How do you buy good tools and equipment?

[Tom Walz]

My expensive kitchen refrigerator from Sears went out yesterday after 16 years. Technician opened it up and said “I’m surprised your compressor lasted this long.” Seems it was a cheap GE design that didn’t work. In the meantime the 20 year old, much cheaper, off brand beer fridge is still going strong.

I know something about buying some stuff and I really do use and appreciate Internet reviews but I wondered if anyone else had any advice or rules of thumb on buying new or used equipment, tools etc. where you really don’t know much about them.

Thanks,
Tom

[george wilson]

That is a huge question. Maybe posting questions about every major piece of equipment you are considering would be better,if you have the time to do so.

Then,you can get a long list of conflicting views!!

[Ben Martin]

I quit buying new equipment and only buy older used Made in USA tools. This is how I ensure that what I am getting is of higher quality than what is currently available. But yes, that is a loaded question...

[Adam Cavaliere]

I have to agree with George. Researching every piece is probably the best option. Though I do have to say some people just stick with brand because they trust it. I know I went down that path with my woodworking tool purchases. Whether it was right or wrong has yet to be seen.

With everything else I have purchased, research has been key. The home entertainment center I designed was researched piece by piece until I found everything I was looking for and understood what I was getting. It takes time and there will definitely be conflicting views from the different sources of information you find. Trying to not get caught up in keeping up with the snobby reviewers is key too.

Hopefully that make sense and helps...

[george wilson]

Read the thread about old cast iron hotness in this section.

[Rod Sheridan]

I quit buying new equipment and only buy older used Made in USA tools. This is how I ensure that what I am getting is of higher quality than what is currently available. But yes, that is a loaded question...

I disagree with the statement that older American machinery is better than current equipment.

My two most recent purchases, A General 650 saw and a Hammer A3-31 jointer/planer are both superior to the older equipment they replaced.

In addition there are suppliers such as Felder, SCMI, Minimax etc that produce equipment that far outperforms the older North American machinery.

It's a case of you get what you pay for, and if you pay for modern industrial machinery you get the best available, with performance, precision and safety that simply wasn't available decades ago.

Regards, Rod.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

That is a loaded question. I really depends on WHAT you are buying. Fridge, buy new. Period. Newer fridges run cheaper, stay colder. Made in USA? Depends on what you buy. GM. Chrysler (I am a Mopar fan). Toyota? Toyota tops the list. Yeah, some Toys are made here. Very few tools are made is USA. Quality? Festool, Bosch is high on the list. NOT made here..... There may be a few tools made in US that are actually worth buying over an import.

I would not limit myself to US made stuff or old stuff. I refrained from posting on the old iron thread. Just my .02.

I actually get a lot of reccomendations from this board just from reading posts.

[Marty Paulus]

I am one of those who research something to death. While I am at it I am also looking for the best cost to benefit ratio. The internet has made looking for information on things much easier. An example of this is that I am looking for a GPS for my car. My 'day' job has me on the road a fair bit and the GPS would help. I have settled on a mid level unit and am just waiting on a sale. I could have gone with a top of the line model but the overall performance of the 'you are here' feature is not much different. The higher end model had features/applications that I don't want nor need.

I am also looking for a planer at this time. I am still doing research and will soon be asking for opinons in this forum :D

[Gary Herrmann]

Can't go wrong with Canadian General equipment of any kind, IMO.

[Kirk Poore]

I've bought almost all used equipment. Not all the machines were great, but they've mostly been usable, heavy duty machines. Used machines can be great deals, but you have to buy them in accordance with your restoration comfort level.

I'd go through these steps:

What kind of repairs can I do or want to learn how to do?
If you do lots of work on your car, you can do almost all the work needed by most machines. On the other hand, if you don't know the difference between the open and box end of a wrench, and don't want to learn, you're probably better off with a new machine.

What machines do I need?
Table saws, radial arm saws, jointers, drill presses, and band saws are fairly plentiful. Planers are a little harder to find. There are good and bad models of all of these things, as well as big, medium, and small versions, so you need to research them. I'd pick one or two things to search for and decide what you want--say, a 10" cabinet saw and a 17" full-height drill press. Find out the good brands--don't limit yourself to just one, because you may be waiting a loooong time.

How much can I afford?
Be aware of the local market prices by looking on Craigslist and Ebay, even if you don't buy from there. CL prices are usually negotiable, of course. This will help you quickly decide if the machine is worth going after. Be aware of your budget, and don't forget to add in the price of common stuff like bearings, belts, power cords, gasoline for your truck, etc.

Can I fix it?
After you find a machine, check for damage. Broken castings are the worst, followed by wallowed out shafts and missing major parts. Other stuff, like belts & bearings, are usually easy to find though may require a fair amount of work to replace. Motors are surprisingly easy to work on, but sometimes they're not worth it (usually with burned windings, bent shafts or cracked castings). Again, be aware of your comfort level.

Even if you start small, learning how to fix a used machine will give you the skills to try more complicated ones. Jointers are easy, planers are hard. And OWWM.org is out there to help if you need it.

Kirk

[Simon Dupay]

If the manufacture focuses on how it's made or designed; not on what bells & whistles it has in their literature that's a good indicator of quality.

[Don Morris]

Research, then re-search as said above. Won't guarantee but by the time I buy, I usually know what I'm getting. Don't be in a hurry. Usually have read a lot of threads on Sawmillcreek too. Country of origin isn't a guaranteer anymore. Toyota was the best example. They've got the best car quality control at this time...not Detroit.

[Chris Tsutsui]

When buying something you know nothing about, you should ask the service technicians what their view is.

For example, a Sears technician will probably tell you that their Kenmore Elite Fridges get the most service calls and have the most complaints, while the Kenmore regular fridges rarely ever have a complaint or fix.

At least that is what the tech told me.

[Richard M. Wolfe]

I try to talk to someone who has dealt with the whatever I'm interested in or has more than a casual exposure to the line of whatever it may be - woodworking equipment, kitchen appliances, etc. There are also a few salespeople I will listen to; they have been in retail a good while and know pushing a dud at a customer may mean more headaches with returns and lost sales in the future. It's tough to be objective but just because you had a great Brand *** in the past doesn't mean that the present Brand *** will be any good.

[Kevin Barnett]

I try to check Consumer's Report. I don't use it as a Bible, but for assistance. BTW, I disagree with many of their reviews on items I do own.

[Chip Lindley]

His view is *right on* about used machinery, and an individual's comfort/expertise level of maintainance and restoration! A new woodworker with no inclination or curiosity to learn about the guts of tools and what makes them tick, should probably stick to new tools in their price range with a warranty. Even very expensive industrial tools have some lemons!

Novice woodworkers often start off with readily available consumer-grade power tools (Sears, Ridgid, etc.) USING those entry-level tools and exploring their possibilities (and limitations) is key to learning about tools! A tool may run forever, but may never hold alignment or stay within tolerances. Many find *sorta-kinda-good enough* is not really GOOD ENOUGH at all! Upgrading to a higher quality level is inevitable.

I started woodworking in the 1970s in my 20s. Sears Best was supposed to be the BEST! Duhhh!! I suffered along with my *brand new* table saw for far too many years. The saw ran fine and cut true BUT for the zillion cranks it took to raise/lower/tilt the blade! And, the riduculous crappy rip fence! Biesemeyer would have cured that, but a T-Square fence cost more than the new Crapsman, and was not to be marketed for several more years into the '80s.

Sick to death of the Crapsman's deficiencies, I bought a derelict Rockwell Model 10 CS and restored it to pristine condition! The rack and pinion blade mechanism was awsome! The JetLock fence was very usable also. That saw was a keeper until about two years ago, when I found a real bargain on a PM66 and scarfed it up!

Now, as then, I cannot afford NEW professional grade machinery! Waiting for a bargain to become available has paid off for me! Only lately have I sprung to add some higher priced machines--still bargains at half the price of new! IF you can afford expensive NEW machines, more power to you! Some of us must rely on good old used affordable machinery!

The auto industry could not survive without millions of buyers with *new car fever!* If Detroit depended on me, they would have starved out long long ago! I buy something low mileage, at least one model year old. I let the original buyer pay the sticker price! That vehicle depreciates several $thousand$ as soon as they drive it off the lot!

Tool-wise, IF one knows what they are buying, buy a used bargain and enjoy restoring it! Our current recession is receding now! The *bargain pendulum* will surely swing the other way!

[Dino Makropoulos]

My expensive kitchen refrigerator from Sears went out yesterday after 16 years. Technician opened it up and said “I’m surprised your compressor lasted this long.” Seems it was a cheap GE design that didn’t work. In the meantime the 20 year old, much cheaper, off brand beer fridge is still going strong.

I know something about buying some stuff and I really do use and appreciate Internet reviews but I wondered if anyone else had any advice or rules of thumb on buying new or used equipment, tools etc. where you really don’t know much about them.

Thanks,
Tom


Tom,
Many internet reviews are a hoax.

[Chip Lindley]

A prospective buyer can glean these threads and find a general concensus of any given machines +'s and -'s. There is little bias here to cloud an issue! Add up the lovers and haters of any particular model and draw your own conclusions!

[Greg Hines, MD]

I think quality is something that is earned by a brand. It also almost always comes at a price, and I generally prefer to buy a quality item if possible. This goes to tools, appliances, clothes, shoes, etc. As a physician, I am constantly asked about by patients about their feet. I cannot tell you how many times I have told someone "Throw out those rubber shoes or flip-flops, and buy a decent pair of shoes".

Doc

[Marty Paulus]

Research, then re-search as said above. Won't guarantee but by the time I buy, I usually know what I'm getting. Don't be in a hurry. Usually have read a lot of threads on Sawmillcreek too. Country of origin isn't a guaranteer anymore. Toyota was the best example. They've got the best car quality control at this time...not Detroit.


I would disagree about the Toyota quality but that is another thread.

[Mike Cutler]

Tom

If were talking woodworking tools, I would just ask here on the board. You'll get a lot of different replies from different perspectives and points of use, but in the end you'll get a fairly good feeling for for what may be right for you. You'll get some PM's if it's a real waste of $$$.

16 years out of your 'fridge compressor wasn't really that bad. The beer cooler mat be a poor comparison though,as it was only intended to perform one simple function,and once the keg was installed, and the cooler area brought to temp, the compressor cycles were probably very low. Definitely not the case with a fridge though. "Fridge doors open and close a lot over the years.

What do I personally look for; Less electronics! The more goo-gaws and gadgets an appliance, or machine has. The more things a single appliance does ,the more that can be broken,
I avoid microprocessor based controllers like the plague, and I have almost thirty years of experience on microprocessor based process control systems.Those micro-processor based controllers are obsolete and sometimes unsupported by the end of a model run. They are expensive and have long lead times to get.( Look at some of the LG discussions on their 'fridges here online)

I buy appliances at local brick and mortar appliance stores,and not Home Depot, or online. When I need parts or service under warranty nothing beats a reputable local company.( I just had an obsolete, floor model closeout Sub-Zero refurb'd to new in my kitchen under warranty in < 1 day.)


I look at the gauge of steel used throughout,and try to avoid any appliance that uses plastic as any type of a structural, or bearing component.

I look for screws instead of pop rivets to disassemble and repair the machine myself.

Mostly though I look at the support network for parts. I can generally repair just about any appliance, or machine myself as long as I can get the part(s) and having a phone number that actually has a human attached on the other end is a major plus.

[johnny means]

My expensive kitchen refrigerator from Sears went out yesterday after 16 years. Technician opened it up and said “I’m surprised your compressor lasted this long.” Seems it was a cheap GE design that didn’t work. In the meantime the 20 year old, much cheaper, off brand beer fridge is still going strong.

I know something about buying some stuff and I really do use and appreciate Internet reviews but I wondered if anyone else had any advice or rules of thumb on buying new or used equipment, tools etc. where you really don’t know much about them.

Thanks,
Tom

How could a machine that performed continuously day in and day out for 16 years be a cheap design that didn't work? I would be shocked to get 10 years out of any modern appliance.

[Ben Martin]

I disagree with the statement that older American machinery is better than current equipment.

My two most recent purchases, A General 650 saw and a Hammer A3-31 jointer/planer are both superior to the older equipment they replaced.

In addition there are suppliers such as Felder, SCMI, Minimax etc that produce equipment that far outperforms the older North American machinery.

It's a case of you get what you pay for, and if you pay for modern industrial machinery you get the best available, with performance, precision and safety that simply wasn't available decades ago.

Regards, Rod.

Comparing newer-European equipment to older american stuff is sort of like comparing a P-52 Mustang to a F-22 Raptor, both designed to do the same job but with completely different state of the art available...

Although I would put my 1940's Unisaur against a General 650, new Unisaw or Powermatic offerings any day, they don't offer much, if anything different than my 60 year old table saw does.

I was more relating the quality of older used tools to the likes of Jet and Grizzly, they are in completely different ballparks.

[Jeff Duncan]

How do I buy equipment? Easy, I go to local auctions, check C-list, and e-bay and watch out for any other places I can snag a deal. I like old heavy industrial, (no not the kind of industrial now used on labels by various manufacturers to describe cheap junk, but the real deal), 3 phase machine that have proven their worth.
As the others have said you need to do your homework and know what your buying. I know if I want to buy a shaper I have several names I'd trust. I also know the model numbers off the top of my head as well as the average auction prices. An educated consumer has the advantage. If I need something I haven't researched previously, I try to post to a couple forums, and do a quick search to learn as much as I can before I buy. I never buy machinery spontaneously unless it's such a good deal I can't pass it up, doesn't happen often, but it does happen:D
good luck,
JeffD

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I do my research and then end up buying something very expensive.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Although I would put my 1940's Unisaur against a General 650, new Unisaw or Powermatic offerings any day, they don't offer much, if anything different than my 60 year old table saw does.

I was more relating the quality of older used tools to the likes of Jet and Grizzly, they are in completely different ballparks.


I would have to disagree with nothing new. They do. Safety. Riving knife alone is a tremendous safety advantage. New customers demand safety. You can stay in the "I don't like any safety features and I been doing this for 60 years, and I remove any safety features" if you like. Many of us do demand safety. And, a new Beis fence is tons better than anything made in the 40's.

[Ben West]

I have some of both. I like both. A couple of thoughts:

Comparing old industrial woodworking machines with modern industrial machines is like comparing apples to oranges, price-wise. Sure, modern industrial machinery is fantastic, and it's also expensive. Old American industrial-built machines can often be had for about the same price as modern hobbyist-level Asian machines. So, price wise, this is a much better comparison. And, in this comparison, there is usually no contest -- Old Iron wins hands down.

Second, if one compares modern sports cars with muscle cars of the 60s, there is no comparison in performance. Modern cars handle better, are more comfortable, and more reliable. But, one might opine, the older cars make up for this difference with soul!