Katie Jig?

[Rick Potter]

Starting my new kitchen soon, and have been watching the Sommerfield video on cabinets. He shows using the Katie jig for drawers, and it looks a lot simpler than using most normal jigs. Upside down on the router table looks good.

Any thoughts? Other suggestions? I don't need a fancy large jig, as I cannot picture dovetailing more than about 8".

Thanks,

Rick Potter

[Vince Shriver]

Check out the following. Also be aware that the Keller Jig can be used on a router table as well (no 1/2 blind dts with it however).

www.woodshopdemos.com/dtshoot-1.htm (http://www.woodshopdemos.com/dtshoot-1.htm)

John gives a great description of the most common jigs along with pictures. He's a member here and always most helpful.

[Phil Thien]

I've also been tempted by the Katie jigs and would love to hear some input. The ability to change spacing and do the work on the router table seems like the best of both worlds to me.

[charlie kapper]

I purchased the Katie Jig a few months ago. I planned on building my drawers with 1/2" Baltic Birch. The Katie Jig is not for plywood. I tried backing up the cuts with no success. I eventually called Sommerfeld for suggestions and he suggested using solid wood .
I have since purchased soft maple but have not had the opportunity to cut dovetails yet.
If you have been looking at Sommerfeld products has anyone used the Sommerfeld cabinet making router bit system? I would be interested in any feedback.

[Rick Potter]

Thanks guys,

I do plan to use soft maple for the drawers, bought it about 10 years ago.

Charlie, my buddy Sam is using that system for his cabinets. He has only done one so far, but he likes it. He did tell me that the grommet for switching bits does not work for him (he is using a shaper).

Perhaps he will tell us about it??

Rick Potter

[Sam Layton]

Hi Charlie,

Like Rick said, I am using the Summerfeld cabinet making system. So far I have made one bathroom vanity. I like the system and I am going to use it to build my kitchen cabinets. It makes assembly easy and makes the cabinets strong.

I have a 3 hp PC router in my router table. The shaft on the router bits are not long enough to use the grommet for changing bits. I set up one bit in my router table and the other bit in my shaper. This works good for me. If you don't have each bit set up, there is a lot of bit changing and set up to do. Also, you need a tall fence on your router table when doing your panels.

When drilling the pocket holes I had to do a few samples to get the location of the hole correct and the correct screw length. The way summerfeld explains it in the video did not work for me. After I got things set up it worked good.

I like the system and I will use it for the kitchen. The key to this system is to have each bit set up ready to go.

I hope this helps, Sam

[Steve Leverich]

Rick, Charlie - I HAD a Katie jig until a couple low-life buddies of my retarded next door neighbor (40, still living at home and partying til he spent 6 months in jail) decided that they needed about $6,000 worth of my tools last july - (fortunately, they didn't think the large freezer in the shop was worth looking into - that's where I keep all my router bits, dial indicators, and a few thou in other "goodies" so they're dust free and warm with a 40 watt bulb at the bottom)

Anyway, I also bought the Sommerfeld cabinet set (t&g bits plus ) - haven't built anything yet, but played with some scrap plywood and Beech face frame material, and I LIKE it a lot. Cabinets built this way should be TANK proof !!?!

I too had problems with the grommet deal - kinda "close, but no cigar"... So it was a good thing in this case that I let my extravagant side take over. I have three router tables now, two with Jessem tops/lifts/fences, and one Harbor Freight cast iron table set on a low rolling cabinet and modified to take another Jessem fence - that one has a Freud 3-1/4 horse router. The other two tables both have DeWalt 618's in Jessem lifts.

Sooo, when I finally get to the task, the big router will get the panel raising bit and the two small ones will get either tongue and groove bits or stile and rail bits, depending on the operation.

This will allow me to set depth for EACH bit separately, lock 'em down, and leave 'em til that entire phase is finished. (I also have a third 618 3-base kit, a Freud trim router, and an old B&D 1-horse router so things like roundover bits, etc, can be used without disturbing the main setups.

I have the Somerfeld videos (they're what convinced me to go this way) they're also what convinced me that I didn't wanna spend half the day switching bits, nor did I want to rely on a rubber grommet NOT compressing just differently enough to put a variation in finished joints.

For those who've not seen the system being discussed, Somerfeld points out that you should NOT bottom out a bit in a normal router chuck because when you tighten the collet you'll lock the bit and it's hard to remove - so his system uses a 1/2" OD rubber grommet (included) that you place in the collet and push to the bottom, then the bit rests on THAT as you tighten the chuck.

Somerfeld's bits (any that come as a set) are made with the shafts cut to length so that (in theory) you can swap bits once you're set up for height on one, and the other bit will (in theory) end up at the exact height needed to match the previous cut.

Another area of mis-information (in fairness, it's probably just the different jig) is Somerfeld's explanation of using different length pocket screws and how to get the screw to MISS the T&G joint for better screw holding - this is already getting too long to elaborate, but if you're NOT using the pocket hole kit Mark sells, you will have to find your OWN combination of screw length and jig thickness setting. I have the Kreg kit, and I'm thinking that the angles are different between that and the CMT kit Mark sells. I say this because his setting suggestion from the videos did NOT work for me. I played with quite a bit of scrap before I came up with settings that worked.

All in all, the Somerfeld stuff is well-made - just don't assume all Mark's settings will work for YOU and you'll make some incredibly strong cabinets... Steve

(Sam, you're less of a blabbermouth than me so your post happened while I was writing this - sounds like our results agree though... Steve)

[Sam Layton]

Hi Steve,

Blab on... I agree 100% in your findings. I like the system, and I am going to use it for my kitchen. However, like you found out you have to find the settings that work for you. It took a lot of combinations to get the right screw length and the correct jig setting. I to have the Kreg jig. If you don't have a router table for each bit, I would not want to use the system. Too many bit changes.

Sam

[Rick Potter]

So, Steve......I am assuming you have the Kreg jig. Like Sam, so do I. Do you remember what setting worked for the T&G setup, so it would miss splitting the tongue??

Rick Potter

[Steve Leverich]

Rick, pretty sure I saved the piece of paper I wrote my findings on, I'll check later today - hopefully it's in the case with the Kreg stuff... Steve

[Rick Potter]

Thanks Steve,

Appreciate it if you can find it. Something about reinventing the wheel.

Also: You mentioned the Katie jig that got stolen, but you didn't mention if you liked it. A mini review perhaps?

Rick Potter

[Steve Leverich]

Rick, sorry but it's starting to look like the piece of paper a THINKING man would have kept with the Kreg info is among the missing - looks like re-invention may be necessary for me too. This time I think I can shorten the process, but not sure when I'll get time.

Katie jig - no basis of comparison since I've not used any other jig, other than to echo Charlie's comment about it NOT being for plywood. In all fairness, I hadn't tried scoring (and I wasn't using BB ply, just 3/4 shop (not Borg)

I did like the setup, liked using it on a table instead of trying to keep a freehand router from tipping. Mine came with irritating wing nuts for some of the adjustments (like the "toaster" hold-downs) which I'd replaced with Rockler threaded knobs.

You definitely want the handle option (at least it was an option when I bought mine) - it helps you maintain flat contact between the table and the jig. I hadn't ordered that option, but I made a workable setup using a couple of pipe floor flanges and nipples for handles - don't recall exactly how I attached them, but I remember gloating a bit over a momentary flash of brilliance :D

Not sure yet if I'll replace the Katie, as I have a CMT jig the slimeballs overlooked and haven't had time to play with it yet.

Back to the Kreg settings for Sommerfeld T&G - I remember having to use 1/4" longer than Kreg recommended for screws (I only played with 3/4" stock), beyond that I cut some scrap, slid the two pieces together (nearly a press fit) then used a carpenter's bevel to duplicate the angle the step drill comes thru the kreg - I then transferred that angle to the end of my two test pieces and drew a line where I wanted the screw to end up.

Next, I held the longer screw up against my desired position (NOT thru the tongue) and marked where the washer head stopped when the tip of the screw was shy of coming out the back of the grooved board by 1/8".

Next, I had to build a simple jig to replace the older Kreg support bars (no longer included) so I had a level support on both sides of the jig without tipping the material, dropped the step drill into the guide hole and ran the test pieces up against it, raised the drill til the step coincided with my mark for the screw head, and set the stop collar.

That was the start as I remember it, beyond that it's kind of a blur. Hopefully this will give you a head start on method at least.

Gotta go for now, working night shifts this week... Steve

[Steve Leverich]

OK, it's official – I'm an IDIOT... :confused:


Woke up this afternoon (after 12-hour night shift) and decided to re-create the tests I'd done to find Kreg jig settings for the Sommerfeld T&G cabinet set (in the video, Marc uses a CMT pocket hole jig, and he gives the settings that work for his joint system and that jig – I (and others) found that those do NOT work with a Kreg jig, so I had set up 2 of my router tables a few months ago and ran some scrap ply thru 'em to find out what WOULD work (no pun intended ) and had made notes/drawings of the proceedings.


When Rick asked me to post 'em, I went looking – naturally, the dog had eaten my homework (actually, that's a plausible thing with me – 2 Dobies and a Kelpie on the place)


I finally gave up looking and decided to re-create the stuff, actually found the scrap pieces I'd used ??!? and guess what? (See the first line in this post) – I had set up the groove cutting table with the groove on the WRONG SIDE (see drawings) sooo, not only was the edge of the grooved piece very WEAK, but my original settings wouldn't work. Duh...


Here are the NEW/CORRECT settings (at least for my use – YMMV) (only for 3/4” material)


SCRIBE settings (for a 3/8” relieved cabinet back)




Screw still needs to be 1/4” longer, or 1-1/2”
Kreg jig has marks for material thickness, these will NOT work for T&G.
For 3/4” material, use thickness mark for 1-3/8” thick material.
Using 1-1/2” screws, set the stop collar on the step drill for 3/4” (using the markings on the jig body, placing the STEP at the 3/4” mark and the collar against the jig body and tightened.)
These settings SHOULD keep the point of the screw approximately 3/32” from breaking through the non-drilled half of the joint.



OK, that was the EASY part....


FLUSH settings (back of cabinet FLUSH with sides)


Ya can't get there from here... Well, OK, you can – but it's not as simple, because the Kreg jig only goes to 1-1/2” material thickness and you need MORE – here's how I did it.


In order to get the screw to NOT go through the tongue of the joint (very weak that way) the pocket hole needs to be shifted over a bit – this is accomplished with these jigs by changing the “material thickness” setting, which raises the drill guide portion of the jig and thereby causes the step drill to enter the wood higher up and this shifts the pocket hole further from the entry side of the wood. See the accompanying drawings.


When I tried to get this to happen once I left “IDIOT mode”, I ran out of adjustment on the “thickness” setting before I got the screw to MISS the joint's tongue – not good.


The fix I found – first, I was hoping there would be solid material below the last adjustment hole on the drill guide – NOT. Just a big round hole in the web of the casting (drill guide) that slides up and down to change thickness setting.


I found that the drill guide needed to be approximately 3/8” further up in it's channel than the last “real” adjustment hole – if you raise the drill guide about 1/2” above this last mark, then run the brass holding screw in, it will sit in the large hole just below all the adjusment holes (See my notated pic) – then, if you push the drill guide back down, it should (mine did) stop at just the right height (3/8” gap between the 1-1/2” mark and the side of the channel that's part of the main jig body)


OK, so how to KEEP it there? Thought about a hole or two and screws, didn't like the idea of doing that to the jig (maybe screw threads pull out, whatever)


Finally took a small (6”) padded-jaw bar clamp and clamped the outer channel against the movable drill guide (left the brass screw against the edge of the big hole) and this made things VERY solid. If the clamp is placed with the bar ABOVE the brass screw, (see crappy bar clamp I added to pic) it doesn't interfere with the dust hood OR the locking handle.


Again, I hope everybody knows to try this with their OWN stuff and SCRAP – I only mention this in case a newbie reads this and hasn't already found out what YMMV means.


Ain't it weird how screwing up is usually a better teacher than doin' it right the first time??!?


Hope this was useful... Steve

[Rick Potter]

Steve,

Fantastic post, may I suggest you make an article out of it, so it will be easy to find. I suspect many creekers will be helped by it.

Thank you very much for the effort, and the lucid explanation.

Rick Potter

[Steve Leverich]

Rick, thanks - glad it was helpful. Not sure what you mean by "make an article" of it? But I do suspect it'll be hard to find since it's in a thread called Katie jig... Steve