I must remain calm, I must remain calm, I mus........

[Rick Potter]

Well, here I sit. It's oh-dark-thirty, and I have a kitchen that is literally gone, right down to and including the floor joists. We meant to redo the kitchen at a nice relaxed pace, one wall at a time. That is when we found out how out of flat the floor was.

So, down to the dirt it went, and my buddy the framer installed I-beam (TJI) floor joists 12" on center to hold up the new kitchen. For the last couple weeks we do dishes in the garage laundry sink, and cook in the microwave in the enclosed patio.

Meanwhile, for the last year, I had been buying up the best, straightest grained red oak I could find, a couple boards at a time. I also had made up nice sample pieces of oak, stained with every color Minwax makes, and also mixed several together till we had the perfect color (three parts Early American, and one part Red Oak, if you want to know). Then the bombshell hit this evening. My bride decided that maybe a MAPLE kitchen would look better.

Not a good time to start from scratch. Did I mention that the whole house has been under renovation or addition for four years?

AAARRRRGH.

Rick Potter

[Andrew Minear]

Rick....try working up a test piece of the red oak to show LOYL. Sand to 180 grit, fill the pores....I like Constantine's or Pore-O-Pac. And finish with a water based urethane. The color is quite different than red oak with poly, more like some maple finishes. It's worth a try.

Andrew

[Steve Leverich]

I would find a piece of maple, do a quick(did I mean sloppy, un-filled or sized) coat of some light stain, and show it to her along with your best oak test - I'd think there's a good chance the blotchy maple would re-sell the oak... :D

[Larry Edgerton]

You are looking at this all wrong!

I find Maple to be totally boring, but if that is what the little lady wants, that is what she should have.

Because now you will have a stash of nice red oak for other projects! So important to build up that stash.......;)

[Fred Belknap]

My wife is constantly comming up with remodeling ideas. Some are very good but sometimes I have to use the words, "Wont Happen No WAY". I got a nice dog house.:)

[Prashun Patel]

I feel your pain!
Just take deep breaths, stash your oak and start shopping for maple.
The pain you feel now is nothing compared to the stabs you'll get once (if) the oak goes up and you gotta hear 'I always wanted maple' for the rest of yr life....

[Robert Reece]

Hi Rick-

I have been remodeling for almost 6 years. It is 6 years ago almost to the day that we had a huge rain storm and my roof leaked a tiny, tiny bit. So I did the rational thing and dug a basement under my house and tore the roof off and put on a second story. 6 years later, I am wrestling with the kitchen, the last big project. Of course I have to work out some bugs in the shop first ... It's exciting stuff! Life is chaos, you better get used to it!

Specifically on your cabinets, I like maple more than red oak. However, I am sure you can determine what it is your wife likes about maple and possibly work the red oak towards what she likes. Or maybe not, might be easier to just move onto the maple and not worry about it. But since you have your kitchen down to nothing, you better get started!

Rob

[Mike Heidrick]

Much easier to do it right now than hear about it for the next 50+ years.

[Stephen Musial]

Speaking of the Doghouse, watch the whole thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyduncFpzl4

[Jamie Buxton]

On the oak versus maple decision... If you already bought materials for the job, you should at least bring her into the financial decision too. It is okay for a customer to change her mind. She just has to bear the price. Yeah, yeah, you're married to her, so you bear the price of her decision too, but still she should be thinking about that issue. She might decide that she likes maple, but isn't willing to pay a few more thousand dollars for it.

[Tom Godley]

I understand -- I have never stopped. I am attracted to old houses like some people are to puppies.

My last kitchen redo I did simple slab front cabinets made from beautiful figured maple -- I love the look. Then I added large hardware to set them off.

Oak is not my favorite unless it is given that "English Oak" treatment

[John Harden]

You know, I thought I heard an anguished scream from over near Upland last night. Now I know what it was. Thanks!! :D

FWIW, we had maple floors with a honey colored finish in a previous house. I loved them as I'm not a big fan of red oak. Now, we have mahogany floors in the new house and I really like them too, but they're dark and we have one and four year old crumb crunchers that leave little trails behind them.

We've since learned you can see EVERY piece of cracker, dirt, and dust on dark floors, no matter how small. On the upside, I can pilot a Swifter with the best of them. If my day job doesn't work out, I may go pro!!!

Good luck installing those maple floors!!!!!!!

Regards,

John

[Don Bullock]

Well, Rick I feel your pain. Wow what a shock. If she's been watching the home improvement shows, she "knows" that oak is "out dated." Frankly I have no advice because only you know how "serious" she is in her choice.

If you're looking to unload all that "hand selected" oak at a good price the LOML just gave me the OK to offer to take it off your hands. I have enough projects here, as in adding some Craftsman style room dividers, etc., to put it to "good use." We live in Fallbrook, so we're just over an hour away from Upland.

[Jerome Hanby]

Jedi mind trick? Oak is the new maple, oak is the new maple, ...

[Brian Effinger]

So, down to the dirt it went, and my buddy the framer installed I-beam (TJI) floor joists 12" on center to hold up the new kitchen. For the last couple weeks we do dishes in the garage laundry sink, and cook in the microwave in the enclosed patio.


Since you have the floor opened up and have easy access, I'd bury her in the dirt of the crawl space. :eek: :D

[Steve Jenkins]

Were you planning to do the floor in oak as well as the cabinets? If so I would still use oak for the floor. I remodeled my kitchen in our old house a few years ago and used natural red oak for the floor and select white maple for the cabinets. It looked great. The oak I bought FAS and milled it myself so it was a much higher quality than typical flooring. I tried to keep all the lengths around 5'.

[Matthew Hills]

Were you planning to do the floor in oak as well as the cabinets? If so I would still use oak for the floor. I remodeled my kitchen in our old house a few years ago and used natural red oak for the floor and select white maple for the cabinets. It looked great. The oak I bought FAS and milled it myself so it was a much higher quality than typical flooring. I tried to keep all the lengths around 5'.

Do you have a picture of this?
I'd be interested in seeing the final effect.

thanks,
Matt

[Phil Thien]

I agree w/ your wife. I don't like my red oak kitchen. I did it about ten years ago and next time I'm gonna do QS white oak, or maple.

[Peter Quinn]

I agree with your wife. i don't like ANYBODY'S red oak kitchen, red oak flooring, red oak anything. Yuck. I grew up in a house with a red oak kitchen. I always though my mother liked it until she retired and moved to FLA where she remodled the kitchen. I asked if she were going to do red oak and she said, "Gosh no, I'm SO sick of that nasty dark hole of kitchen in our old house (it had plenty of windows and natural light). That was crap the contractor that built it put in the house because it was cheap and he was cheap. It suck the life out of any room. I want something bright and warm like honey maple!" 25 years she lived with cabinets she hated. I hated them too.


Fill as many square feet of space as your average wall of cabinets occupies with oak and its bound to take on some of that Edwardian look without any of its majesty. Sort of like the Cracker Barrel. Nice place to visit. There is no stain on earth short of black aniline that can suppress its nasty salmon undertones, and that coarse grain doesn't do much for me either. Can you tell I'm not a fan? I know this post was not a pole but if it were I'd vote....

Maple is far more versatile, as or more durable, takes color well, doesn't require grain fill for a proper finish. It has a lot going for it. So does Alder, birch, cherry, almost anything really. About the only place I like red oak better is in a wood stove! Or maybe a Cracker Barrel restaurant. If your maple comes out blotchy, its time to work on the finishing skills. Otherwise, think of it as your wife saying "Honey, go buy your self some more wood."

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I feel the pain....Maple is a pill to stain and finish....never seems to look good IMNSHO. I agree...show her how good red oak can look.

[Rick Potter]

Well, the wife and I went shopping today for maple. We brought home a couple board, and I will be going throught the process of making samples with every stain known to man plus some home brew stuff.

We also brought home a couple sheets of melamine. This is only for the sink cabinet, as I am going to caulk and seal it against moisture, the rest of the cabinet interiors will be prefinished 3/4" ply, but none of it will show on the outside.

Shame on you greedy people for wanting my stash of hand picked oak. It will be used for cabinets in the new addition, the laundry room, or the rear entry hall.

I mentioned it once, but here's the deal. When we moved four years ago, I got a brand new shop, and she gets whatever she wants in the house. A deal is a deal. Soooo....maple cabinets it is, in the kitchen at least. I just swung a side deal with her that I get to make Green and Green cabinets out of the oak, in one of the above places.

Oh, did I also mentioned that I just spent almost 6 weeks redoing an empty rental, and the day the new tenants moved in, my other tenants moved out. Now I get to do it all over again, only with a house twice as big. This retirement stuff is not for sissies.

I did a red oak kitchen for our last house about 10 years ago, and we liked it real well, but, as someone mentioned.....my wife is a home improvement tv show junkie, and decided to try something else. At least she knows enough to not ask me to make it all out of melamine. I would be digging that hole.

Rick Potter

[Toney Robertson]

So, down to the dirt it went, and my buddy the framer installed I-beam (TJI) floor joists 12" on center to hold up the new kitchen.

Rick Potter

Rick,

Not a big deal but why 12" on center with the I-joists? Could you not get enough depth for the span? Did you want to go beyond L/480 which is a very stiff floor?

Toney

[Peter Quinn]

PPPPSSSSTTT: Minwax (or any pigment stain) on maple equals blotchy. Try dyes, wither alcohol or water based, toners, glazes. Not minwax. Its too dense and has no pores. And stop sanding at 150G or it glazes in spots and wont take a dye either. And congratulations.

[Don Bullock]

...

Shame on you greedy people for wanting my stash of hand picked oak. It will be used for cabinets in the new addition, the laundry room, or the rear entry hall.

It was worth a try since I wouldn't have to pay for shipping.



I just swung a side deal with her that I get to make Green and Green cabinets out of the oak, in one of the above places.

Congratulations! It may all turn our better for you after all.




... This retirement stuff is not for sissies.


You got that right! Now that SWMBO has retired too, I have even more "must do" projects. But, it sure beats getting up early and going to work every day.;):D

[Charles Wilson]

Join the crowd!

Chuck

[Rick Potter]

Toney, Toney, Toney.

You are going to regret asking that question. Trust me, this is the short version. After the contractor walked away with the money I borrowed to build the addition, I found out he had left the plans with a local architectural firm so they could be corrected. The city had a hissy fit over the way the contractor drew them. That is how I inherited Nasser, a hard headed Iranian structural engineer.

Now Nasser apparantly never learned to read a lumber span chart, and he redid the plans with any span over eight feet needing pilasters 24" square, and 24" deep, with girders to hold up the weight. Matter of fact, right next to the existing kitchen was an eight foot new extension which he determined needing TJI I-beams at 12" OC. This turned out so sturdy the Army wants to park tanks on it. Problem was, the adjoining existing floor was waaay out of plumb as well as pretty weak, considering the 1 1/8" ply on the old floor.

It was so weak that stuff in the refrigerator would rattle when someone walked by (need to start that diet). So, we duplicated the new floor using 11 7/8" I-beams on 12" centers.

My addition has enough concrete in it to build a new 3400 sq. ft. house according to the cement contractor. He said most commercial buildings do not have the footings I have. By the way, it is a single story building.

So...I now have the neighborhood earthquake shelter. Nasser and I had yelling screaming matches trying to come to an agreement on what he would approve. Even the city inspector just shakes his head when he inspects.

Don't get me started on the Hardie Panels.

Rick Potter

[Ben Davis]

I agree w/ your wife. I don't like my red oak kitchen. I did it about ten years ago and next time I'm gonna do QS white oak, or maple.
Boy a'in't that the truth! IMO red oak kitchens just don't have it. Totally a personal thing, I know. Oak furniture to me means one thing... QSWO in an A&C or mission style. Of course it helps a pile that those forms for furniture and design speak to me. Divided glass fronts, nice brown/honey/redish satin luster to the QSWO are things I dream up.

Maple also makes for fantastic cabs.

[Jack Ellis]

We should be getting our final inspection for a new, three story home at Lake Tahoe signed off on Monday. Design snow load is 240 psf and it has to withstand a pretty strong earthquake at that loading.

I don't think we have any floor or roof joists that are spaced at 12" OC - they're all 16" OC. Nassir is on another planet.

[Mark Boyette]

Oak makes a kitchen look dated.. haven't done one in many years. Just my opinion of course. Maple is nice but can be a pain to get the stain right. Stain doesn't penetrate well and can blotch as noted here earlier. To complicate things more the solid maple stains lighter than the maple ply but you have to lay it off a bit. Most of the kitchens I've been building the last 5 years are cherry. Cherry is timeless and never seems to go out of style. Stains well and has nice grain. It can blotch but after much experimenting I found that if I use Sherwin-williams "wood classics" I don't need to use any gel or conditioner. One step stain process. Most people think cherry comes out reddish but it can't be stained just about any color.
just another thing to consider. this is one I finished last month. color is slightly lighter than the stains you mentioned.
good luck.
Mark.
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/rockyrivermark/js1024_cherry_raised_panel_3.jpg

[Jim King]

My wife is the master of insults.. I work daily with many of the most beautiful exotic woods in the world and she wants painted cabinets in our new house.

[Rick Potter]

Mark,

That is an interesting idea, we hadn't thought of cherry. I will try Sherwin Williams and see what they recommend. Can you stain cherry any lighter? I have always thought it turned dark with the light anyway. Is this true if it is stained and varnished?

I have been playing with the maple I got, and it burns if you don't cut it at a fairly rapid rate. I am wondering how much sanding I will have to do on the router work, like the raised panels. Isn't cherry susceptible to this too??

Rick Potter

[Caspar Hauser]

"Isn't cherry susceptible to this too??"

Yes

[Paul Ryan]

I have to agree with a Oak kitchen looking BLAH if you ask me. Don't get me wrong I love red oak for furniture, our bed room set is made out of it, my boy's beds are made of it, the toy box, the shelf and lots of other things. But IMHO not the kitchen. We like funky things going on it the grain. I did out kitchen out of Hickory back in 02 and would do it again in a heart beat. But it isn't for everyone there are real interesting grains and colors going on. Cherry is real nice but darkens over time, as far as I under stand you cant stop the darkening of cherry. Maple is to dull for me as well, and personally I am not a fan of figured maple either. My grandmother has a birch kitchen that is really neat not as crazy as hickory but is not dull like maple or oak. I would do some more experimenting before you start building. But the red oak will always get used for something it is a great wood.

[Mark Boyette]

Birch is really a nice compromise. I made our entertainment center out of birch and like the grain and how it takes the stain.
The cherry is definitely easier to mill up compared to maple. The sherwin williams stain I've found to work best is the "wood classics" line. I tried the "sherwood" line but I needed to gel stain a base coat to even things out first
I've never build anything out of hickory but would like to in the future. I like the wild grain it has. Do you have any pics of your hickory kitchen? .
Mark.

[Paul Ryan]

Birch is really a nice compromise. I made our entertainment center out of birch and like the grain and how it takes the stain.
The cherry is definitely easier to mill up compared to maple. The sherwin williams stain I've found to work best is the "wood classics" line. I tried the "sherwood" line but I needed to gel stain a base coat to even things out first
I've never build anything out of hickory but would like to in the future. I like the wild grain it has. Do you have any pics of your hickory kitchen? .
Mark.


The hardest part of this kitchen was the sanding. Hickory is so hard it is really hard to sand. I used the left over chips and pieces in my smoker for years, the wood even smells like the hickory BBQ sauce you can buy.