Japanese vs. Western Chisels

[Nate Heffter]

My wife has asked that I put together a birthday/christmas wish list (this is pretty much my only time of the year to acquire new tools) and this year my attention has turned to chisels. So far I've worked with a crumby set of Bucks Brothers from HD that I've had to sharpen way too often. I would like to take this opportunity to jump up in quality dramatically, but not sure which direction to leap. My question is how would those who have experience compare a decent white steel Japanese chisel to something along the lines of Two Cherries or Hirsch? I switched from Scary sharp to waterstones last year and have been using the veritas jig with good results. I'm curious about ease of maintanance, rust prevention, etc, in addtition to just all around usability. I know that either way I go I'd probably be amazed in comparison to what I'm used to, but I'd like to get as much input as I can on the differences before I start accumulating either type.

Thanks to any and all who can offer their views.

[Dave Burnard]

I'd just get a couple of each and sharpen and use them. You may strongly prefer one over the other or find that they are good at different tasks.
Either way it sounds like you'll be making a nice step up.

[Lloyd Robins]

Hi! I have a couple of Ashley Ilses which I like, but I really like Nishiki chisels (especially the paring chisels.) I had some Two Cherries, which were very nice, but they just never felt right in my hand. In my very limited experience, most chisels will require about the same amount of care (from rust, etc.) The ability to hold an edge (and therefore the amount of sharpening necessary) seems to be the big difference. If I lived in an area with tool stores, I would handle as many types as I could, check with the group on the quality of steel, and then make a decision. I have to do the purchase and see type of choosing here in the desert of California. I got lucky with the ones I have. Good luck

[Michael Perata]

I bought two medium quality chisels from Japanwoodworker last year. Each one chipped the first or second time I used them. Big chips.

Seems the Japanese chisels work best on soft woods.

I now have a set of Robert Sorby bevel edged chisels that take an edge nicely, but the edge rolls after a bit of use. Had a opportunity to do a hands on with the new Lie-Nielsen chisels. VERY nice! Think I'll get a set.

[Mark Singer]

I have both and think trying both is a good idea. I have had no problems with the Japanese chisels. You need to select the correct one for the task.

[James Carmichael]

I have both and think trying both is a good idea. I have had no problems with the Japanese chisels. You need to select the correct one for the task.

So do you have a preference, Mark? Or do you find each style suited to different tasks?

[Mark Singer]

James,
I guess it depends on the task. The Japanese chisels hold an edge well and are great for paring. I also have Hirsch, Ashley Iles, Nootegoten...all very good. I have some older Stanley's and Marples. I use the mortise chisels for heavier jobs and older ones to rough out leaving the finer ones for paring and dovetails. It is nice to have a very small 1/8" or less for small dovetails. The longer chisels are better for 2 hand work. The Japanese chisels should be sharpened by hand and not even on the Tormek. Broad ones are handy for "rocking" to trim veneer or edge banding.

[Dave Burnard]

I bought two medium quality chisels from Japanwoodworker last year. Each one chipped the first or second time I used them. Big chips. Seems the Japanese chisels work best on soft woods.


Sorry to hear that, but it's a common complaint from new users of japanese chisels. It could be that you got a couple of bum chisels, but it's equally likely to be in your technique. Japanese chisels are much harder (on a Rockwell scale) than most western chisels and especially inexpensive modern ones (think Blue Chip). So you may have to unlearn some habits.

You don't want to use japanese chisels as prying tools to lever chips out of a mortice. You keep the chisel sharp and chop the waste out. Once you stop prying and start chopping you can cut mortices in any wood soft or hard.

[Chris Padilla]

Thanks for the tip, Dave...I'll have to try that with mine. Choping and paring and nothing else with Japanese chisels, right?

[Mark Singer]

Chris,
Shredding, dicing, choping, tossing ....you obviously need the Jeg a Matic...not sold in stores and if you act right now we will throw in a free set of steak knives!

[James Carmichael]

Chris,
Shredding, dicing, choping, tossing ....you obviously need the Jeg a Matic...not sold in stores and if you act right now we will throw in a free set of steak knives!

Wow, got my CC ready, where's the 800 number? Do they slice and dice, too?

[Bob Smalser]

You don't want to use japanese chisels as prying tools to lever chips out of a mortice...

I do that almost every day with Japanese chisels....mortise chisels are designed to lever out waste....if yours won't do it without chipping, there is something else wrong, either in technique or steel.

http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/Smalser_on_Mortises.htm

[Dave Burnard]

No disagreement here. Think of the term "pry" as having a lot of degrees of intensity. If you use a japanese chisel at Rockwell 65 vs a western pigsticker at Rockwell 58 (assuming they are both good quality steel carefully heat treated, etc). You'll be able to do more serious prying with the western pigsticker. You might have to adjust your technique when switching from one to the other...

The way I was taught to use japanese chisels in morticing involves very little prying - more like flicking the chips out of the way. The *harder* you pry the less time your edge will stay super sharp - and that super sharp cutting edge is why I'm using japanese chisels in the first place.

[Steve Beadle]

Hi, Dave. Nice to see another woodworker from Oregon visiting the Creek!

[Tim Sproul]

No disagreement here. Think of the term "pry" as having a lot of degrees of intensity. If you use a japanese chisel at Rockwell 65 vs a western pigsticker at Rockwell 58 (assuming they are both good quality steel carefully heat treated, etc). You'll be able to do more serious prying with the western pigsticker. You might have to adjust your technique when switching from one to the other...
Dave,

Here is my experience - I have Iyoroi japanese mortise chisels from Joel at toolsforwoodworking.com.

I mortised madrone - similar to hard maple both in density and workability. I cut 7/8 to 3/4 inch deep mortises in 6 passes....around 1/8 inch deep per levering. I did eventually get some microchipping on the edges...after about 8 mortises like this, each around 3 inches long. 1/8 inch deep chips - I had to pry, not simply flick them out. YMMV.

[Dave Burnard]

Dave,

Here is my experience - I have Iyoroi japanese mortise chisels from Joel at toolsforwoodworking.com.

I mortised madrone - similar to hard maple both in density and workability. I cut 7/8 to 3/4 inch deep mortises in 6 passes....around 1/8 inch deep per levering. I did eventually get some microchipping on the edges...after about 8 mortises like this, each around 3 inches long. 1/8 inch deep chips - I had to pry, not simply flick them out. YMMV.

Iyoroi-san makes very nice chisels. Madrone can sure be pretty - assuming you can get it to dry straight.

1/8" deep passes sound like what I'd try for - I'd make a pass down the sides of the mortice once in a while depending on the grain of the wood to help free up the chips. How wide were the mortices? Anyway, that's 24" of wood 3/4" deep removed so a little edge breakdown would be normal. You could try my technique and see if the edges hold up any better, but probably not.


When I cut the DougFir joinery for my timberframe shop I didn't see any chips in any of my timber chisels' blades and I was using a big 570g or 750g hammer and making piles of wood chips. The only blade chip that occurred was in a beautiful mokume slick that hit a small stone embedded in a bark inclusion around a knot. I heard it happen and still haven't gotten over it.:(

Here's what I see some people do... Drive a chisel deep into maple or even doug fir and then try to remove the chips all the way to the depth of the chisel cut. If the individual cuts are close together they can do that because the chips free themselves, but if they're not there's no way the microscopic tip of the chisel can survive a really reluctant chip and still stay intact. One can deflect that very sharp edge by running a fingernail along underneath it (point load). Once it's no longer very sharp chipping seems more likely to occur.

Happy morticing to all!

[Nate Heffter]

Wanted to say thanks to everyone who lent me their 2cents in helping me to select some new chisels. In looking around I found this special set of Two Cherries bench chisels at a really good deal - too good to pass up it turns out. $55 spent here leaves plenty of room in the budget to supplement with a couple of Japanese chisels, or a mortising, or some paring....

Craftsman Studios has them for $55
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/L!5001501.htm

while tools for working wood lists them at $90
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=75dbe7309d8423fdaee84d80ec 774776&Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=EE-5009050&Category_Code=CTC

[Brian Buckley]

Nate,

It is my understanding that two cherries has a promotional set of four chisels that are not the same quality as their regular chisels. I am not sure if this is true, but you should check.
I have quite a few sets of chisels includeing the Two Cherries. They are very nice and hold an edge very well. It is my opinion that the LN chisels are as good as they get. They are very expensive, but better than anything else I have includeing Barr.
You will find as many opinions on chisels as there are brands. If you go with a good brand and one that fits your hand and method of use you will be happy.

[Nate Heffter]

I THINK the only difference is that they are unpolished, whereas the normal chisels come mirror polished, and with a slightly different handle. At Tools for Working Wood they are offered for about 15 bucks less than the polished set - though I'm more hopeful than certain that the set I ordered from Craftsman Studios are the same set. It seemed like a great deal (price close to Marples, but superior chisel) though I'd be dissapointed if it the differences are more than cosmetic. Anybody else familiar with this line?

[Gerard Langlois]

I have a set of pfiel chisels,which chip if I attempt to pry out chips while chopping a mortice. So I purchased three Sorby mortice chisels which are much more stout and never chip but would be unacctable for fine dovetailing work. My stanley contractor chisels are perfect for chopping through knots and nails. I guess its like anything else, use the right tool for the job.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Bob, I'd bet Chris is talking about bevel edge chisels and not mortise chisels.