#4 or #4 1/2

[Russ Massery]

A good #4 is the only plane I don't have in my arsenal. Any thoughts on which would be a better smoother. I have 2 #3's a smooth and corrugated bottom. Is the only difference between the two is the length ? The 4 1/2 being longer.

[scott spencer]

Russ - A 4-1/2 is wider...IIRC it's the same width as a 5-1/2, 6, & 7. I really like my 4-1/2....have 2 now.

L-R: 04-1/2. 04, 04, 4, 4 (MF #9), 3, 3, 3.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/Planes/planes015.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/Planes/Record%20planes/r3.jpg

[Sean Hughto]

A 4 1/2 is wider, not longer. It's really just a matter of personal prefernce. The 4 1/2, of coures is heavier which some think is good for momentum and others think is bad to lift on the return stroke. It can be harder to push a wider blade (and heavier plane) as it is cutting more wood, but with smoother thin shavings this is rarely very noticeable. It's really 6 of one half dozen of the other with personal prefences ruling on the tie.

Oh, and if we're doing pictures:







http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3469/3354647916_7d5c6e017a_b.jpg

;)

[Bill Houghton]

A 4 1/2 is wider, not longer.

It was my understanding that, at least in the Stanley flavor, the 4-1/2 was an inch longer (10") than the 4 (9"). Not a significant difference, though.

[Sean Hughto]

Sorry, you are absolutely right, Bill, that technically, the 4 1/2 models (from Stanley, LN or others) tend to be slightly longer - like an inch or less. I guess my point was that the extra length is not the selling point of this plane for most woodworkers, but rather its noticeable added width and additional mass.

[Sean Hughto]

For what it may be worth to the OP, here is a pic that happens to have the LN 4 and 4 1/2 together (the two middle shelves). I think it shows farily well how the 4 1/2 is essentially just a beefier smoother all around. Sometimes that beef is good and sometimes something a little more agile is good. It depends what you're making and how you like to work.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3460/3230617098_594aabe8da_b.jpg

[Jim Koepke]

Russ,
You do not mention if you would be buying new or used.

If used, the #4 will be cheaper in most cases. New, there isn't a whole lot of difference in the prices.

I like both.

For wide smoothing of course the #4-1/2 is nice. It is also nice on smaller items. My problem comes with having 3 #4s that are set up for different tasks. The #4-1/2 is set for light to medium shavings. For skew planing to lower the effective angle, the #4-1/2 has the #4 beat.

jim

[jerry nazard]

Oh, and if we're doing pictures:







http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3469/3354647916_7d5c6e017a_b.jpg

;)

Sean,

Oink!

-Jerry

[Jim Koepke]

OK, here is an Oink, Oink picture. This picture is over three years old. A few of these planes are no longer mine. Besides, more have been acquired in that time, at least more have come than have gone.

123965

My thoughts were to go take a new picture, but then it is hot and that would be a lot of work.

jim

[philip marcou]

A good #4 is the only plane I don't have in my arsenal. Any thoughts on which would be a better smoother. I have 2 #3's a smooth and corrugated bottom. Is the only difference between the two is the length ? The 4 1/2 being longer.

The Stanley type #4.1/2 is 10inches long and takes a wider blade at 2.3/8ths inches against the #4 at 9 inches with 2 inch blade. It is just over 1 lb heavier.
I strongly feel that the #4.1/2 is the better smoother for general furniture making as the extra weight makes all the difference to the way the plane works: much less prone to chatter and easier to work with for extended periods. Taking the same blade as a #5.1/2, #6 and #7 is a bonus.
The English ones tend to be slightly wider because the casting is thicker so there is a bit more weight.
Having refurbished dozens of both sizes , both American and English plus a few Canadian and Australian versions I have come to the conclusion that the wider model was /is better made and intended for the tradesman originally.
I could happily do without a #4 but not the 4.1/2-maybe that is a habit built up over about 40 years use of the wider one, I don't know. I would rather pair up a #3 with the #4.1/2.
The most important difference between the two is, I think, the difference in operation.
Dem's my thoughts.

[Martin Cash]

The Stanley type #4.1/2 is 10inches long and takes a wider blade at 2.3/8ths inches against the #4 at 9 inches with 2 inch blade. It is just over 1 lb heavier.
I strongly feel that the #4.1/2 is the better smoother for general furniture making as the extra weight makes all the difference to the way the plane works: much less prone to chatter and easier to work with for extended periods. Taking the same blade as a #5.1/2, #6 and #7 is a bonus.
The English ones tend to be slightly wider because the casting is thicker so there is a bit more weight.
Having refurbished dozens of both sizes , both American and English plus a few Canadian and Australian versions I have come to the conclusion that the wider model was /is better made and intended for the tradesman originally.
I could happily do without a #4 but not the 4.1/2-maybe that is a habit built up over about 40 years use of the wider one, I don't know. I would rather pair up a #3 with the #4.1/2.
The most important difference between the two is, I think, the difference in operation.
Dem's my thoughts.

I agree.
For years my only handplane was a Stanley 4 1/2 and it did almost everything. Next was a block plane and lastly a number 7.
I have many more now, but could easily survive on just those three.
If I could have only one plane - it would be my 4 1/2.
Cheers
MC

[John Keeton]

Besides, more have been acquired in that time, at least more have come than have gone....
123965
jimI made this statement in another thread, and from the above post, it should be stated again! "....like most addicts, I have learned early on to lay the blame elsewhere - so, again publicly, I blame Jim Koepke for this illness:D

Were it not for his constant, informative, and enticing posts - motivated by his quest to create a working tool from nothing, I would be a productive individual able to go about my business during the day without thought to the next "find." Honestly, I don't know how he lives with the guilt!! "

What more proof does one need!!;)

Russ, to the original question, why not get the first good one that comes available, and then look for the other. You know you want to own both:D

[Dominic Greco]

A good #4 is the only plane I don't have in my arsenal. Any thoughts on which would be a better smoother. I have 2 #3's a smooth and corrugated bottom. Is the only difference between the two is the length ? The 4 1/2 being longer.

Russ,
I believe your question about the size difference has been answered. But as far as the usefulness of a 4 1/2 versus a 4, that's a good question. :D;)

I have a Type 15 No 4 and a 604 that were my go to planes for smoothing. That is until about a year ago when I got a LN 4 1/2 from a guy who was selling off his LN collection. A slight honing and it was taking such beautiful full width shavings that I was hooked.:D The mass and the width just combine to make one hell of a smoother.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z287/DominicGreco/LN45_4A.jpg

I liked it so much that I decided to tune up a Stanley Type 11 No 4 1/2 I had laying around. Once that was turned I could almost duplicate the LN 4 1/2 performance.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z287/DominicGreco/No45_After_3.jpg

Now when I want to smooth out a board the plane I reach for most often is one of my No 4 1/2s.

[Sean Hughto]

Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, whoa now. Think of all the planes I don't have:

- no 8
- no 6
- no 45 or 55
- no skew block
- no skew rabbet
- no dado plane
- no wall full of scores of molding planes of every profile
- no infills
- no Marcou's
etc.

In short, I am woefully plane difficient. <sobs>:D

[David Keller NC]

Russ - You don't say whether you're looking to buy an antique Stanley or a new Lie-Nielsen (or perhaps a new Lee Valley). There's one item related to buying a new L-N that others haven't yet mentioned.

Besides the difference in width, mass, and length, there is a difference between L-N's offerings for higher-angle frogs. In the 4-1/2, you can get a 50 degree HAF, or a 55 degree HAF. In the 4, the only HAF that's available is a 50 degree.

If you're mostly using well-behaved hardwoods, I would not personally suggest getting the plane with a higher angle frog - there is a significant difference in the effort required to push the plane between 45 and 55 degrees, as well as decreased edge life. Also, you can very easily put a small back-bevel on the blade to increase the cutting angle if you've got the very occasional highly-figured maple board that needs planing.

And on the antique side, as Jim Koepke mentioned, #4-1/2s are significantly more expensive than a #4, though not bank-account breaking unless you're looking for a Bedrock 4-1/2.

This is my own preference, but I prefer the LN bronze #4. It's got some extra mass over the iron #4, and I prefer a smaller, more nimble plane for furniture work. The only time I've wished I had a wider smoother is doing very large panel work - such as a large tabletop. In those cases, I switch to a L-N 5-1/2, which is as wide as the 4-1/2, though longer.

[Russ Massery]

Wow thanks guys for all the input.

Jim, I'm looking at used right now. Any suggestion on type Stanleys to look for?

David, I'm mostly looking at old Stanley right now. Unless deal on a L.N. comes around.

John,Your no help in this matter.:rolleyes: Just helping to spread the illness. You just know I'll end up with both.

Sean, You should seek professional help You have it real bad.

David, Martin, Philip, Thanks for your input as well.

Dominic That's great to see the performance of a LN can been matched with a little tuning.

Well the hunt is on............

[Sean Hughto]

Russ, I think it's just a matter of being at it for a while. At first, I had only the Stanley's which all cost less than $100, and most cost less than $30. Next you start getting specialty planes like groovers, rabbets, and such that you need. Then relatives start giving you LN gift certificates and such at holidays, and you try some LN's to fill in the gaps - stuff like the low angle jack, rabbet block, and miter plane. Over the years, it all adds up. I use them all.

By the way, I'm guessing that there are many folks here who have stables that would dwarf mine, and certainly there are those with much more fine sets - all bedrocks or LN or Marcou, for example.

[jerry nazard]

Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, whoa now. Think of all the planes I don't have:

- no 8
- no 6
- no 45 or 55
- no skew block
- no skew rabbet
- no dado plane
- no wall full of scores of molding planes of every profile
- no infills
- no Marcou's
etc.

In short, I am woefully plane difficient. <sobs>:D

Sean,

Funny you should mention a #8: I'm working on a type 11 No. 8C as we speak. I did not spot any Millers Falls in your blatantly obscene photograph. A MF #10 (4 1/2) is possibly my favorite plane - it is quite useful. I have a number of Millers Falls (3, 4, 4 1/2, 5, & 6) and have found them to be excellent users. I do not have any LV or LN's so why don't I swap with you for some Millers Falls..... <gr>.

-Jerry

[Ron Petley]

I came across a stanley 5 1/2 which I did not buy at first, when I went back to get it I spotted a record 04, so of course I bought them both.
I have not had the chance to tune them up and use them yet, but looking at them I am more intrested in trying out the record 04. The blades seem the same width (o4 and 51/2) but the record is short and solidly hefty.
Before the influences of this site I was happly planing away with my record #3 and record block plane, stanley was not really on my radar, so it is nice to see a little blue here now and again.
Cheers Ron.

[philip marcou]

I came across a stanley 5 1/2 which I did not buy at first, when I went back to get it I spotted a record 04, so of course I bought them both.
I have not had the chance to tune them up and use them yet, but looking at them I am more interested in trying out the record 04. The blades seem the same width (o4 and 51/2) but the record is short and solidly hefty.
Before the influences of this site I was happly planing away with my record #3 and record block plane, stanley was not really on my radar, so it is nice to see a little blue here now and again.
Cheers Ron.

I know we were talking about #4's and 4.1/2's but if you go to that #5.1/2 you will see it should have a wider blade than the #4-it should be 2.3/8th's .BUT: the #5.1/2 is the most versatile size of all the Stanley types (well it is called a Jack Plane for good reason).I suggest you sort that one out well ahead of any #4.
But if you like to see more blue stuff see here: http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=231791993 . You can't buy it but might like to see a slightly different one.:)

[Martin Cash]

Phillip is right - most 5 1/2 bailey pattern planes have a 2 3/8wide blade. However earlier ones were 2 1/4 inches wide and at first glance don't look much wider than a number 4 which is 2 inches. Side by side the difference is clear.
Cheers
MC

[Matt Radtke]

Phillip is right - most 5 1/2 bailey pattern planes have a 2 3/8wide blade. However earlier ones were 2 1/4 inches wide and at first glance don't look much wider than a number 4 which is 2 inches. Side by side the difference is clear.
Cheers
MC

Indeed. I just picked up a 5 1/2 and didn't notice that it was a 2 1/4" blade until I got home. The blade is fine, so I'm not worried about replacing it. And should I find that I 'need' a full 2 3/8", I'll just get a LN.

[Mark Roderick]

Sean, I'm a really nice person, very pleasant and good-natured.

Can you please leave me your plane collection in your will? And by the way, I hear that unguided parasailing is a really cool sport.

[Matt Radtke]

Oh, and if we're doing pictures:


I can't compete with most of you, but I just started down this path in May.

[John Keeton]

Matt, you probably don't need me to say this..... but, you are on a dead run "down this path." :eek::eek::eek:

Nice accumulation there - I hesitate to use the term collection, as that may denote some sort of obsessive illness. Lord knows, you would be the first person to be so afflicted!;)

[Matt Radtke]

Nice accumulation there - I hesitate to use the term collection, as that may denote some sort of obsessive illness. Lord knows, you would be the first person to be so afflicted!;)

Oh come now! No 1, 2, 4 1/2, 5 1/4, or 8 (no.3 not pictured ;-) )! No bedrocks! I figure I'll be safe from the virus so long as I keep some holes in the stable. (The 1 and 2 being the easiest way to accomplish that)

[Sam Takeuchi]

I prefer #4-1/2 over #4 as well. I don't care so much about its extra weight, as long as it's balanced for its size. For me, the width of the blade is the major plus. Besides, I have a few good 2-3/8" blades from its bigger brothers, I can swap them around as I need it (I got more than enough 2-3/8" blades of all kinds). I have a #4, but I have no other planes use with 2" blade in my arsenal, so it's kind of a bugger to buy blades only for this one (but I have a M2 and stock HC blade for that one, so I guess it'll last a while).

[Jim Koepke]

Wow thanks guys for all the input.

Jim, I'm looking at used right now. Any suggestion on type Stanleys to look for?


That depends a lot on your preference. My accumulation is all over the place, type 4 through type 13. My opinion is the best Stanley/Bailey planes were made from 1902 - ~1930. Others will surely have different opinions. Some like the planes made during WW II because of the heavier casting.

My preference is for short knobs. That does not mean others shouldn't go for a tall knob.

Smooth vs corrugated soles is another area of personal preferences.

The beauty of many folks all type 11s or any other type is awe inspiring. But there is a place in my heart for each one of my "mutts."

One of my planes is a pre-lateral and it works fine and has shown me a lateral adjuster is convenient, but using a small mallet to adjust the blade side to side is also easy.

The other oddity is type 6 and earlier planes adjusters have a right hand thread. The late type 6 and after use a left hand thread on the adjusters.

This is not a big problem for me. It could be for others.

If you have not fettled much on planes, it may be helpful to start with some #4s. The #4 is one of the most common sizes to be found. That makes them cheap.

Of course, if a good deal on a Bedrock #604-1/2 or #604 comes along, don't hesitate to "go for the gold."

When a little pick me up is needed, all I have to do is think back to the trip through Astoria Oregon that lead me to a deal on a type 6 #4-1/2.

If a Sargent, Millers Falls or some other good user plane came up, it would be considered if the price was right.



John,Your no help in this matter.:rolleyes: Just helping to spread the illness. You just know I'll end up with both.


He has been infected by the bug and now he is a carrier...



Well the hunt is on............


Happy rust hunting, here comes the week end.

jim

[scott spencer]

Russ - You might just as well get both just so you'll have all your bases covered! (Then you can take a pic too! :D)

[Caspar Hauser]

If there can be only one then a 4 1/2.

[fred west1]

I know we were talking about #4's and 4.1/2's but if you go to that #5.1/2 you will see it should have a wider blade than the #4-it should be 2.3/8th's .BUT: the #5.1/2 is the most versatile size of all the Stanley types (well it is called a Jack Plane for good reason).I suggest you sort that one out well ahead of any #4.
But if you like to see more blue stuff see here: http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=231791993 . You can't buy it but might like to see a slightly different one.:)

I am sorry as I am going to hijack this thread just a bit to see if I can get some good information. Because I am just unsure as to how many people actually own one of Philip's planes I am also going to post this on several other boards where I am a member.

Okay, with that out of the way here is what I am looking for. A very good friend of mine on another board just ordered a S20A from Philip. I am also extremely interested in a Marcou plane and in particular the S55A. My question is does anyone on this board own a Marcou and would they be so kind as to post what you have and perhaps how it performs in relationship to a Lie-Nielsen, Veritas, etc.

To give you a bit of a background I have slowly over the last few years moved to the hand tool side of woodworking and absolutely enjoying it. The lack of sawdust, noise, the feel of the wood, etc. all of the things that you all know so well. At this point I have approx. 25 LN planes and seven Veritas. I have really become a LN junkie and because of that it is so hard for me to believe that the Marcou can perform all that much better. I do understand the beauty and the one off production of each plane and that alone is almost enough for me to pull the trigger.

Anyway, I again apologize for the hijacking and upfront thank whomever may be able to help. Just as an aside I kind of liken many of the planes made today like the Groz, Anant and the non sweetheart Stanley's of the last few years as a Ford. I se the LN, Clifton's & Veritas as Mercedes, BMWs and Lexus in no particular order. I then see the Marcou, Sauer and Steiner and Holtey as well as the other super high end planes as Lamborghini's Ferrari's and Bugatti's.

Thank you again,

Fred

[Derek Cohen]

Fred, I looked high and low, and then found this on my shelf...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Marcou%20S15/MarcouTasBlkwoodshavings1b.jpg

I do have a complete review, with comparison against the Veritas BUS and LN #4 1/2 at http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Marcou%20S15%20BU%20Smoother.html

Hope that is what you are looking for.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[fred west1]

Fred, I looked high and low, and then found this on my shelf...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Marcou%20S15/MarcouTasBlkwoodshavings1b.jpg

I do have a complete review, with comparison against the Veritas BUS and LN #4 1/2 at http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Marcou%20S15%20BU%20Smoother.html

Hope that is what you are looking for.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

What a marvelous review by you and the other two gentlemen. Have you by any chance had the opportunity to try any of Philip's other planes? Regardless, you make it very, very hard not to purchase a Marcou.

I asked this on the Australian board as well. Have any of you guys looked at possibly purchasing a Marcou and did not do so? I understand the pricing issue but really want to know if you had any other reason. Thank you again.

Fred

[fred west1]

Fred, I looked high and low, and then found this on my shelf...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Marcou%20S15/MarcouTasBlkwoodshavings1b.jpg

I do have a complete review, with comparison against the Veritas BUS and LN #4 1/2 at http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Marcou%20S15%20BU%20Smoother.html

Hope that is what you are looking for.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

I apologize but I meant to congratulate you on your Marcou and say that should you like to send it to me, I will be glad to write a review for you. I know, it is hard to believe I can be that nice but it is true.:D My review should take no longer than 15-20 years but it will be exceedingly thorough. ;)

Fred

[Bill White]

I thought I was sick. You guys need to find a 12 step program. :D
Bill

[phil harold]

I thought I was sick. You guys need to find a 12 step program. :D
Bill

How many planes do I need to buy to complete the 12 step program?

[jerry nazard]

How many planes do I need to buy to complete the 12 step program?

I thought it was 12. I have completed the program almost three times and I am still buying planes....

[Jim Koepke]

I thought it was 12. I have completed the program almost three times and I am still buying planes....

I thought it was 12 of the same model and type.

jim

[fred west1]

I thought it was 12. I have completed the program almost three times and I am still buying planes....

Jerry,

I am right there with you but part of my problem is that I am not sure how to work my 12 step program when I have the majority of my planes with one company. Do you receive some kind of dispensation or is it considered worse? So many question and yet regardless I keep buying planes as well. :eek::eek: The other issue is if you buy three or four Marcou how does that rate to 28 LN? Is is purely hypothetical as right now I have no Marcou. :(

Fred

[jerry nazard]

Jerry,

The other issue is if you buy three or four Marcou how does that rate to 28 LN? Is is purely hypothetical as right now I have no Marcou. :(

Fred

I'm sure that Phillip could assist you with that segment of your recovery....

[fred west1]

I'm sure that Phillip could assist you with that segment of your recovery....

Jerry,

Correct me if I am wrong and I do think that the Marcou Fiscal Stimulus Recovery Plan has a beautiful ring to it but isn't the idea of the 12 step program to NOT buy more because if it is the other way, well let's just say I will be joining many of them tomorrow. :D:D

I love the picture of your dog. I attached pictures of my three. They are my boys. :D:D

Fred

[Sean Hughto]

Fred, if you want to branch out, but don't have the scratch for one of PM's beauties, do what I'm doing, and take a plunge into building Krenov style. The blade/breaker sets are inthe $50 range, and you probably have the wood already.

[David Keller NC]

Jerry,

Correct me if I am wrong and I do think that the Marcou Fiscal Stimulus Recovery Plan has a beautiful ring to it but isn't the idea of the 12 step program to NOT buy more because if it is the other way, well let's just say I will be joining many of them tomorrow. :D:D

I love the picture of your dog. I attached pictures of my three. They are my boys. :D:D

Fred

Fred - in an earlier post you noted that you regarded Marcou, Konrad Sauer and Holtey as high-end sports cars. What I'll note is that a Holtey infill will cost you approximately 3-4 times what a Konrad Sauer of the same design and size will cost, and perhaps as much as 6 times as much as one of Phillips. And about 10 times as much as one you didn't mention - Ron Brese. You also have the option of Wayne Anderson, who does something a little different. His infills aren't a close reproduction of any one particular historic brand (such as Spiers or Norris).

One other thing to realize is that Philip generally makes a different design than Holtey, Sauer, Anderson, Brese - his are bevel-up, non-infill planes. Anyway, if knowing that you'll be spending 1/6th as much as a Holtey for one of Philip's planes provides an excuse, you're welcome. :D

[jerry nazard]

Jerry,


I love the picture of your dog. I attached pictures of my three. They are my boys. :D:D

Fred

Thanks, Fred! Here's a recent shot of Mr. Banjo watching me cook dinner:

[fred west1]

Fred, if you want to branch out, but don't have the scratch for one of PM's beauties, do what I'm doing, and take a plunge into building Krenov style. The blade/breaker sets are inthe $50 range, and you probably have the wood already.

Sean,

That sounds great. Have you built any of them yet and if so how did it turn out?

Fred

[fred west1]

Fred - in an earlier post you noted that you regarded Marcou, Konrad Sauer and Holtey as high-end sports cars. What I'll note is that a Holtey infill will cost you approximately 3-4 times what a Konrad Sauer of the same design and size will cost, and perhaps as much as 6 times as much as one of Phillips. And about 10 times as much as one you didn't mention - Ron Brese. You also have the option of Wayne Anderson, who does something a little different. His infills aren't a close reproduction of any one particular historic brand (such as Spiers or Norris).

One other thing to realize is that Philip generally makes a different design than Holtey, Sauer, Anderson, Brese - his are bevel-up, non-infill planes. Anyway, if knowing that you'll be spending 1/6th as much as a Holtey for one of Philip's planes provides an excuse, you're welcome. :D

David,

I really like your logic and other than my dogs I have no SWMBO that might think the money could be better suited for something foolish such as jewlery, trips shoes or other completely non-essential items. :D:D

I am very much hoping to meet Ron Brese at the upcoming Woodworking in America show in October. I am also hoping to have used enough "extra" money to purchase a Marcou and so not be as tempted by Ron's planes. Not too mention Sauer & Steiner and Clark & Williams.

Fred

[fred west1]

Thanks, Fred! Here's a recent shot of Mr. Banjo watching me cook dinner:

Jerry,

Mr. Banjo is not only a very handsome dog but he has a great name. What breed is he and how old? Does he spend time in your shop with you. My two big ones love the shop and my only issue with them is tripping over them.:D:D

Fred

[jerry nazard]

Fred,

Banjo is a 2 year old border collie mix. He, as was his predecessor (also a border mix), are not allowed in the shop. I can very easily just trip over myself, thank you....!

-Jerry

[fred west1]

Fred,

Banjo is a 2 year old border collie mix. He, as was his predecessor (also a border mix), are not allowed in the shop. I can very easily just trip over myself, thank you....!

-Jerry

Jerry,

We used to have a border collie when I was very, very young and he was wonderful. As far as tripping over the dogs, I have so much else to trip over I know see it all as a challenge.:D:D However, having moved further and further to hand tools the risks of tripping and having the resulting injuries has very much diminished.

Fred

[philip marcou]

Thanks, Fred! Here's a recent shot of Mr. Banjo watching me cook dinner:

I attach pictures of "a poor man's dogs".
You can see that the white one is keen on cooking whilst the dark one is , well, a lazy loafer -he only gets excited when hunting rabbits.

[phil harold]

Thanks, Fred! Here's a recent shot of Mr. Banjo watching me cook dinner:
my mutt gives me those same loving eyes while i cook it a cat for dinner :eek:

[fred west1]

my mutt gives me those same loving eyes while i cook it a cat for dinner :eek:

Phil,

My three dogs might not eat the cat but they would sure chase it all over the house. As much fun as that sounds we are speaking about 305 pounds worth of dogs. My guess is that sheerly by accident the house would be totaled.:eek::eek::D

Fred

[jerry nazard]

I attach pictures of "a poor man's dogs".
You can see that the white one is keen on cooking whilst the dark one is , well, a lazy loafer -he only gets excited when hunting rabbits.

Philip,

Rabbits! I have a back yard teeming with rabbits and both the dog and cat just sit around and watch them. No rabbit stew for me.

Your cats are quite handsome animals - is the white one a full-time chef?

-Jerry

[philip marcou]

Gerry,
" is the white one a full-time chef?"
I think it would prefer to be a full time nanny- it is hard to get away from her as she follows me everywhere. Several times had to turn back to unload one cat from my car....