Jointer tolerance

[William Harrison]

Looking for a little help.

So I just purchased a jointer. I checked the settings of the outfeed table to the shelix cutter head knives. I found the blade on one end of the outfeed table to be a little higher than the blade at the other side of the cutterhead. For the fun of it I checked the infeed table. It is dead on with the cutterhead blades.

Not being an expert I assumed this means the outfeed table is not in the same plane with the infeed table/cutterhead. So I how much out of whack is it?

Using a dial caliper I determined the outfeed table is slightly more than .003 higher on one side versus the other.

So is this normal? I can't find specs but I would think the outfeed table need to be exactly level with the cutterhead knives and the infeed table.

If this is out of whack and if so how do I fix it?

Thanks for any input and help.

[Brian Kent]

I think that much is intentional so that the out feed side will hold the board flat after some material is removed (in your case .003").

[Matt Armstrong]

I think that much is intentional so that the out feed side will hold the board flat after some material is removed (in your case .003").

I don't think he means that axis is askew, I think he means it's actually rotated with respect to the cutterhead (meaning the end near the fence is lower or higher than the end further from the fence)

In that case, I'd correct it.

[William Harrison]

Sorry if my post was confusing.

The outfeed table closest to the fence is lower than the other side near the where you stand. It's .003 lower on the side of the fence than where you stand.

Hope that makes more sense.

Would I correct the issue by shimming the one side where it is lower? Or is shimming just one side not a good idea?

thanks again

[Tom Adger]

Did you buy the jointer new or used? Your post just says purchased. Do you have the manual? If not, go to the mfgr website, and download it. It will tell you how to adjust the tables.

The tables have to be dead flat to each other, both in length and across, and in an "X". You can get a 48"(and longer) accurate straight edge from the big orange store, lowes, online, etc for not much money. You can also use a Wixey Angle Indicator. This is one of the most useful little tools I have. Zero it on one of the tables, then go to the other. You can also use a dial indicator from one table to the other across the cutter gap. This is the most accurate for that measurement.

The knives have to dead level with the outfeed table, all of them, one end to the other. You adjust the knives to the outfeed table, and not the other way around.

[Philip Rodriquez]

With SC jointers, you may need to shim the cutter-head to get it perfect with the tables. I have a 10" SC jointer and my cutter head, after shimming, is within .001" from back-to-front. I think it was .005 before. The process only takes a few minutes.

As another poster pointed out, the tables should be in perfect alignment.

[William Harrison]

Thanks for the responses.

However if I adjust the cutterhead to the outfeed table then the infeed table will be out alignment. I figure right now the infeed seems to be inline with the cutterhead so I need to adjust the outfeed table.

It's a new laguna 8" and as far as the manual goes it is no help.

I get the feeling from the responses I definitley need to fix the situation.

thanks

[Tom Hintz]

With a new machine lke that, call Laguna! It's always best to talk right to the manufacturer as they have the real info on their machines and the most experience with them.

[glenn bradley]

I'm with Tom. I would not futz around with a premium priced machine, I would want it right. If my Griz was out a bit, I would look at the price, shrug and deal with it myself.

Now, "right" may be a matter of accepted tolerances. If .003" is in spec then, its already "right". How are your results when you use it? If you joint tow sides and run a square along the corner, is it OK?

[Dan Friedrichs]

I just finished tuning-up a very poorly cared for 8" jointer, and I'd say that 0.003" is more error than I'd tolerate. This is probably one of the only woodworking tools where everyone agrees that thousanths of an inch really do matter.

Your outfeed table needs to be equidistant from the cutterhead on both sides, to within a thousanth of an inch or better (IMHO). Then, if you know the infeed table is also parallel to the cutterhead, that means the infeed and outfeed are coplaner.

Simple test: go run an 8" wide board through it, and hold a straightedge up to each edge of the board. Presumably, one edge will be straight, while the other will be cupped or bowed by some measurable amount.

[William Harrison]

thanks again for all the response.

I am in contact with them. Well waiting for a return call. I didn't want to make the post longer than I already had but this is not the first one they sent me. This is the second and the first had the same issue just only .005 off. To their credit they sent me a new in 1 week. Well and now I'm just .003+ off. I was more fishing along the lines of if there was an easy fix or am I being too picky. Looks like I need to get this taken care of by them.

thanks one more time.

[Chip Lindley]

You adjust the knives to the outfeed table, and not the other way around.

The Poster has a Shelix head. There is NO knife adjustment on the Shelix! IF tables are co-planar, the head can be shimmed. IF the tables are otherwise out of alignment (as IS the case) they must be delt with First!

.003" is not much over 8 inches! Your jointing will probably not suffer. But it's a Brand New Laguna! Yes, Let them take care of it!!

[Tom Adger]

Chip. you say there is no knife adjustment on the Shelix, then you say that the heads can be shimmed. Isn't that a knife adjustment? I am not familiar with the Shelix, so I am just looking for a little enlightenment. At the end of the day, if the tables are coplaner(and they have to be) the knives must be level with the outfeed table. That's the most critical part of setting up a jointer.

[Chris Friesen]

Chip. you say there is no knife adjustment on the Shelix, then you say that the heads can be shimmed. Isn't that a knife adjustment?

It's not a knife adjustment, it's a cutterhead adjustment. With a regular cutterhead the height of each individual knife gets set separately using jack screws or some other mechanism. There are several adjustment screws for each knife and each knife must be aligned with the outfeed table.

[Tom Adger]

Chris, so what is the goal? If it's not adjusting individual knives, but a cutterhead adjustment, isn't the object to get it level with the outfeed table?

[Phil Thien]

Have you tried moving the outfeed table up/down, clamping/unclamping it, and testing again? I wonder how consistent that .003" is as you move the outfeed table up/down.

If it is very consistent, then I'd be inclined to add a shim (if the design of the jointer will allow it) under the side that is low.

I'd be inclined to use a single layer of aluminum tape, or some brass shim stock from the hardware store. But I really like that tape.

[Chip Lindley]

Tom, if you look at a Shelix cutter head, each carbide insert is held in place by an allen-head set screw. The screw registers the insert. There is no other adjustment other than the tight tolerances built into the design and machining of the head, carbide inserts, and set screws. A cutter-full of bolted-on inserts has no adjustment other than to be shimmed exactly to be parallel with the outfeed table.

As Chris explains above, on a conventional cutter head, we assume the cutter head has been shimmed parallel with the tables at the factory, or after a rebuilding. When mounting knives, each can be raised up/down with jack screws to a desired height, parallel with the table.

Old jointers (before the marvelous jack screws) relied rather on trial and error, even with knife setting gauges pressed down on a spring-loaded knife to achieve exact (sorta) height. Then, the jib screws were tightened to secure the knife.

Very OLD cutter heads had no springs and relied strictly on trial and error to set the knife height! Those MagnaSet gauges are somewhat useful in holding those knives at exact height before tightening the gibs.

During all this knife-setting activity, shimming the entire cutter was not indicated. Only upon initial manufacture, or perhaps after new bearings were mounted, was the cutter head shimmed parallel with the table. Suffice it to say, the cutter head is shimmed (adjusted) only Once! The knives are adjusted every time they are sharpened and inserted.

[george wilson]

Can you put shims under the housing that holds the bearings on one end of the cutter head?

When I bought a new Grizzly 8" jointer for my job before I retired,I noted that the bearings were held in round holders on each end of the cutterhead. There was 1 large screw holding down each of these bearing holders. Very easy to loosen one of the bolts and put some shims under it. However,the grizzly was perfectly aligned already.

I am not familiar with the Lagun. Can it be adjusted like that? I would not want .003" out across the table. That is enough to cause sniping on 1 side of the table. A piece of typing paper is .005".

[Chip Lindley]

Yes George, under the bearing journals is where any shims would go. Different thicknesses, .001" .002" .003" and .005" (shim brass (from a hobby shop) or shim stainless steel (auto supply store) can be cut and placed either side of the bolt hole to raise the offending low journal. It's all trial and error. Sometimes just tightening down the journal bolts will change the height a *thou* or two!

[William Harrison]

Thanks for all the information.

I am a little impatient so I have shimmed one side with brass shim material. When I measure now it's at most .001 off. So I am happy with that. I need to wait for a long straight edge from LeeValley to measure the specs from end to end. So for now a shim works. I will have to wait for a reply back from Laguna to see what they have to say. I am supposed to get a new manual with more guidance on specs and adjustments.

[Jeff Duncan]

If I may jump in and try to help....with a straight knife jointer as long as your infeed and outfeed tables are in perfect alignment, the knives can be set to the outfeed table so that the cutterhead itself doesn't necessarily have to be perfectly parallel to the tables. On the shelix style heads you cannot adjust a knife to make up this difference. So to make the fix one would need to shim the cutterhead itself, or shim both infeed and outfeed tables (not ideal solutions).
If both tables are accurate to each other which is what it sounds like, the only realistic option to me would be to shim the cutterhead. This isn't something I would do on a new machine. Now the caveat is that .003 may be within the allowed tolerances of their machine. This is a very small amount out and not exactly a top of the line machine. Only Laguna can tell you what's acceptable to them. Having said that my 16 jointer is out .002 - .003 along it's length and t doesn't adversely affect anything. See what Laguna says their tolerences should be, then go from there.
good luck,
JeffD

[Rick Lizek]

Tom, if you look at a Shelix cutter head, each carbide insert is held in place by an allen-head set screw. The screw registers the insert. There is no other adjustment other than the tight tolerances built into the design and machining of the head, carbide inserts, and set screws. A cutter-full of bolted-on inserts has no adjustment other than to be shimmed exactly to be parallel with the outfeed table.

As Chris explains above, on a conventional cutter head, we assume the cutter head has been shimmed parallel with the tables at the factory, or after a rebuilding. When mounting knives, each can be raised up/down with jack screws to a desired height, parallel with the table.

Old jointers (before the marvelous jack screws) relied rather on trial and error, even with knife setting gauges pressed down on a spring-loaded knife to achieve exact (sorta) height. Then, the jib screws were tightened to secure the knife.

Very OLD cutter heads had no springs and relied strictly on trial and error to set the knife height! Those MagnaSet gauges are somewhat useful in holding those knives at exact height before tightening the gibs.

During all this knife-setting activity, shimming the entire cutter was not indicated. Only upon initial manufacture, or perhaps after new bearings were mounted, was the cutter head shimmed parallel with the table. Suffice it to say, the cutter head is shimmed (adjusted) only Once! The knives are adjusted every time they are sharpened and inserted.

I've been adjusting and repairing machinery for 25 years and the older machines were the ones with the jack screws along with the machines without jackscrews, Oliver and Crescent, to name two without jackscrews. The spring loaded heads are a much more recent development, SCMI, Delta and many others have this. Setting these heads with the proper tools isn't a matter of trial and error at all. With my Dial indicator and special base I can rapidly, easily and very accurately set knives within .0005'. Some machines had knife jointing capabilities which are even more precise. Some of the high speed moulders have this feature built in. I've measured knife projection of magnaset jigs and those are pretty iffy, easily off by .005' or more depending on the care and experience of the operator.

Nothing wrong with the spring loaded knives on SCMI machines. They were pioneers in making knife setting simple and fast for the average woodworker so they could focus on woodworking and not machine adjusting. The Tersa knife even simplified things more. Dispozaknife is a simple retrofit for older heads to do the same. Insert tooling has been in the industry for years and only in the last few years has it come down to the hobby woodworker.

[Danny Burns]

Thanks for all the information.

I am a little impatient so I have shimmed one side with brass shim material. When I measure now it's at most .001 off. So I am happy with that. I need to wait for a long straight edge from LeeValley to measure the specs from end to end. So for now a shim works. I will have to wait for a reply back from Laguna to see what they have to say. I am supposed to get a new manual with more guidance on specs and adjustments.

Can you let us know how things work out in the end?

Thanks.

[george wilson]

Chip,I am a very experienced machinist. The picture below is a surveyor's compass I was commissioned to make for the late David Brinkley,newsman.I did not know if this model had the ability to have the bearing housings shimmed. I got a Bison 5C collet chuck to run to .0001" after machining a backplate for it in place on the lathe.Then,just by selectively tightening the already very tight 6 socket head cap screws that were holding it on,I got the chuck to run this true. It was about .0003" out when I just press fitted it to the backplate and tightened the screws. The interesting thing was how tight they already were before I tweaked it some more.

William: If you have a decent steel rule,you can tell if the cutterhead is parallel.Put the rule on 1 side of the table on edge,and set the outfeed table so the cutters just graze it enough to move it some when they are slowly rotated. Check the distance the rule is moved on each side of the outfeed table. Adjust the shims until the rule is moved exactly the same amount. If necessary,glue a small block of wood to the end of the rule that is not over the knives to make it stand on edge. As said above,you can get it more parallel probably without adding further shims.

.001" is not much,and you may be satisfied with it if you don't see noticable snipe when you edge joint a board on the inboard side of the table,then move the fence to the outboard side and repeat without moving any other adjustments.

[Simon Dupay]

Use the machine and see if there is any wrong before making ANY ADJUSTMENTS! You may make it worse then it is now. You may not even be measuring right .003" is not very much I use a jointer at work way more out then that and still will give you a good enough edge.

[george wilson]

I just advised him how to make practice cuts.

[William Harrison]

Wow lots of replies. So I am happy with the .001 and would have not made a stink if I had the tolerances for the machine. Since the machine was new I just wanted to know what are the tolerances. So far no call back from Laguana even though I have been told they would call me back and have an email sent to me with the specs. Very annoying that I don't get any calls back. However one nice aspect of Laguana so far is I get a human every time I call, which I have been doing. It's amazing how each time I call they tell me "I was just going to call" or "I was just working on it". Anyway I did not call them back the last 2 days because I wanted to give them some time. I will call them back for more information on Monday.

I like the idea of using a ruler to measure the cutterhead. I will do so this weekend.

thanks again everyone for the education.