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jim hedgpeth
07-31-2009, 2:24 PM
Of the chisels I have looked at in person, I like the Japanese style best so far. I have been wondering why not use dovetail chisels for general work. Is it just that they are a bit more delicate? With the price of good chisels I won't be beating on them very hard, dovetail or not, that's what my old ones are for.

Anyone have a good way of laying out what the big differences (other then shape) are between dt and bench chisels?

Jim

Sean Hughto
07-31-2009, 2:37 PM
You probably need to be more specific about what chisels you are talking about. A lot of manufacturers use "DT chisel" to describe the product, but the chisels are not necessarily similar (compare Blue Spruce and Ashley Iles, for example). http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=IL-100-30.XX&Category_Code=

Blue Spruce's DT chisels have thinner blades and bevels optimized for fine paring. They could undoubtedly do other fine paring jobs like letting in butt hinges and such. But they might not be so good for more robust jobs like shaving mortise walls - chopping out DT waste and the like.

Bench chisels are your go to tool for most any chisel work. They can handle most DT work without significant issues, lacking only the very fine bevels needed to get into fine corners between tails with tiny pins. I highly recommend the LNs.

Good bench or DT chisels do not have to be expensive. Excellent vintage chisels are abundant on eBay and elsewhere. Those inexpensive chisels can also quickly be shaped on the grinder to get into DT paring tight spots:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3048/2743320862_170c117270_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3273/2743321060_300f4b2f46.jpg

Russ Massery
07-31-2009, 3:24 PM
Sean's reply is right on. I have almost have a full set of Stanley 750's. That I bought here and there. I did buy 2 LN's for dovetails, 1/8" and a 3/16". I found the 3/16" is just about perfect for the size dovetails I do.

Wilbur Pan
07-31-2009, 9:42 PM
Of the chisels I have looked at in person, I like the Japanese style best so far. I have been wondering why not use dovetail chisels for general work.

I'm guessing you're referring to Japanese "dovetail" chisels. Many Japanese woodworkers use Japanese "dovetail" chisels as their bench chisel, and use them for general work, including both chopping and paring. But just to clarify what these chisels really are, here are some pictures of a regular Japanese bench chisel (left) and a Japanese "dovetail" chisel (right).

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_a3R4RhWn1Is/SnOZZniKD2I/AAAAAAAAAso/2vv1RLf3cG4/s800/IMG_1097.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_a3R4RhWn1Is/SnOZbXIhXkI/AAAAAAAAAsw/C6hqk4KHvWM/s800/IMG_1099.JPG

The Japanese dovetail chisels resemble regular dovetail chisels in that they have a somewhat triangular profile, but they do not have an acute side angle like the Blue Spruce dovetail chisels do. You can see that the side walls on the Japanese dovetail chisel have more or less the same angle as the Japanese bench chisel, and that the triangular shape is mainly on the top of the chisel.

Having said that, personally I have yet to meet the dovetail that I couldn't pare with either style of these chisels. For through dovetails, by skewing the chisel slightly, I can get into the corners pretty easily, and I only need a chisel about 1/16" thinner of the width of the dovetail to be able to get into there. For half-blind dovetails you would need a chisel with a real acute angle between the side wall and the back of the chisel to get into the very back corner of the recess, but since that part of the joint is going to be buried forever, you can afford to do a little bit of a hack job at the back corner a little. No one is going to see it, and it won't affect the strength of the joint at all.

Derek Cohen
08-01-2009, 1:39 AM
Hi Wilbur

In general I agree with your comment about dovetails not needing chisels with narrow shoulders - but it also depends on how narrow are the tails. There is no way I can skew a chisel inside a gap that is 1/8" or 3/16" wide. So I prefer chisels with narrow shoulders here. The Blue Spruce are excellent, and for chopping I have a couple of Matsumura dovetail chisels that I have ground to a sharp angle at the shoulder.

These are still doable (3/4" thick boards) ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Office/Office-bookcase1.jpg

But these are not (1/4" thick boards) ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/CompetitionboxWIP.jpg


Regards from Perth

Derek

Pam Niedermayer
08-01-2009, 3:33 AM
The Japanese "dovetail," I prefer the term "shinogi," chisels are called "dovetail" because their shape is like a dove's tail, not because they're ideal for making dovetails.

There are Japanese dovetailing chisels, which look like this. (http://japantool-iida.com/chisel_others/2008/05/special-dovetail-chisel-by-tas.html)


Pam

Jim Koepke
08-01-2009, 4:02 AM
The Japanese "dovetail," I prefer the term "shinogi," chisels are called "dovetail" because their shape is like a dove's tail, not because they're ideal for making dovetails.

There are Japanese dovetailing chisels, which look like this. (http://japantool-iida.com/chisel_others/2008/05/special-dovetail-chisel-by-tas.html)


Pam

Those do like they would do the job quite well. The price is a little out of my ballpark at present.

For me, buying a lot of old used chisels has been working well. There are always the cheap chisels that come in with others or at YEG (yard, estate, garage) sales. These can be ground to any shape one might fancy. If a particular shape seems to work best and an urge to treat oneself comes along, then go ahead and buy the fancy tool candy if that is what you want.

jim

David Keller NC
08-01-2009, 9:11 AM
Of the chisels I have looked at in person, I like the Japanese style best so far. I have been wondering why not use dovetail chisels for general work. Is it just that they are a bit more delicate? With the price of good chisels I won't be beating on them very hard, dovetail or not, that's what my old ones are for.

Anyone have a good way of laying out what the big differences (other then shape) are between dt and bench chisels?

Jim

Jim - "dovetail" and "bench" chisels in a way don't really have a distinction. Dave Jeske of Blue Spruce simply defines the difference as "dovetails are for paring, bench chisels are for striking with a mallet". Both styles of his chisel have beveled sides that allow clearance between the angled sidewall of the tail socket and the chisel. His chisels are constructed differently so that the "dovetail chisels" theoretically won't stand up to heavy pounding with a mallet, but his bench chisels will - both from the design of the chisel connection to the handle and the handle material itself (acrylic impregnated maple).

The distinction with most other manufacturers are considerably less distinct. Lie-Nielsen calls theirs "bevel edge socket chisels", and while they've thin, beveled sidewalls that will allow them clearance in a dovetail socket, the chisel itself is a socketed handle connection design that will definitely allow heavy pounding with a mallet.

Where the distinction means a lot more is the difference between dovetail or bench chisels, and firmer chisels. Firmer chisels are generally fairly long, the chisel blade is fairly thick, most brands were the socketed type, and the sidewalls are not beveled. These were typically used in timber framing applications in the 19th and early 20th century, where heavy pounding with a mallet was expected.

In the 18th century, and as far as we know, manufacturers didn't make bevel edge chisels. Cabinetmakers used chisels that were sort of like the firmer design, except the ones they'd use were typically designed for lighter work, with quite thin blades and tanged, bolstered blades.

For a modern user, it really doesn't matter that much - you can modify an old firmer to your uses by beveling the sidewalls, and you can certainly use a design like the Lie-Nielsens for heavy mallet work as well as fine dovetail paring.

That said, most of us that are heavily into the Neanderthal way of doing things have more than one set of chisels. One set typically is ground and honed at a narrow primary bevel angle - like 25 degrees or so, and are used for paring (no mallet hits). The fine bevel substantially increases the apparent sharpness of the tool when used in paring work, but the edge would chip and break under mallet blows. The second set of chisels are ground at a steeper bevel angle (usually 30 or 35 degrees) which provides a tougher edge that won't chip under mallet blows, but has a lower apparent sharpness.

jim hedgpeth
08-01-2009, 9:42 AM
The ones I was looking at are like what Wilbur posted (Thanks Wilbur). I haven't handled the "dovetail" variety in person though, and did not realize the edges are not thin. I read the description for Odate's dovetail chisels and assumed all had the knife edged sides due to the shape of the tops. I should know better than to use that word in any way.

Do any of the Japanese chisels other than the Odate set have thin edges?

It looks like I might just get some bench chisels and one or two old ones to modify.

Thanks
Jim

John Keeton
08-01-2009, 9:59 AM
Dave Jeske of Blue Spruce simply defines the difference as "dovetails are for paring, bench chisels are for striking with a mallet". Both styles of his chisel have beveled sides that allow clearance between the angled sidewall of the tail socket and the chisel. His chisels are constructed differently so that the "dovetail chisels" theoretically won't stand up to heavy pounding with a mallet, but his bench chisels will - both from the design of the chisel connection to the handle and the handle material itself (acrylic impregnated maple).I would add that Dave's dovetail chisels are shorter, thinner, and generally lighter weight and mass. However, in speaking with Dave, he stated that they will work fine for moderate chopping, and I have found that to be the case. However, because I think the lower angle edge on the paring/dovetail chisels is nice, I use Pfeil bench chisels for most chopping - with a little steeper edge.

Pam Niedermayer
08-01-2009, 10:46 AM
Those do like they would do the job quite well. The price is a little out of my ballpark at present.

For me, buying a lot of old used chisels has been working well. There are always the cheap chisels that come in with others or at YEG (yard, estate, garage) sales. These can be ground to any shape one might fancy. If a particular shape seems to work best and an urge to treat oneself comes along, then go ahead and buy the fancy tool candy if that is what you want.

jim

Yeah, I've got a couple of boxes full of old chisels. As for dovetail chisels. LN has some new carbon fishtails for a lot less that look a lot like the Japanese dovetail chisels. One of these years...

Pam

PS This is not an indictment of any other dovetail chisels, such as Blue Spruce.

Dave Jeske
08-01-2009, 11:31 AM
Dave Jeske of Blue Spruce simply defines the difference as "dovetails are for paring, bench chisels are for striking with a mallet".
David, My first chisels I introduced were the lighter weight, specially deigned chisels for refining joinery, primarily dovetail joints. I struggled a bit with what to call them as they were a cross between the lighter weight, tanged, 19th century straight sided chisel and a bevel edge chisel. They were designed more for paring than for heavy mallet use so I termed them "Dovetail Paring Chisels". I also have long blade versions of the same chisel. This has created some confusion during on-line discussions because the notion is that they cannot be hit with a mallet - which is not entirely true. I use mine with a mallet all the time and they work extremely well for lighter duty work. However, they are not made for heavy chopping so I hesitate to say they can be struck with a mallet. I introduced the bevel edge chisels for heavy duty use but still tried to keep a lighter, balanced feel to them. The side edges are nearly sharp so you can easily use them for chopping dovetails. I realize this is not a necessity for cleaning out dovetails but it is very convenient. The latest issue of FWW has a short review on the bench chisels. By the way, I am introducing sizes up to 1-1/2 inches wide.
Regards,
Dave Jeske

Jim Koepke
08-01-2009, 12:56 PM
Terminology can be a pain at times. Two folks saying different things yet meaning the same thing.

Some of my chisels do not get whacked by a mallet, they get hit by a mallet. Others do not get hit by a mallet, they are only tapped.

Then there is my recently acquired 1/2 inch mortice chisel that I am going to be whaling away on with a mallet.

jim

Dave Jeske
08-01-2009, 1:44 PM
Then there is my recently acquired 1/2 inch mortice chisel that I am going to be whaling away on with a mallet.

jim

Whale away, or is that wail away? :confused:
Have fun,
Dave

Jim Koepke
08-01-2009, 3:41 PM
Whale away, or is that wail away? :confused:
Have fun,
Dave

My only wailing will be if while whaling away with a mallet, the chisel is missed and one of my extremities takes the blow.:eek::(

Of course, I could be giving some wood a wide wale texture or be getting into ship building or basket making.:cool:

jim


whale 2 |(h)weɪl| |weɪl|
verb [ trans. ] informal
beat; hit : Dad came upstairs and whaled me | [ intrans. ] they whaled at the water with their paddles.


wail
noun
a prolonged high-pitched cry of pain, grief, or anger : Christopher let out a wail.
• a sound resembling this : the wail of an air-raid siren.


wale |wāl|
noun
1 a ridge on a textured woven fabric such as corduroy.
2 Nautical a plank running along the side of a wooden ship, thicker than the usual planking, and strengthening and protecting the hull.
3 a horizontal band around a woven basket.