Which handtool (specifically plane/s) for particular jobs ?

[Eben Fourie]

Can someone please help me understand the hand tools required for the following jobs? :confused:

I am specifically interested in the planes used for various tasks. From a cost-saving point of view, if I can realistically use the same tool for multiple job, so much the better. I am familiar with the Veritas range, so if possible, it would help to stick to a single manufacturer to avoid confusion i.t.o. different naming conventions. Hope I got the descriptions for Rabbet / Dado / Groove & Fillister next to the correct term :o


Flattening a board

Scrub or Fore
followed by Jack
followed by Jointer
followed by Smoother
Mortise

Mortising Chisel
? any planes
Tennon


Tennon Saw
Shoulder Plane
???
Rabbet (L shaped groove across the grain, at end of board)

??? Skew Rabbet Plane
Dado (groove across the grain)

??? Router Plane
Fillister (L shaped groove with the grain, along the edge of the board ?)

??? Skew Rabbet Pane
Groove (along the grain)

??? Router Plane
Sliding Dovetail (Tail)

???
Sliding Dovetail (Socket)

???
Any other common joints that you would use?

Many thanks, Eben

[Robert Rozaieski]

Here's what I use. YMMV.





Flattening a board

Fore
followed by Jointer
followed by Smoother
Mortise

Mortising Chisel
Marking gauge
Square
Marking knife
Mallet
Tennon


Tennon Saw
Square
Marking knife
Mortise gauge (really a tennon gauge; you don't need it for mortising)
Chisel
Rabbet (L shaped groove across the grain, at end of board)

Moving Fillester (to sink the rabbet)
Skew Rabbet Plane (to clean the rabbet)
Dado (groove across the grain)

Dado Plane
Also a Rabbet (L shaped groove with the grain, along the edge of the board ?)

Moving Fillester (to sink the rabbet)
Skew or square Rabbet Plane (to clean the rabbet)
Groove (along the grain)

Plow Plane
Sliding Dovetail (Tail)

sliding bevel
square
marking knife
Saw
chisel
Sliding Dovetail (Socket)

Dado plane
square
marking knife
Chisel
Any other common joints that you would use?


Standard through & half blind dovetails

Marking gauge
sliding bevel
marking knife
Saw
chisel

Many thanks, Eben

[Eben Fourie]

Bob, thank you very much for the comprehensive reply :)

Will do a bit of internet searching on all the planes you mention, will probably come back with more questions in a day or two.

[Tom Godley]

Yes Bob - Thanks!


Sometimes it get a little mixed up in my mind :)


I am printing this out!

[Eben Fourie]

Bob, I see on the LV site they call their Skew Rabbet plane a Moving Fillister as well :confused:

Can you perhaps explain a bit more about the differences between the two names, and also if the LV Skew Rabbet can be used to do both tasks (sink the rabbet and then clean it) ?

What would you be able to do with a Router plane if you own a Plow Plane already ?

So assuming I have the following:

LA Block
BU Smoother
BU Jointer
Medium Shoulder

To flesh out the minimum planes required for hand joinery, would I be ok with:

Scrub
Small Plow
Skew Rabbet

[Cliff Polubinsky]

Eben,

I took a handplane course with Thomas Lie-Nielsen and Chris Schwarz and they maintained that the only thing you would normaly use a scrub for is to reduce the width of a board. For flattenning they both said to start with the Jack.

Cliff

[Sean Hughto]

I really don't understand this resistance to the idea that the scrub is useful in "scrubbing" the face of the board flat and nearer to thickness. If you get your wood rough sawn, you very often need to take down significant cups or twists. The scrub hogs this stuff off very efficiently to get you to the point where a fore or jointer would take over. many folks like to set up cambered jacks, and they work, but they are not as hungry as a scrub and therefore not as fast and efficient. I mean, you could 4 square a board with a smoothing plane set to take one thousandths at a time, but why would you?

I've got to wonder if Tom and Chris have ever really tried face planing with a scrub. It's not hard, and it is certainly effective. I certainly respect both guys, but my own hands on experiences - over and over for years and years - tell me that their pronouncements on this don't make much sense.

[Joe Close]

I really don't understand this resistance to the idea that the scrub is useful in "scrubbing" the face of the board flat and nearer to thickness. If you get your wood rough sawn, you very often need to take down significant cups or twists. The scrub hogs this stuff off very efficiently to get you to the point where a fore or jointer would take over. many folks like to set up cambered jacks, and they work, but they are not as hungry as a scrub and therefore not as fast and efficient. I mean, you could 4 square a board with a smoothing plane set to take one thousandths at a time, but why would you?

I've got to wonder if Tom and Chris have ever really tried face planing with a scrub. It's not hard, and it is certainly effective. I certainly respect both guys, but my own hands on experiences - over and over for years and years - tell me that their pronouncements on this don't make much sense.

My "understanding," of their reasoning is that the scrub plane is rather short in length, and as a result, attempting to use this plane to flatten, can result in the plane to follow the curve in the board, rather than taking off high spots. At least I think I seem to remember Chris saying this... But, I could be all washed up! :o

[Sean Hughto]

Um, that's uh ... rather silly. The shorter length is a feature, not a bug. The idea of a scrub is not to use the plane's sole as a reference face for flattening the board, it is to use this really aggressive blade to take down unambigously high spots - or to aggressively (running it in alternate diagonals) take off thickness like a lunch box planer.

Turning it around, it would be like criticizing their supposed "typical use" of hogging to width as unlikely since the scrub's sole is not long like a jointer's so it's not going to reference the side and make it truely straight. That would be true, but ridiculous to assert since you are not using the scrub to make the edge straight to anything like the jointer's precision.

In both instances, teh scrub is the hog - the first step only; other planes will be brought to bear to make refinements as per their special strengths.

[Joe Close]

I told you I was washed up...

[David Keller NC]

Um, that's uh ... rather silly. The shorter length is a feature, not a bug. The idea of a scrub is not to use the plane's sole as a reference face for flattening the board, it is to use this really aggressive blade to take down unambigously high spots - or to aggressively (running it in alternate diagonals) take off thickness like a lunch box planer.

Turning it around, it would be like criticizing their supposed "typical use" of hogging to width as unlikely since the scrub's sole is not long like a jointer's so it's not going to reference the side and make it truely straight. That would be true, but ridiculous to assert since you are not using the scrub to make the edge straight to anything like the jointer's precision.

In both instances, teh scrub is the hog - the first step only; other planes will be brought to bear to make refinements as per their special strengths.

Sean - Some of camber a fore plane's iron at an 8 inch radius or less. Historically, that's what was used since it will "automatically" flatten the width and length of a board. There is no mention of a scrub plane in the old literature that I'm aware of until Stnaley brought it out as a metal plane for carpenters in the 19th century. Stanley noted that it was intended as a way to rapidly remove width from a board where the amount that needed to be removed was small enough that rip-sawing it would take more time than planing it down.

Stanley made at least one other plane that had this feature designed in - the Miller's patent plow was modified to accept a slitter blade intended to allow a carpenter to slit both sides of a softwood board, and break it along the slit line rather than rip-saw it.

But just because that's what Stanley intended the plane for doesn't mean one can't use it for other purposes. I do occasionally use my L-N scrub to take an obviously high point off of a board, though that's unusual. Most of the time, I just use the fore, or the jack if the board's small.

[Sean Hughto]

I've got nothing against fore planes or history. Alls I'm sayin is that the scrub works very well for faces where gross removal is required. While a fore can certainly be brought to bear, it not identical to the scrub, of course. The scrub's short sole keeps it from being restrained by other parts of the surface being worked which may be useful in some situations and it's narrow blade can take a deeper cut with the same effort. As with so many things in woodworking, I think a lot just depends upon your work habits and what you've become used to. For large slabs and rough sawn stock, I find the scrub indispensible, but I'm guessing that ig everything I worked with was S2S or could fit on my jointer and thickness planer, I might not have much occassion to use it.

[Jim Koepke]

Eben,

First off welcome to the creek.

As you can see, there are many opinions on the ways to get to an end.

The answer really depends on your situation. My situation does not present me with much really rough wood that needs a scrub plane.

For my uses, flattening a board is usually a job for one of the larger planes from a #5 through a #8, followed by a smoother.

This is all determined by the pieces being worked. A #8 is a bit hard to deal with on a piece that measures 3/8x4x12.

For mortising, a regular chisel can be used. If you plan on doing a lot of mortises, then a mortise chisel is a good investment. Some like to use a router plane to clean the bottom of a mortise.

For making a tenon you have listed all but a chisel or two for paring. On chisels, mine consist of second hand items bought at places from yard sales to eBay. My opinion is it is better to have too many than too few.
Paring chisels are very useful for trimming a little off of dovetails and tenon cheeks. For more substantial work, a set of square sided chisels is nice.
It is not often that a mallet is taken to my lighter bevel edged paring chisels.
It is not often that a mallet is not used to whack my heavier chisels.

For rabbets, fillister (which some also call a rabbet) and grooves along the grain, I use a Stanley #45. There are many similar planes that will do the job as well if not better.

For a dado, I have used many different methods. My favorite of late is to use a chisel. A router plane does come in handy to clean the bottom of the dado. Most of my dados are stopped, meaning they do not go all the way to the edge of the piece they are in. A slot just slightly wider than the chisel being used to cut it will help to prevent chip out at the edge. A chisel can be run bevel down in a knife marked dado and take a shaving just like it were a plane. For a full to the edge dado, some will saw the edges and then take out the waste with a plow plane or a dado plane using a batten tacked or clamped to the work piece as a guide.

For dados and rabbets, I do like having a set of side rabbet planes. They come in handy, but there are other ways to solve the problem if one does not want to invest in another specialty tool.

As far as sliding dovetail go, I have not had much luck with them, so my advice would not be of any help. There are some planes made specifically for the purpose.

Remember, your millage will surely vary.

jim

[Phillip Pattee]

Eben,

This is a good question and the totality of the answers is going to rate this thread’s inclusion in the Neanderthal Wisdom sticky. Specialty tools are not essential, but they find their way into shops because they make certain tasks easier and faster. Those tasks for which the specialty tool is designed that are most frequently used by the woodworker will determine which of those tools are most useful—and which are a better investment for the work usually done. You can create the joints you have listed with out special tools. I’ve seen dovetails cut in three minutes with a frame saw. I’ve seen a tennon shaped with a router plane. You can remove waste in dovetails by sawing it out, or chopping it out with a chisel. Your imagination and creativity will always pay off. I will not attempt to rehash what others have said, but I will try to fill in a few things that nobody has yet mentioned.

Flattening and otherwise dimensioning stock is an important first step before you can make any of the other joints. For making sure that you have removed twist and really have the cups out of your board, I find winding sticks to be indispensible. You also require a reliable square.

For a mortise, you need something to check the depth. This can be a simple ruler, or tape applied to your chisel so that you know how far down you have chopped. Paring chisels can help smooth out the sides after the chopping is complete.

A Dado can also be cut using a straight edge and a marking knife for layout. Follow this with a back saw cutting to your layout lines. Use a chisel to remove most of the waste. Clean up the groove with a router plane.

If you have a plow plane, you can use this to cut a groove at the edge of a fillester and then remove the waste with just about any other bench plane, such as a jack plane. You can also use a saw to cut a groove, but the kerf is often not wide enough to accommodate the space between the edge of the blade and the side of the plane. The remedy is to cut another groove, clean out some waste with a chisel and then use a bench plane to create the profile you want. Obviously this is time consuming, so a special purpose plane can be much more efficient. There are many ways to create these joints though.

[Robert Rozaieski]

I do all of my stock prep (and everything else for that matter) by hand and have for awhile now. I had a scrub long ago because I thought I needed one. I've used both a scrub and a heavily cambered fore plane as the first plane. I sold the scrub. The fore plane works much better for me the way I work. It takes off serious amounts of wood but unlike the scrub, it's longer length begins the flattening process by only focusing on the high spost. A scrub is too short to do this so you have to constantly check for high spots manually. With a 16-18" fore plane, you don't. With my for plane and try plane, I can take one face of a rough sawn board, even a twisted and/or cupped board, from rough sawn to flat and ready to scribe the second face in 8-10 minutes. When I used the scrub it took me significantly longer. I'm with Chris, Tom & David. I think the scrub is better suited for edges than faces based on my experience doing it both ways.

[Sean Hughto]

So what do you use as a fore plane? A 6? A woody? New? Old? Maybe I'll give one a try.

[Robert Rozaieski]

So what do you use as a fore plane? A 6? A woody? New? Old? Maybe I'll give one a try.

Sean,

I have used a #5, #6 and currently use an old woodie.
124062

This one is about 17" long, French I think, and made of beech. The #5 I used to use was a good weight but I felt it was a little short and as a result required more frequent checking of the board face, especially on wide boards and glued up panels (I only plane one face flat before a panel glue up, then I plane the rough sawn side of the panel after glueup to avoid doing the work twice). The #6 is a great length for a fore plane as the longer sole helps the plane to ride the high spots and begin the flattening process almost automatically, but it was way too blasted heavy for a fore plane. Taking thick shavings, even cross grain, with a #6 for very long will give you quite a workout. About 2 years ago, I got the woodie pictured above and ever since, I sold off my other metal planes and replaced them with wooden ones.

Now I'm not recommending that anyone get rid of their metal planes. I know woodies are not for everyone. However, if you have an interest in wooden planes, a fore plane is a great way to try one out. They're cheap, don't need a lot of fussing other than getting the iron sharp and the mouth can and should be wide open, which is typically how wooden planes are found in the wild anyway. The weight to length ratio of a wooden fore plane makes them much better than a metal plane for rough work in my opinion. The woodie is light enough that I can really hog off wood in a hurry but I don't tire out as quickly as I would using the #5 or #6. Also, the iron on an old woodie is usually very thick, helping to prevent chatter, and having a 2" wide iron instead of the really narrow iron a scrub plane has means that the scallops left behind from the rough planing are shallower and wider, making follow up planing with the try/jointer plane go much faster.

If you are happy with your scrub and can get good results with it in an amount of time that is acceptable to you then by all means keep using it. I can't tell you what works best for you ;). Your method of work might be much different than mine. In my case, I just got frustrated with the scrub as it was taking me a loooong time to get boards flat with it and I felt I should be able to do it much faster than I was able to with the scrub. Watching the guys in Williamsburg work and reading some of the historical evidence of how fast they were able to work when hand tools were all they used convinced me that I should be able to do it faster too. Switching from a scrub to the fore plane is what made the difference FOR ME. YMMV. :D

[Sean Hughto]

Thanks, Bob. Great info. I hope to be at an antiques event where there are often many tool seller booths later this month. I'll keep my eye out for a woodie that might fit the bill.

[David Keller NC]

So what do you use as a fore plane? A 6? A woody? New? Old? Maybe I'll give one a try.

Sean - I have 2 - an 18" Stanley type 6, and a 22" long Ohio Tools. The Stanley has a replaced Hock blade sharpened on an 8" radius camber, the Ohio Tools has the original blade sharpened on a 12" radius camber.

No particular reason for the difference in camber - I just wanted to experiment. Both will hog off some enormously thick "shavings" - I hesitate to call them that, because they're really chips.

One thing I'll note for newbs wanting to try out a fore plane - the Ohio Tools woodie is much less tiring to use than the Stanley. Not only is it very much lighter in weight, but there's a substantial difference in friction between the wood sole and the work and the Stanley's metal sole and the wood. That said, sometimes I'm working a plank that's not so wide, and the Stanley's shorter sole is a convenience.

[Sean Hughto]

Dave is your Ohio a transitional - like a 29 if I'm recalling the nomenclature correctly - or a straight-up wedged woodie?

[Brian Ward]

I'll second the use of woodies for hogging. You really expend a lot less energy, and you never need to wax the bottom of the plane. It'll give you more patience (and get-go) for the later stages of whatever it is that you're doing. I still use metal planes after hogging, but the nice part is that I don't need to make so many passes with them.

[David Keller NC]

Dave is your Ohio a transitional - like a 29 if I'm recalling the nomenclature correctly - or a straight-up wedged woodie?

No - it's an all-beech traditional bench plane. As Bob mentions, one nice thing about these is that you can usually get them for a song at a flea market because they're heavily worn and the mouth is wide. The only thing to be careful about is a "barn find" where the iron's been so rusty that the pits are too deep to get out. I think I paid $15 for this one, with a near full Ohio Tools marked iron, an undamaged tote, and an undamaged wedge.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Condemn me as a heretic and take me out for a good tarring and feathering but:
I just do whatever works.

I suppose the order of operation makes sense - sort of - maybe - in a general- round about way - on Mondays when it's raining but, if I had to pay attention to things like that it'd take all the fun out of it.