pin, give the wheel the old Vanna spin, watch it lock down and go to work. No handles to rotate, no vowels to buy. Releasing is just as easy.

There are two indispensable bits of innovation in the Glide: the first is the parallel guide support rollers, which mean this thing literally floats along in the horizontal plane. A seriously cool idea. The second is the 'Acetal' bushing that keeps the vise screw stable. It keeps the vise laterally stable, but with almost zero friction. The combination of these two features is what makes the glide glide, and why that handwheel is capable of 10X more torque than you'd ever need.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d17/rckt/DSCN3315.jpg

I knew how incredible the vises were when I ordered them. But what did surprise me, actually, was how easy they are to install. Jameel's instructions are ludicrously complete, including outstanding templates, a video or two, and page upon page of photos, step-by-steps, and recommendations.

So complete, in fact, that I did one of those “dumb ideas” we all know you shouldn’t do: I cut all the pieces, and did all the prep for these vises before the hardware arrived.

Let me be perfectly clear that I DO NOT recommend this. It's a dumb idea. You know it, and I know it. Nonetheless, that's what I did... what can I say? I'm a risk-taker.

And you know what? It all went off without a hitch.

These things are incredibly precisely made - but one of the advantages of that precision, is that they really are forgiving about installation. You CAN screw the installation up, but if you take your time and follow the instruction guide (make sure you print the templates at the right scale ;) ) they're remarkably easy to get working, and working really well.

As with anything this great, there is a price. In this case, that price is – well… the price. I think they’re well worth every penny, and as someone well aware that my vises are probably the most used tools I own, I have zero qualms about the expense - but it costs money to make small runs of such high-tolerance gear; and I know that cost is not something all of us can swing.

So here's my recommendation - if you can afford it, buy a vise (or both) from Benchcrafted - it's money you won't regret.

But even if you can't afford them, spend a bit of time really looking at what he's put into the design. Some of the ideas he's implemented are worthy additions to ANY hardware. I don't really think re-creating the Glide is very feasible (or cost effective) with cheaper hardware, but if cheaper hardware is what you can afford, you might want to consider borrowing from Jameel's roller guide concept. And making a wagon vise from an inexpensive acme screw and wooden parts may not get you as smooth or robust a vise as the BC tail vise, but it will still get you a lot further than any other wagon vise solution you can buy!

So there you have it. Best workbench ever? I don’t know. But it is without a doubt the best one I’ve ever used. And the more I use it, the more I like it.

So tell your Trophy Bloodwood and Hard Maple Euro-bench to be wary – if it wants to keep its milk money and its self-respect, it best keep out of my neighborhood ;)

Casey Gooding
08-04-2009, 8:19 PM
Looks great!! Nice job.

Bruce Page
08-04-2009, 8:56 PM
Definitely a kick-butt bench!

Very nice

Larry Frank
08-04-2009, 9:02 PM
That is one really good looking bench...you should be proud.

Garth Keel
08-04-2009, 9:10 PM
Let me get this straight... you like the vises!:p

Prashun Patel
08-04-2009, 9:10 PM
Not pretty? gimme a break. It's a beauty.

Ken Shepard
08-04-2009, 9:19 PM
Wow, a workbench for working wood, what a novel idea. I was beginning to think that workbenches were an end in themselves, to be waxed and polished and admired, but never exposed to anything that might cause a scratch.

Great job - I want one just like it.

Jacob Mac
08-04-2009, 9:41 PM
Nice work. Great execution on the bench. I really like the vises. I am building a similar bench, but I blew my money on some LV planes instead of the vises. Decisions, decisions...

Did you have trouble with the DF splintering? I am trying to plane my top, and even with chamfered edges, I am still encountering blow out.

sean m. titmas
08-04-2009, 9:41 PM
i really like the handwheels for the vices. it looks like some valve body on a WWII submarine. very cool.

Danny Thompson
08-04-2009, 10:37 PM
That is possibly the best looking bench I've ever seen!

How thick is that chop? That isn't Douglas Fir, is it? A single board? From the BORG?

Nice shots. Nice write-up. Nice Bench.

Raney Nelson
08-04-2009, 11:41 PM
Hey all,

Thanks for the kind words. A couple answers: Yup. I really like the vises. A lot. I think the approximately 75/25 split in resources (75% of the bench's cost went for hardware, 25% for the wood) is a good one - but definitely a different approach than I took with my first handtool bench 5 or so years ago. My impression is that the bench itself may or may not last the remainder of my days - but I fully expect the vise hardware will be completely functional a century or two from now. I like the handwheels, too... I was a submariner in my service days, and the handwheels always make me think of the hatch gear. Something it was always nice to see, as it usually meant the end of a long op.

Also - I forgot to mention that the only non-BORG wood in the bench is the chop for the leg vise, and the deadman. Both are made from 8/4 Ash. I think the fir w

Like I said - I really don't have anything against pretty benches My old one is a very nice trestle base, Ash surface, and black walnut skirts. It was very pretty. I almost felt bad beating it senseless making furniture on it... almost. Unfortunately, its beauty was in no way matched by its usefulness. It was built by someone who learned most of what they wanted in a bench from a book - not from woodworking.

I've been looking over Jr. Strasil's bench posts recently and wishing more people would put up their benches - and not just the really nice looking ones.

One more thing - I keep forgetting to give Wilbur Pan credit for it, but his posts earlier this year about his DF workbench build that got me thinking a little differently about benches. Wilbur's got a very good knack for cutting through the extraneous information and trappings, and stripping woodworking down to what really counts. It's a very good trait.

Robert Rozaieski
08-05-2009, 8:18 AM
Nice job Raney! Love it! After using both a softwood bench and my current hardwood bench, I'm in complete agreement with you. Softwood makes a better bench.

John Schreiber
08-05-2009, 8:37 AM
Love your bench, love your hardware, and I especially love your posting.

When I'm building, I'm often thinking through how I'm going to describe my work here on the Creek. Usually the cleverness and humor falls short and I end up posting something boring or not at all. Not with your post.

Congratulations on a job well done.

Gary Herrmann
08-05-2009, 9:45 AM
Nice job on the bench, Raney. I just informed the CFO that when I finally get out from underneath of my current backlog of projects that I'm going to look very hard at those vises.

I then threatened to use the cherry for my son's loft bed for the bench. That didn't go over too well...

Jim Koepke
08-05-2009, 1:46 PM
Very nice indeed.

My experience may offer one tip. The only finish one needs on a bench to do glue ups is a large piece of cardboard. One of the handiest "finishes" in my shop.

The Veritas clamp on the dead man is also a good touch.

jim

Richard Dooling
08-05-2009, 2:03 PM
That's a very nice, functional bench and a refreshing attitude! I'm also in the softwood bench clan. I built mine out of softwood because of the money but now I'm glad I did because it makes woodworking sense. I did lay in a strip of maple for the dog holes but I wonder if that was even necessary.

Man I would love to get that hardware but $$$$$$$$$$$$$$................

Raney Nelson
08-05-2009, 2:04 PM
Very nice indeed.

My experience may offer one tip. The only finish one needs on a bench to do glue ups is a large piece of cardboard. One of the handiest "finishes" in my shop.

The Veritas clamp on the dead man is also a good touch.

jim

Good tip Jim - I actually have a 2 x 3 sheet of masonite living on the floor under the bench for just this purpose. I also have my poor 'old' bench still in the shop for glue-ups when need be. It's serving as outfeed table and supplemental 'storage' space :)

Jim Koepke
08-05-2009, 2:07 PM
One of my thoughts on making another bench is to make it the same height as my current bench so they could be lashed together for a bigger surface when needed.

My current bench feels a little low to me, so maybe just putting some "platform shoes" on the current bench would be the way to go.

jim

Chris Tsutsui
08-05-2009, 2:34 PM
Wow, nice work.

The only thing that my "particle board" work bench beats is a cardboard box... :D

David Keller NC
08-05-2009, 7:05 PM
"It’s also unfinished. Completely. So far, not so much as a coat of paste wax. I’m not sure I’ll be able to stick to that strategy (it means I can’t do ANY gluing on the bench)."

Sure you can - I do it all the time, and there's no finish on my bench, either. You just need to be reasonable on the glue amounts - lots of extra glue just means lots of extra squeeze-out, and doesn't strengthen the joint any. And anything that drips off is an easy wipe with a damp paper towel.

Ron Petley
08-05-2009, 7:15 PM
Well their have been other bench threads, and I enjoy them all.
This one is good as I am building one myself and of course using soft wood, which is on hand. I have not got to he hardware stage yet so looking at yous is a great help.
My old one had a plywood top so the glue thing was no biggie, I am sitting on the fence with this one, may fall to the side of beat it up and get on with it glue and all. Cheers Ron.

Raney Nelson
08-05-2009, 7:28 PM
Sure you can - I do it all the time, and there's no finish on my bench, either. You just need to be reasonable on the glue amounts - lots of extra glue just means lots of extra squeeze-out, and doesn't strengthen the joint any. And anything that drips off is an easy wipe with a damp paper towel.

David - how long have you been using an unfinished bench? My suspicion, especially when I started thinking about the japanese traditions, is that there's really no reason not to leave the bench unfinished - after all, I'm just going to take a few thousandths off the surface every year or so flattening it - but it does feel somehow 'risky'. No reason for it I can think of other than 'conditioning'...

So far I have no inclination to put anything on it. I do quite like the surface.

Jim Foster
08-05-2009, 8:52 PM
Strange as it seems, sometimes hardwood may be the right choice. I've looked at three local Home Depot's, they carry Hemlock Fir, and the long 2x12 boards have pretty nasty knots and other issues. They do not carry Doug Fir in any reasonable sizes for my bench. I've found a supplier with 2"x12"x28' green Doug Fir at 40$ a board, but it's been sitting outside uncovered for a long time, and it looks like it. So, I can get rough Oak for about $2 per board foot, but I'm still undecided. Luckily I am not starting this for a little bit, so I can ponder a while longer.

Nice Bench by the way! I'm trying not to get carried away with the benchcraft vises you've used, but it's not easy.

Jeff Skory
08-06-2009, 1:51 AM
Raney, thank you for the enjoyable post! You have a good knack for storytelling. I'm about halfway done with my Schwartz Roubo bench but am just going with the leg vise, nothing fancy.

Dan Karachio
08-06-2009, 8:24 AM
Raney, this is really nice. Fantastic actually. I downloaded your pics and they are in my "bench pics" folder. Can I ask a question from your experience please? Can you tell us about finding good wood at the Borg, what sizes you bought, how you worked with it... I am also in an area that has fir and no SYP. I have looked at my local Borgs and it seems that I would have to sort through 20 boards for one good one.

Kevin McMichael
08-06-2009, 8:37 AM
I am in the process of building one, BTW I love the dovetail on the end. I am considering one of the benchcrafted vises. If one only wanted to spend money on one vise I am assuming it would be the leg vise..........do you agree.

Raney Nelson
08-06-2009, 9:22 AM
Thanks all,

A couple of answers:

Dan - I don't know that I can help much on finding good wood at the BORG... this was a single, very happy event. My local carries KD 4x4's, but normally they're not particularly good - I'd say your 1 in 20 estimate is pretty accurate. FOr whatever reason, this one pallet I ran across was almost entirely crammed with really nice boards. My suspicion is that the mill ran out of #2/btr graded wood and had to fulfill an order with higher graded timbers...

I also used several 2x10 and 2x12s for the undercarriage. This is green, and in my experience, the best of the wood goes into the larger sizes. 2x4 and 2x6's are almost always pretty knotty and beat up, but in the 2x10 and 12s you can often get some nice clear sections, and work around the 'problem' areas.

I know Wilbur spent several months or more cherry picking from his local Borg(s) so he may be able to offer more guidance.

Kevin - If I had to pick one of the BC vises or the other, I'm not entirely sure which I'd opt for. The Glide is really amazing, but the way I work, the tail vise sees a lot more use than the glide does. I know Chris Schwarz has said that he thinks the next-best-thing to the BC tail is a QR vise, configured as he has it in the Holtzappfel bench, so that would seem a really good possibility. In my shop, though, the fact that the Tail vise's screw is fixed means I don't need any extra space at the right of the bench - that's a huge 'plus' for me. I suspect I would have gotten the tail vise and made a leg vise myself, doing my best incorporating some of the ideas in the Glide (especially the rollers).

Hope that helps

Wilbur Pan
08-06-2009, 10:27 PM
Raney, this is really nice. Fantastic actually. I downloaded your pics and they are in my "bench pics" folder. Can I ask a question from your experience please? Can you tell us about finding good wood at the Borg, what sizes you bought, how you worked with it... I am also in an area that has fir and no SYP. I have looked at my local Borgs and it seems that I would have to sort through 20 boards for one good one.

Here's my experience with borg lumber for workbenches. Here in NJ, the 2x material is all green Douglas fir. Just one of the borgs around me happens to carry 8 foot long kiln dried Douglas fir 4x4's. Not all of them do, not by a long shot. Raney seems to have found the only other borg in NJ that carries the same stuff, although many of them carry pressure treated 4x4's that I would never use for a workbench project.

As Raney said, I cherry picked that borg's 4x4 pile, looking for 4x4's that were knot free along one face for at least 6 feet, and were also quartersawn. I would come away with 2 or 3 useful boards out of the pile. Then I would wait a month and go back. It's just as well -- I've been using a Toyota Camry as my lumber transport, and suffice it to say that I've figured out how to get three 8 foot 4x4's into a Camry, and that's all that's going to fit. ;)

Like Raney, for the legs of my workbench I used a 2x12, cut down to size and laminated into the 5"x5" legs that I wanted. It took me a while to find a 2x12 with the grain orientation that I wanted. One useful skill I learned from all this cherry picking: I got real good at predicting what a board would be like just by looking at the edge and the endgrain.

One other thing I've found about construction lumber at the borg: the species available seem to be very dependent on location. All of the borgs around here carry Douglas fir 2x material. Go into Delaware, and hemlock fir is all you'll find. Of course, in Ohio where the Schwarz is, it's all SYP.

But in the end, all you need for workbench material is something that's dense, stiff, and cheap. Douglas fir and SYP both fit this description to a tee. So does Jim's $2/bd. ft. oak supply.

jim hedgpeth
08-06-2009, 10:51 PM
Those hand wheels are a nice idea, the $$ for those vices though.....wow!

You were right, that bench is gawd awful, you should give it away immediately, to me.:D
Jim

rick fulton
08-10-2009, 1:21 AM
Wow Raney, that is a sweet bench. I have to agree, it sure beats some of those pretty-boy benches (mine in particular). Not that yours ain’t perdy. Yours is pure function but great looking too.

In your modesty, you forgot to mention other functions that your bench kicks booty in.

Stout legs – Are those 5x5’s like Wilbur’s or larger. I can’t imagine there is any racking going on there no matter what activity you plan to use the bench for.

The sliding dead-man - The only thing better may be a sliding deadwoman ( http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/I+Guess+Its+A+Deadwoman.aspx ). Unlike a vise, that feature is hard to retrofit onto most workbenches. A must have for my next bench.

Dovetailed smoother – Nice stealth gloat. Is it an antique, a new premium vendor, a kit build, or self-made? I’d like to see some close-ups of that also.

The Benchcrafted vises are certainly robust and I’m sure worthy of all the praise they get on this and other forums. The chrome wheels and rosewood knobs give your bench a real tricked out look – are you sure you don’t also need some bloodwood racing stripes running down the length of your bench to really pimp it out? ;-) Nah, I wouldn’t either.

BTW, what is that you use for padding on your leg vise?

Thanks for sharing.

Raney Nelson
08-10-2009, 10:08 AM
Thanks Rick,

A couple of answers - the legs are indeed 5x5. And no - the bench doesn't rack. I've tried.

I thought long and hard about putting a sliding leg vise on this, but to be honest I think the deadman covers 95% of what I'd want it for, and it doesn't take up valuable space at the front of the bench.

I made the smoother - Thanks!

The leather on the leg vise is included with the vise... it's a perforated suede, and it works really well for this application.

Tim McEneany
04-16-2010, 10:19 PM
How do you handle the dog hole over the leg? Do you simply use a shortened dog or did you chop into the leg?