Cast Iron Bandsaw wheels

[Jerome Hanby]

The current thread on buying or passing on the old delta 14" bandsaw got me thinking. When you read through almost anyone's guide to picking a good bandsaw, they mention cast iron wheels. I've googled several times but can't find any evidence of cat iron wheels that fit the Delta/Rockwell 14" saws? Is there any such beast? If so, would it be a desirable upgrade?

[glenn bradley]

I run a 39 year old 10" Delta that has plastic wheels; I don't think cast iron wheels would really make it better. On the other hand I don't think replacing the cast iron wheels on my 17" with a cast alloy wheel would necessarily make it bad.

The 14" size is great for home shops and does a wide range of work. Many folks have tuned them up to be wonderful machines without going to the extreme of wheel replacement. I'd take that money and put towards a motor (read with Tim Allen grunt) argh, argh, argh.

[Jerome Hanby]

Cool, I kind of read that into the fact that no cast iron replacements were to be found. New motor is on my short list. Figured I'd get the new base built, new tires put on, and riser kit installed first.

Maybe time to realize, I just prefer tinkering with shop stuff more than building "useful" items:p

[Pete Bradley]

IF you define "upgrade" as "a replacement part claimed to make the machine better even when replacing a new part", I'm of the opinion that there's no "upgrade" for a 14" saw that's worth buying. If something's worn out (tires, belt, bearings, etc) then of course you need to fix that, but the notion that a "better" part will give dramatically better performance is best left to marketers.

The only possible exceptions are a riser block and a new motor, and even with the new motor I'd recommend reviewing your blade selection first. Save your pennies and upgrade to a bigger machine. *That* will make a real difference.

Pete

[george wilson]

As long as the wheels are ROUND,and not out of round,they will be fine.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I'd think that a very slight case could be made that the extra mass of the cast iron wheels would absorb vibrations a bit more. Kind of like a flywheel. You're not really talking much weight on a 14" wheel though, so just buy good blades and forget about it. IMHO anyhow.

[William Falberg]

The weight difference between a 14" cast wheel and aluminum IS "significant" where start-up HP is concerned. Why in the world you'd want a "flywheel" effect on a BS is still beyond me. What was the question again? Oh, yeah, vibration. Move your turntable over to the records shelf and they'll play just fine. Get a new needle. Get a carbide-tipped blade while you're out.

[ian maybury]

Hi all, i've just joined up. I'm a hobby woodworker who has recently decided to go professional - design and build of high end furniture. It'll be a learning curve, but at my age it was now or never. I'm upgrading most of my machinery, and am in research mode.

Just speculating, but it's hard to imagine a cast iron wheel being any better than a properly designed alloy item in simple structural terms - flatness, concentricity, trueness of circle even under load etc. The dynamics might be different enough to have an effect, however.

The weight could well as Steve says be a significant factor in preventing vibration. My 12 inch Scheppach Basato 5-4 with alloy wheels when starting deep cuts in some materials (over 6 inches) using a coarse 3 tpi hook tooth blade will sometimes get into a mode of vibration which as far as i can tell is the result of a large number of teeth biting all at once and then releasing. It happens at the start of cut only, and is avoided or minimised if you feed very gently until the cut is established.

The blade seems to stop or slow for an instant when it bites, and then move on only to bite again. This presumably has the effect of creating a rotational vibration in the whole drive. (blade, wheels, belt, motor)

Heavier wheels might have the flywheel effect needed to minimise this slowing or pulsing, and in addition might just have the effect of tuning out whatever resonance it is that gets going by changing the natural frequency at which the system wants to vibrate.

Heavier is not necessarily better in this regard, the objective is simply to change one of the variable (blade speed is another) so that the vibe is tuned out. It'd be hard to go much lighter than alloy though.

This is only slightly informed speculation, it could for example be that the vibration i'm seeing is caused by deflection of the mild steel febricated chassis.

But it might be interesting to play with replacing wheels with cast iron types if they could be found to fit, or maybe more conveniently to see what the effect of weighting the wheels might be. Balance would be an issue, it'd be a case of maybe machining a thickish sheet metal ring (or even one for each side) so that the OD fit accurately within the rim to locate it. Material out near the rim would give the greatest effect.

I don't know how much of an issue the additional starting load might be for the motor..

PS Here's another crazy bandsaw tuning thought. A mild steel chassis as in the case of my machine is inevitably much more subject to vibration than say a cast iron one. Has anybody ever tried anything crazy like filling the box section chassis with cement??

[george wilson]

Ian. You probably would have to wait much longer for cast iron wheels to ever slow down when you are wanting to stop the bandsaw. Cast iron is probably better at damping vibration,but the whole machine needs to have mass,not just the wheels.

I don't know where you're going to find those cast iron wheels that will fit,though. Probably would also have to have different shafts made to fit the wheels,bearings,etc.. If I was to go to that trouble,I'd also put the wheels into my lathe and take a light truing up cut. Then,there's the problem of balancing them again.

I once trued up a repaired aluminum wheel from a Crescent bandsaw. Crescent made superb machinery,and aluminum was good enough for them. this wheel had gotten badly broken,and welded back together. Was not real round. I got it into my lathe's gap,which will swing 24",and made it perfectly true again. This was done for free on a promise that this person would sell me the next load of Brazilian rosewood,1000# of it,at no price reduction,just the favor. He did,and I still have most of it. He had gotten 2 pickup trucks from an old barn in upstate New York. The wood was cut in 1960. Someone else had beaten me to the first load.

Another time,a maintenance shop asked me to grind the rubber tire on an 18" Yates bandsaw true. This was a real nice art deco old bandsaw in very fine condition.

About loading the frame with concrete: Is it the Oneway modern wood lathes that you can load sandbags into the tubular frame? I would think sand might be better than concrete at damping vibrations since it isn't rigid like concrete. Might or might not be possible to use sand,though,depending upon the design of the frame,might pour out,etc..And,we don't want loose sand getting into the machine. Could you drop in sandbags?

Are there electric wires running inside the frame? My 14" old model Delta has wires inside the column. Concrete would complicate that problem,and is pretty non reversible.

Other than that,I don't see why you couldn't pour concrete into the frame,provided it doesn't EXPAND when it dries. Remember,you won't be getting it back out,and be sure the frame of the machine can take the weight.

[William Falberg]

Chattering is more a blade geometry problem than a wheel vibration problem and using variable-pitched blades should fix that. Vibration doesn't concern me until it gets irritating. That's pretty subjective stuff and I can't quantify it in any meaningful terms so I'll bow out there, but if was a BIG concern I'd think you'd want to balance your wheels dynamically. It's relatively expensive to do but if it floats yer boat.............................
Static balancing is usually good enough. I, personally, like to feel a little vibration so I know when the machine is on. In a working environment I've often forgotten to turn the saw off; luckily I never touched a blade at those times. I treat them like loaded guns out of habit in any case. I've seen no evidence that minor machine vibration affects the quality of the cuts. I am, however, going to try shooting whip cream inside my frame.

:>)

[Steve Rozmiarek]

The startup hp issue is maybe a moot point IMHO. I have a 36" Oliver that runs a 5hp motor. It starts much slower then the little Delta sitting beside it. You simply wait a few seconds more for it to come up too speed. It does take longer to idle down as well. Once all that mass gets moving, it's the best saw I've ever used.

On a 14" machine, the extra flywheel weight will cause the motor to use startup amps a little longer, but I bet nothing would need changed.

Still doubt it would be a valuable "upgrade" on a 14" saw though. Spend the money on some really massive old cast iron saw, and fix the problem once and for all!

[george wilson]

Is it even possible to buy usable 14" cast iron wheels for the Delta?

[Jerome Hanby]

Is it even possible to buy usable 14" cast iron wheels for the Delta?

Think that's what I asked about when I posted the first message:D

[george wilson]

things go astray!!

[William Falberg]

Keep the ashtray off the table if your saw vibrates.

[george wilson]

Is it true that a chair is an a** tray?

[Jeff Willard]

Is it even possible to buy usable 14" cast iron wheels for the Delta?

Possibly. Before I bought my current bandsaw, I had a Craftsman clone of the Delta. Any parts I needed, I bought from Powermatic, as their 14", the Jet 14", and the Craftsman have virtually identical frames. I checked the Powermatic bearings for compatibility. Same bearing. The Powermatic has iron wheels. If the Delta uses the same bearings, or bearings with the same I.D. as the PM, they'll fit. The PM wheels, IIRC, are about $50 each. If I were a gambler, I'd be willing to bet that the bearings are the same.

[Jerome Hanby]

Jeff, thanks for the info. I may check into the PM wheels!

[ian maybury]

Guess i was speculating more than seriously proposing weighting the wheels - although in the end it depends on the source of the vibration.

When i say vibration on my Scheppach i don't mean the sort likely to come from out of balance Wheels - it's sounds more like some sort of chatter/whine from the blade. Yet it doesn't seem to be coming from the guides. A variable pitch blade might well sort it William, although they don't seem to be readily available over here.

I guess a proper cast iron machine is the real answer, but the Scheppach is otherwise a very capable machine - it'll peel off a thin slice of veneer like material from thick hardwood no problem.

I think i may try your sandbag idea George, it's at least reversible. The frame certainly has a microswitch for the door open interlock mounted inside....

[Pete Bradley]

The Powermatic has iron wheels. If the Delta uses the same bearings, or bearings with the same I.D. as the PM, they'll fit.
I wouldn't take that to the bank. It's not unlikely, but it depends if the two makers use the same method to attach the wheels, use the same shoulder (or no shoulder) for the bearings, etc. In any case the whole notion of replacing the wheel material to upgrade a 14" saw is just silly. I sometimes wonder if people would buy bandsaw tension spring lotion if someone touted its benefits on a woodworking forum and it came in a choice of 3 colors.

Pete

[Wilbur Pan]

I once trued up a repaired aluminum wheel from a Crescent bandsaw. Crescent made superb machinery,and aluminum was good enough for them.

Crescent didn't really use aluminum wheels as a rule until after WWII, according to catalogs of the period. Cast iron wheels were pretty much the rule until that point. And even then, the very large Crescent bandsaws (30" and 36") were using cast iron wheels. It was only the 20" Crescent bandsaw of that era that used aluminum wheels, and 20" Crescent bandsaws prior to that time had cast iron wheels.

This transition also coincided with the sale of Crescent to Rockwell. If you look at the bandsaws that Crescent was making prior to the Rockwell era, it's pretty clear that the 20" Crescent/Rockwell bandsaw with aluminum wheels doesn't share the same DNA as the original Crescent bandsaws.

[george wilson]

I'm sure they still cut just fine,as do my favorite saws,the 20" Deltas,for a really good saw that isn't 8' tall. Believe me,I am not someone who likes to see aluminum used on tools,certainly NOT planes and hand tools. I think that for this application it is fine. cast iron wheels take a lot longer to stop running,when you want to turn off the dust collector,and get on with a job after using the bandsaw.

[Jerome Hanby]

Is one of the colors red? I've been looking for a red spring so the blood splashes aren't as obvious.



I wouldn't take that to the bank. It's not unlikely, but it depends if the two makers use the same method to attach the wheels, use the same shoulder (or no shoulder) for the bearings, etc. In any case the whole notion of replacing the wheel material to upgrade a 14" saw is just silly. I sometimes wonder if people would buy bandsaw tension spring lotion if there was a glossy ad saying it improved spring elasticity and came in a choice of 3 colors.

Pete

[george wilson]

Blast you,Pete!! I was about to introduce low friction spring lotion to the market,and live off the profits!!

[Bill White]

George,
I'll take a quart. :D
Bill