Main Panel Feedback

[George Bregar]

For my shop build out I am tryingto decide on a service panel. Home Depot has a Siemens 100A "Value pack" for $59. I have installed new circuits in existing panels (so in advance please no "hire an electrician" comments) but really don't know what to look for in a quality panel. Here are the specs:

http://www2.sea.siemens.com/NR/rdonlyres/CC34B3C0-864C-49EE-923A-FA227E08298F/0/Ultimatevaluepak.pdf

It's the Model G2020B1100CP

100A/20 circuits will be fine even with expansion, so not worried about that.

What do you electrical experts think?

Thanks in advance

[David G Baker]

I am no expert but I have at least 5 Siemens sub panels and have been very satisfied with them. Their breakers have been fine, are very available and I especially like their double gang and quad gang breakers. The prices are very reasonable as well.
My electrician uses Cutler Hammer and I have a couple of them. One is my main panel and one as a sub panel. I think that Cutler Hammer is a little better quality than Siemens and cost more for panels and breakers.
Then there is Square "D". I don't especially care for the Home-Line Square "D" products but the Q line I like. Square "D" I probably the most available and may be of the highest quality but you will pay for that extra quality.

[Dave Wagner]

Any of this style box should work. I believe mine is a 60A Square D box with 6-8 circuits. I have a couple lighting (15a) , a few outlet breakers (20A) and a dedicated 30A - 220v. I also used ALL GFCI (required for wet areas). I put the 60A breakers in the MAIN box.

I believe you have to remember to separate your Ground and Neutral Bus bars are all subpanels (make sure they are not hooked together) and run all 4 wires from you main box (Line 1, Line 2, Neutral & Ground).

here a good article I used and had no problems with mine and the inspector had no problems either.

http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/elect/panel/sub_panel/01/new.htm

[Tom Godley]

I like the Square D but you can use any panel taht is suted for the location.

I am not sure of the current code regarding the need for a "main" in a sub-panel. They are nice as you can turn off the sub-panel without going back to the main panel.

Unless you are going with a 100 amp feed I believe the 100amp main in the kit would not be allowed.

[Prashun Patel]

I just went thru this in my basement. Beware of the HD breaker boxes. Some of the brands have wiggly slots. Some brands (like Square D) have a Home series and a pro series (QO).

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I'm no expert, but I'll give my .02. If it was me, I'd get the same brand as your house panel. That way, in an emergency, and you needed to swap out breakers, you could do it. IMO there is very little differences in panels, they all do the same thing. There are breaker quality differences, though. But as long as they do the job intended, they should all be fine. If you get the same brand, if you're the type that has spares at home, you only need 1 brand. And breakers may or may not fit other brand's panels.

Yeah yeah I know, if the breaker blows you should find out why it blew. But sometimes you have to replace the breaker to find out what the problem is.

[Michael Wetzel]

I usually buy Square D since the local hardware stores stock the breakers. The last thing I want is something you can only purchase at a supply house.

[Jason Beam]

I chose mine based on the ease of availability of my circuit needs. Some guys frown a little on the slim breakers but when I had 5 220v circuits to put in, I wanted the thin ones to keep my 24pos panel from getting way too full. My local BORGS had Cutler Hammer in the 20a quad breakers I wanted for 4 of my 220v circuits. Some of those brands don't have the same selection at the BORGS so I went with the most plentiful in my area (for now, of course).

[Tom Godley]

I should have mentioned that Square D does make two types -- I always go with the QO not the Homeline.

[George Bregar]

Let me add that this will not be a sub-panel. The three car garage is 250' from the house. Up hill. Over a driveway. With woods in between. And lots and lots of rocks in the ground. Burying a feeder plus the cost of the wire would be prohibitive. I would also have to upgrade the main in the home. So I will have the utility bring poer directly to the garage. SOmeday I hope to build a home uo on the hill so this will become a sub off that...if and when,

Thanks everyone for the responses, but saying "I like brand x" really doesn't help. I think every major brand has been mentioned! :D

I really am looking for specifics, like "copper bus", etc. that make it a good panel....or a bad choice.

[Buck Williams]

I'd take the money and run, $59 is a good deal, Siemens, Cutler Hammer and Square-D all make good quality load centers. Circuit breakers have to meet certain standards to make the UL Listing, you shouldn't have a quality problem with any of the breakers. If you get in a bind for a replacement breaker, Cutler Hammer BR series breakers will fit in a Siemens panel.

[George Bregar]

I'd take the money and run, $59 is a good deal, Siemens, Cutler Hammer and Square-D all make good quality load centers. Circuit breakers have to meet certain standards to make the UL Listing, you shouldn't have a quality problem with any of the breakers. If you get in a bind for a replacement breaker, Cutler Hammer BR series breakers will fit in a Siemens panel. Thanks Buck. I have read good reviews on the Siemens, and it seems to have some ease of install features.

[David G Baker]

George,
You can always go over head with the wire. I see that a lot here in rural Michigan. If you do a utility run to your garage you will have a monthly minim fee that will cost more in the long run than pulling power off of your main panel. In my area of Michigan there is a monthly charge of $17 even if you use no power at all in your garage/shop.
My shop is 198 feet from my house and around 240 feet from my main breaker panel. I pull my shop power out of a sub panel in my basement, run it in 2 inch conduit to the other side of the house, then under ground to the shop. By going through the basement I cut around 40 feet off of the run.

[George Bregar]

George,
You can always go over head with the wire. I see that a lot here in rural Michigan. If you do a utility run to your garage you will have a monthly minim fee that will cost more in the long run than pulling power off of your main panel. In my area of Michigan there is a monthly charge of $17 even if you use no power at all in your garage/shop.
My shop is 198 feet from my house and around 240 feet from my main breaker panel. I pull my shop power out of a sub panel in my basement, run it in 2 inch conduit to the other side of the house, then under ground to the shop. By going through the basement I cut around 40 feet off of the run. I know but that isn't really practical. First, it's a lake home. Running another aerial cable isn't the most aesthetically pleasing solution. Second, I have to go over a driveway on an uphill run. Code requires 12 feet over a driveway IIRC...so a high mast needs to be placed...also not good. As I said earlier, I would have to upgrade the main service in the house. There is a utility pole about 20' from the garage. I'm not to concerned with a monthly fee.

The utility pole is about 15-20' from the garage, up on the top of the hill. I wouldn't mind an aerial run there, it's not near the house, and not part of the woods.

[Rod Sheridan]

George, I would specify copper bus, with bolt on breakers.

Square D QO is one such type, and should be fairly common.

Regards, Rod.

[Dustin Lorenz]

My only suggestion is to make sure it is copper and aluminum compatible. Copper is of course considered better but if it works for both the connections will stay cleaner with less chance of corrosion which causes resistance heat and finally fire :eek: and if you need to make a really long run (like how I ran four 30 amp outlets out to where my friends come and camp by our pond/rec area) you can save some money and use the aluminum wire and not worry about connections failing. I don't waste time with aluminum inside on short runs though.

[Rollie Meyers]

George, I would specify copper bus, with bolt on breakers.

Square D QO is one such type, and should be fairly common.

Regards, Rod.

QO circuit breakers are plug in type, if one wants bolt on breakers that requires a jump from inexpensive loadcenters to a considerably more expensive panelboards, a SQ D NQOB panel will accept QO & QOB breakers,but the last decent residential/light commercial loadcenter on the market is a Cutler-Hammer CH* "Classic", copper bus, a steel instead of plastic interior. SQ D went cheap years ago & has been skating on their past reputation.

*Cutler-Hammer BR loadcenters are a garbage line of panels like Murray, GE, & SQ D HomeLine.

[George Bregar]

Just got my quote for new service from the utility. They will put in 200A service...either aerial or buried, for the total cost of FREE! :D $10 minimum service per month.

Life is good.

[Rod Sheridan]

QO circuit breakers are plug in type, if one wants bolt on breakers that requires a jump from inexpensive loadcenters to a considerably more expensive panelboards, a SQ D NQOB panel will accept QO & QOB breakers,but the last decent residential/light commercial loadcenter on the market is a Cutler-Hammer CH* "Classic", copper bus, a steel instead of plastic interior. SQ D went cheap years ago & has been skating on their past reputation.

*Cutler-Hammer BR loadcenters are a garbage line of panels like Murray, GE, & SQ D HomeLine.

Thanks for the correction, complete and utter brain fade. I have a C-H BA breaker sitting on my desk so I write Sq D type QO........DUH............Thanks, Rod.

[Brad Townsend]

As for the Cutler-Hammer I have the CH for the main panel in my house and the BR for the sub in my shop building. Neither have given me any problems and breakers are readily available.

I would agree that any of the brands mentioned would give you good service.

[Bruce Wrenn]

As for having plastic interiors, that's no big deal. Only if you are constantly replacing breakers, or using breaker as an of / on switch would this be a concern. And if memory serves me correct, you have to have special breakers to use them as an off / on switch. By using a Seimans / Murry, you can use other brands of breakers in them. But they aren't UL approved for use in panels other than original manufacturer.

[Rollie Meyers]

As for having plastic interiors, that's no big deal. Only if you are constantly replacing breakers, or using breaker as an of / on switch would this be a concern. And if memory serves me correct, you have to have special breakers to use them as an off / on switch. By using a Seimans / Murry, you can use other brands of breakers in them. But they aren't UL approved for use in panels other than original manufacturer.
Plastic interiors are just a hallmark of a cheap quality panel.

Siemens breakers are not UL classified to be used in Murray panels nor are Murray breakers classified to be used in Siemens or the former named ITE brand even though the current design of both Murray & Siemens is based on the ITE design of the late 1970's which Siemens bought in the mid 1980's....

"SWD" "Switching Duty"rated breakers are required where they are used as a switch for florescent lighting, "HID" rated are required where used to switch HID "High Intensity Discharge" lighting, Metal Halide, High Pressure Sodium, etc....

There are a number of competing manufacturers who produce UL "Classified" breakers that are allowed to be used in other manufacturers panels, the paperwork will list the specific catalog numbers of the panels they are allowed to be used in, Cutler-Hammer makes a CHQ & Siemens has a QD breaker UL classified for use in some SQ D QO loadcenters.

[Bill Brady]

As stated above most any homeline style breaker will fit any homeline panel, but as was said it is not listed and this is the catch for the inspectors. As for the Murray and Siemens, Murray is made by Siemens, they are both made in Mexico. I have used all types of panels with no problems but I do prefer the SqD QO or an equivilent instead of the homeline style, the fit of the panels is normally better and the buss connections will holdup under more vibration and dirt.

[George Bregar]

Thanks for all the responses. I purchased the Siemens. Copper bus, full size panel. Has lots of neutral/ground connections (140%) and lot's of room to bring wire in. Bonding screw already in place. And comes with six 20A single pole breakers. So just need to add the three double pole 20A for the cyclone, table saw, and joiner. All will cost less than $100.

Going up this weekend to place the boxes, run wire, and install the panel and meter pedestal so I can order power and start insulating and drywalling before the snow flies. So look for other 'lectrical questions to follow! ;)

[George Bregar]

Well, got the meter pedestal and load center installed and wired. Ground rods are in. Wired in three receptacles so I can use some of my tools in build out, and temporary lighting until the drywall ceiling is up. Utility is going to run their underground today and energize tomorrow. Then it's full speed ahead until the snow flies.

[Mitchell Andrus]

I really am looking for specifics, like "copper bus", etc. that make it a good panel....or a bad choice.

I haven't seen solid copper bus bars in years. Assume if it's on the market, it's up to code. Other than that, pick one that has support in your area. If breakers for GE aren't around, use Square D. Even a lack of round knock-outs is easily solved. A punch costs about $15.00.
.

[Rob Russell]

Well, got the meter pedestal and load center installed and wired. Ground rods are in. Wired in three receptacles so I can use some of my tools in build out, and temporary lighting until the drywall ceiling is up. Utility is going to run their underground today and energize tomorrow. Then it's full speed ahead until the snow flies.

George, I'd check the bending radius requirement on your neutral connector. It's either 8 or 12 times the conductor radius and that bend is tighter than either of those.

Where is the conductoir from the ground rods tied in?

[David Hostetler]

I'm no expert, but I can say this...

Siemens isn't exactly the first brand name that comes up when talking boxes or breakers. Down the road, should a breaker require replacement, or addition, they may be substantially harder to find than a comparable GE or Square D.

[George Bregar]

I'm no expert, but I can say this...

Siemens isn't exactly the first brand name that comes up when talking boxes or breakers. Down the road, should a breaker require replacement, or addition, they may be substantially harder to find than a comparable GE or Square D. Home Depot carries them. And Lowes. Add the fact that I can have on hand a replacement 20A SP and 20A DP for $13....

[Richard Jones]

I don't see that big ol' #6 bare copper in your panel.

"If breakers for GE aren't around, use Square D. " I don't believe they are interchangeable, are they?

Rich

[Rollie Meyers]

I'm no expert, but I can say this...

Siemens isn't exactly the first brand name that comes up when talking boxes or breakers. Down the road, should a breaker require replacement, or addition, they may be substantially harder to find than a comparable GE or Square D.

The line Siemens is selling used to branded I-T-E, ITE Circuit Breaker Co. , ITE Imperial Corp, Gould/ITE, which have been around a long time.They also made the "Pushmatic" circuit breakers which were branded Bulldog & later as I-T-E...


The breakers have been around a long time....

[Alan Trout]

George, if this is the only panel being fed by the service you will need a main disconnect if there are going to be over 6 breakers in that panel. That is code. In my neck of the woods typically you see a main panel at the exterior of the building or on the power pole in rural areas with fewer than 6 breakers or a main disconnect for that panel if there are over 6 breakers and then breakers feed sub-panels from that exterior main service panel.

Good Luck

Alan

[George Bregar]

George, if this is the only panel being fed by the service you will need a main disconnect if there are going to be over 6 breakers in that panel. That is code. In my neck of the woods typically you see a main panel at the exterior of the building or on the power pole in rural areas with fewer than 6 breakers or a main disconnect for that panel if there are over 6 breakers and then breakers feed sub-panels from that exterior main service panel.

Good Luck

Alan As long as the main panel is within 8' of the meter pedestal then no disconnect is required. They are back to back. Not that anyone would know. No inspection is required because it is an existing structure. Still waiting for the utility to install the meter and energize the service. Lots of storms Monday up north and they are a little behind.

[George Bregar]

George, I'd check the bending radius requirement on your neutral connector. It's either 8 or 12 times the conductor radius and that bend is tighter than either of those.

Where is the conductoir from the ground rods tied in? The panel will not be inspected. So is this a dangerous issue? I could bring it into the panel and route it the same as the two hot connectors. Brought it to the right just so I would not take up too much space on the left for branch circuit wiring. The ground rods are tied to the neutral/ground bus with #6 bare copper as shown in the attachment (lower left).

[Richard Jones]

I believe the bend is in compliance and the 100a main breaker IS the disconnect. The 6-throw rule only applies if there's NOT a disconnect. Not sure I understand any problem here. I see a bare ground wire (assuming it is tied to the ground rods with an approved connector and the rods are 6' (min.) apart). I also see that big green bonding screw, neutral is identified, correct bushing, neutral and ground buses connected properly.

I would approve this, assuming the ground rods are OK. We don't get into the brand of breakers being in that particular brand of panel, tho' strictly speaking, the only approved breakers should be those listed and labeled to be in that panel. Some of the panels now ARE listed and labeled with brands of breakers other than their own. I'm just not that anal about brand names. Common sense vs. letter of the law and all that........

Does anyone see anything specifically wrong with this install? The only thing I see is that the two utility companies in my jurisdiction don't want you hooking up ANYTHING in THEIR meter base. But, this may be fine in your area.

Rich

[George Bregar]

I believe the bend is in compliance and the 100a main breaker IS the disconnect. The 6-throw rule only applies if there's NOT a disconnect. Not sure I understand any problem here. I see a bare ground wire (assuming it is tied to the ground rods with an approved connector and the rods are 6' (min.) apart). I also see that big green bonding screw, neutral is identified, correct bushing, neutral and ground buses connected properly.

I would approve this, assuming the ground rods are OK. We don't get into the brand of breakers being in that particular brand of panel, tho' strictly speaking, the only approved breakers should be those listed and labeled to be in that panel. Some of the panels now ARE listed and labeled with brands of breakers other than their own. I'm just not that anal about brand names. Common sense vs. letter of the law and all that........

Does anyone see anything specifically wrong with this install? The only thing I see is that the two utility companies in my jurisdiction don't want you hooking up ANYTHING in THEIR meter base. But, this may be fine in your area.

Rich I have two 5/8" 8' ground rods spaced about 10' apart, using an approved acorn clamp, with the ground wire as needed running parallel to the rod in the v-groove of the clamp. (see pic...although this is before a torqued down the clamp!)

Are you saying the service entrance neutral conductor bend is okay? That would be reassuring because they are installing the meter and energizing it tomorrow and I would not be real excited about rerouting it. In my research I saw nothing regarding bend radius.

As far as the work in the meter pedestal, the utility requires the customer installation of an approved pedestal off their list (mine is), and the wiring between the pedestal and main panel completed. Their service is 200A, so 2/0 copper was required. They also require code compliant grounding.

[Richard Jones]

Yes, I'm saying I would approve the bend, doesn't look too short to me at all. There is some NEC language that addresses bends/radius (radii?) of cables. Too short tends to become too hot.

Again, as far as what I can see of the pics, I think it's OK. Let us know how your energize goes...........

Rich

[Rob Russell]

No inspection is required because it is an existing structure. Still waiting for the utility to install the meter and energize the service.

OK - where I live, a new service means permit + inspection.

[Rob Russell]

I've looked for the specific code cite on bending radius and have not found it. I found it for volts over 600V, but not under 600V. I don't have the time right now to keep searching.

[Alan Trout]

George, I am sorry but that is not code. Here is 2006 IRC

E3501.7 Maximum number of disconnects.
The service disconnecting means shall consist of not more than six switches or six circuit breakers mounted in a single enclosure or in a group of separate enclosures.

If you want to refer to NEC that is 230.71 which says basically the same thing. That might be OK by your local authorities but that is not what is written in code.

I am a professional inspector so this is something I deal with every day. I just want you to be safe. The other issue of not having a disconnect if you ever need to add additional breakers you will have to wire the panel hot or you will have to pull the meter to disconnect that panel.

Good Luck

Alan

[Richard Jones]

George, I am sorry but that is not code. Here is 2006 IRC

E3501.7 Maximum number of disconnects.
The service disconnecting means shall consist of not more than six switches or six circuit breakers mounted in a single enclosure or in a group of separate enclosures.

If you want to refer to NEC that is 230.71 which says basically the same thing. That might be OK by your local authorities but that is not what is written in code.

I am a professional inspector so this is something I deal with every day. I just want you to be safe. The other issue of not having a disconnect if you ever need to add additional breakers you will have to wire the panel hot or you will have to pull the meter to disconnect that panel.

Good Luck

Alan

Alan,

There is a 100a breaker in the top of the panel that is the service disconnect. Maybe you can't see it in the pic.

Rich

[Richard Jones]

I've looked for the specific code cite on bending radius and have not found it. I found it for volts over 600V, but not under 600V. I don't have the time right now to keep searching.

Bob,

Assuming this is SE or similar, 338.24, NEC 2005.

In reality, the bend where the cable enters the cabinet at the bottom is tighter or just as tight, due to space restrictions, i.e., the actual depth of the cabinet, so I believe the bend at the neutral to be in compliance. I can't really see this as a potential problem, can you? If the jacket starts to deform on the inside curve, then there may be a problem, but I see this as a smooth, even bend and can't imagine any heat build in this area, especially considering the potential load.

Am I looking at this wrong?

Rich

[Alan Trout]

Sorry, I could not see it in the pic. That is what I was asking. As Gilda Radner use to say "Never Mind"


Thanks,

Alan

[George Bregar]

Utility has done their connection. I have power. Now I can get to finishing wiring, drywalling the ceiling, removing and walling off the door car gargae door, OSB'ing the walls.... :eek: