More Forrest woes!!

[Gene Collison]

I posted the other day in John Miliunas's thread about the fact that I had seen evidence of poor quality brazing on a particular Forrest blade that I own. I checked a brand new unused Forrest WW2 in my blade inventory, attached is a close up picture of what I have found. I removed the sealing wax on only 2 of the teeth for photo purposes, I wanted to keep it new so I can sell it. I don't even want to mount it on my saw because there are many more teeth in the same condition! The picture as I see it shows a square notch cut in the blade body with the tooth not even setting in the notch or contoured to it but away from it and filled with a brazing alloy that is clearly filled with porosity. Silver solder is a close fit only brazing allow, it should never be used to bridge gaps. I can go into the details if someone want to know how it should be but I think it's pretty self explanatory. In short, it's a lousy low quality job, an accident ready to happen IMHO. I have also attached pictures of a Dewalt Series 60, Freud 80 tooth, CMT General for workmanship comparison. The CMT General looks like it is good for 1 sharpening only, really skimpy on the carbide but a great performing blade otherwise. The Dewalt, Freud, and CMT show suberb workmanship in comparison, the silver braze feathers out in each with no porosity showing. The tooth fits the countour cut for it like it should. I also have a Ridge carbide blade that I didn't shoot because it's on my saw. It is basically about the same build quality as the Dewalt 60 but costs twice as much.

[thomas prevost]

SCARY!!! Again, Forrest should be aware that these are being posted an many woodworking forums. I examined my blade with a loop. many brazing pits but not anything like this photo. I think mine may make a clock as I value my safety.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Gene, That's very interesting; I guess no manufacturer is perfect but maybe the bigger ones have more automated equipment to avoid the problem seen in your pictures. I don't really know. But do you really want to sell that blade to somebody knowing they may be injured with it? I'm not a lawyer but you may have some liability selling something with a know safety defect. Alan in Md.

[Gene Collison]

Gene, That's very interesting; I guess no manufacturer is perfect but maybe the bigger ones have more automated equipment to avoid the problem seen in your pictures. I don't really know. But do you really want to sell that blade to somebody knowing they may be injured with it? I'm not a lawyer but you may have some liability selling something with a know safety defect. Alan in Md.

Alan, I may have to eat this blade, I can't sell it based on what I know about it. I wouldn't want to see someone else get that tooth imbedded in their eye or worse. And I don't really feel like going through the hassle that John M. just went through. Also, since I have another Forrest that is not as bad but not good by any means, I really don't think I even want another one.

Gene

[Martin Shupe]

It is a shame to see Forrest products of such poor quality. It makes me think twice about buying a blade of theirs ever again.

I have 3 Forrest blades, all several years old, but I don't think any look like yours, at least I hope not. I will check as soon as I get home.

I always thought that Forrest blades were worth the extra money, now I am not sure at all.

Have you tried to return the blade for a full refund? If they won't give you a full refund, perhaps a class action lawsuit is in order. :eek:

I am sure I will get some jeers for that statement, but how else do you get a company's attention these days?

[Kevin Gerstenecker]

I'm no expert, but I do know that I will be pulling my WWII off my saw in the morning, cleaning it up good, and giving it a REAL good looking over. I haven't had any problems with them so far, but I do cut some hard exotic woods and the last thing I want is some Carbide in my forehead! :eek:
Thanks for posting the pictures Gene..............it wouldn't hurt for all of us to give our blade inventory a good, once over. Sheesh, gives me the willies just thinking about the potential danger.

[Jamie Buxton]

Alan, I may have to eat this blade, I can't sell it based on what I know about it. I wouldn't want to see someone else get that tooth imbedded in their eye or worse. And I don't really feel like going through the hassle that John M. just went through. Also, since I have another Forrest that is not as bad but not good by any means, I really don't think I even want another one.

Gene

Gene ---

So you're saying this blade is trash for you. You don't want to run it yourself, and you don't want to sell it. (BTW, I wholeheartedly agree with you.) The easy thing to do is to throw it away and get on with your life, and I might do that myself. However, you might consider doing something for the woodworking community, which is to try to help Forrest get better.

Here's what you do... You send the blade back to Forrest, pointing out what you believe is a manufacturing problem. Don't bother getting involved with whether they send you a replacement. (After all, you've already decided to eat the cost of this blade -- this is just a different way for you to throw away the blade.) Just tell them about their screw-up. Me, I've never dealt with Forrest, but my Polly-anna view of the world is that they're probably responsible folks who want to do well. If that's right, bad blades returning from customers should scare them into re-examining their manufacturing process. If that happens, there will be fewer of our fellow woodworkers who lose an eye, thanks to your efforts.

Of course, I have to admit that maybe I'm naive, and your efforts won't change a darn thing. But why not give it a shot? It'll only cost you a few minutes to pack the blade, and $5 for postage.

Jamie

[thomas prevost]

Gene,

I cannot believe they are unaware of the problems. Post have been on the OAK forum as well as many others including this forum in the past year. This means many are complaining to them and returning blades. Their initial response has been to bluff the customer, then if returned make him pay for the shipping and repair. When PR is needed give a few blades away to the heavyweights as they did on the OAK forum (not the people who had the bad blades). Action will probably only take place when there is a liability suit and their insurance company forces a recall. It is too bad as the design is great.

[Gene Collison]

Gene what you believe is a manufacturing problem. Don't bother getting involved with whether they send you a replacement. (After all, you've already decided to eat the cost of this blade -- this is just a different way for you to throw away the blade.) Just tell them about their screw-up. Me, I've never dealt with Forrest, but my Polly-anna view of the world is that they're probably responsible folks who want to do well. If that's right, bad blades returning from customers should scare them into re-examining their manufacturing process. If that happens, there will be fewer of our fellow woodworkers who lose an eye, thanks to your efforts.

Of course, I have to admit that maybe I'm naive, and your efforts won't change a darn thing. But why not give it a shot? It'll only cost you a few minutes to pack the blade, and $5 for postage.

Jamie

I may use your suggestion, I'm waiting for this thread to run its course and see what others have to say. I really don't want another Forrest, their build techniques to me are way behind their competitors. Their braze joining techniques would fail x-ray every time. They need technical help and a good QC guy.

Gene

[Gene Collison]

Have you tried to return the blade for a full refund? If they won't give you a full refund, perhaps a class action lawsuit is in order. :eek:

I am sure I will get some jeers for that statement, but how else do you get a company's attention these days?
Martin,

I haven't tried anything yet, not sure what I am going to do if anything. A refund would be a good thing for me, I don't want another one of their blades yet!

Gene

[Jerry Olexa]

Gene, thanks for the detailed analysis and pics. Makes me think even more about my current dissapointment w that blade!!

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Alan, I may have to eat this blade, I can't sell it based on what I know about it. I wouldn't want to see someone else get that tooth imbedded in their eye or worse. And I don't really feel like going through the hassle that John M. just went through. Also, since I have another Forrest that is not as bad but not good by any means, I really don't think I even want another one.

Gene

I would think any company that wants to stay in business would correct an obvious manufacturing defect and do it for free. All they have to do is look at smart companies like Lee Valley, Rockler, Tauton Press (remember the copied DVD fiasco?) etc. Now those people know how to treat their customers with no tricks involved. Just straight up good customer service. But then again maybe Forrest has all the business it wants and doesn't care. Some of the posts here make me think this may be the case or just plain arrogance. Alan in Md.

[Greg Mann]

Gene,

I agree with Jamie about sending it to Forrest. It does not make sense for a company to put all the effort they have into the equipment to produce the blades and sharpen them to the quality they do and risk it all on shoddy brazing. I question how much they do know about the extent of the problem they have. Manufacturing processes can get out of control, bad product can be made, and a manufacturer can think they have it all quarantined when they do not. There may be manufacturing codes on your blade that can help them understand the extent of their problem and determine if they need to issue a recall and what the scope of it should be. If you are concerned about safety, and I agree that you should be, then help them by returning the blade.

Greg

[Greg Mann]

Gene,

Since John has not been able to report back on the disposition of his blade yet it may be premature to describe it as "all the hassle" he has gone through. It is important to see if they are going to do right by him. Having said that, your pics clearly show that they have a real problem with at least some significant number of blades, so replacement of a blade or two is probably not the real issue. I just know that we get reports of less than satisfactory parts that we make now and then where I work and it is important to see what the customer sees. Sometimes the damage is after other people have handled them (not the type of damage you have documented) or some other assignable cause beyond our control. Let's put the ball in Forrest's court and see what they do.

Greg

[Dennis Peacock]

Three words:

Everlast
or
Amana

End of story!!!!!

[aurelio alarcon]

That is a scary photo! Just goes to show you that you don't always get what you pay for. Just because it costs more doesn't always mean your getting more. And by the way, my DeWalt and Craftsman blades at half the price are doing just fine thank you very much.

[John Miliunas]

Hey folks...The guy in the big brown truck picked up my blade on Wednesday, but in looking at the tracking status, it's not even due at Forrest Mfg. until Wednesday, so who know how long it will take and what the outcome will be. I will, however say that, at this point, if Forrest decides to replace the blade with a new one, I will now be armed with the information and better knowledge of what to look for when inspecting it. :)

There is one other thing, which has come of this, though I can't say whether it will make a difference or not. I received a reply back from Dave M. at 3D Blades and he seemed genuinely interested in what was happening. I then sent him off the two thread listings (my own and this one from Gene). Dave took it upon himself to print them and is sending them on to Jim Forrest Jr., at the factory! :) I have no idea if there will be a response from the factory, but if it spotlights an issue, which they can then correct, then people may start regaining confidence in the product. At this point, we don't even know how global this issue may even be. There are still an awful lot of satisfied Forrest owners out there. It could be they all got quality blades. They're probably not as knowledgeable in the specifics of the process as Gene is. They may have just gotten lucky and a "bad" blade hasn't failed. Maybe a combination of any two of the above. I certainly hope that it is NOT something very widespread and that it's mostly on the part of my inheritance, that being, bad luck! :rolleyes:

I'll let you know if I hear anything further from our friend at 3d or from Forrest. I'm sincerely hoping it's good news! :cool:

[Mark Singer]

Gene,
I find your evaluation very informative! Even if Forrest stands behind Johns problem....why spend more money and have to deal with it. I will compare all my different blades tomorrow and report on the comparison. I can't remeber even losing a tooth except on a framing blade in my Skillsaw, probably from hitting a nail. The Dewalt , Systematic and Mastercut give similar results in terms of smoothness of cut.

[Mark Singer]

Gene,
I checked my blades and here is what I found:

The Forrest WWII seems a bit better than yours , however the largest gaps in the brazing and the teeth. This blade is fairly new...it cuts very good and all teeth are in place.

Dewalt: Thick carbide, very well seated and brazed...very fine performance on a variety of cuts!

Systematic: Very thick carbide , very precisely brazed and seated. For whatever reason...I never liked the cut from this combo blade.

Mastercut: Very thin carbide on both the 24 tooth rip and the 80 tooth finish...brazed and seated quite well. These blades perform very well, although the carbide seems very thin they last long and cut well.

Freud: Very precise seating of the carbide. Cut well at first seemed to lose sharpness fast.

Festool blade on plunge saw. Very nicley made blade and performs extremely well!

Forrest CMS blade for Hitachi 81/2" Carbide is much lighter than on the 10" blade. Seating is better. Cuts very well.

It appears that the quality control of the Forrest could be improved. The seating and gaps are inconsistent. The blade does perform well though.

This examination is informative and surprising....the Dewalt appears to be the best in terms of value, carbide thickness, quality of cut, and precise seating and brazing. The blade is about $43!

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00008K2TZ/ref=pd_ys_pym_a_1/102-5717658-8290535?v=glance

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong...but aren't the Forrest blades manufactured by hand (as opposed to machine)?

These folks didn't get to the 'top of the heap' by putting out shoddy product, or by not standing behind it...and until they've had approriate chance to respond, I think this thread is out of line.

One man's opinion...

KC

[Tim Morton]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong...but aren't the Forrest blades manufactured by hand (as opposed to machine)?

These folks didn't get to the 'top of the heap' by putting out shoddy product, or by not standing behind it...and until they've had approriate chance to respond, I think this thread is out of line.

One man's opinion...

KC
On the contrary...I think it gets everyone to take a look at their own blades and could possibly save lives. Suppose this was a car forum and the discussion was about faulty brake shoes? Should it not be talked about until after the company spent time identifying the cause and then fixed the problem?

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

Well, I've not seen the post about somebody losing an eye to the flying carbide...and even if I had seen it, I'd have to wonder if it was really due to shoddy workmanship or something in the wood, blade having been dropped, etc. etc.

Customer service issues aside, remember when somebody got a faulty Jesada router bit for their comparision test? I'd be willing to bet that a little research could pinpoint 'the beginning of the end' of Jesada back to that magazine article, and the resulting Internet frenzy. Didn't matter that Carlos replaced the broken bit, or even that the test generated a design change...the damage was done. I can see the same thing happening to Forrest, even before they have a chance to respond.

KC

[Tom Hintz]

Gene,
I have to say that I am with you in that seeing that brazing, I would never put it on a saw.
I think your course of action is clear. Pack that blade up and send it to Forrest. I wouldn't assume others have complained about the same thing. While there may be others, the blade you have may show more detail on a problem Forrest is chasing. Certainly you deserve your money back, or a replacement blade, but I think it is very important to get that blade back to Forrest and let them see it for themselves.

Good luck!

[Tim Morton]

Well, I've not seen the post about somebody losing an eye to the flying carbide...and even if I had seen it, I'd have to wonder if it was really due to shoddy workmanship or something in the wood, blade having been dropped, etc. etc.

Customer service issues aside, remember when somebody got a faulty Jesada router bit for their comparision test? I'd be willing to bet that a little research could pinpoint 'the beginning of the end' of Jesada back to that magazine article, and the resulting Internet frenzy. Didn't matter that Carlos replaced the broken bit, or even that the test generated a design change...the damage was done. I can see the same thing happening to Forrest, even before they have a chance to respond.


1. I don't think you are saying that these persons concerns aren't valid until an actual eye is lost are you? And it doesn't look like the above blade was dropped in any way..in fact the owner said he took the plastic off and immediately took the picture. If Forrest changed its manufacturing process in the past year or so and is no longer producing a blade that is "top shelf" and may in fact be dangerous, then we have a right to find out all we can.

2 Don't you think in the case of the router bit that magazine had a responsibility to report on the damaged bit? What would have happened if they didn't report it and just got a new bit...and people started getting hurt?

My interest in this topic stems from the fact i was going to order a new blade for my table saw the day that Johns first thread came out...and it would have been a Forrest because I have always read they were the best.

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

And now I think you won't be buying the Forrest...which I think is what I was saying would happen.

I thought the magazine issue was mishandled simply because I've broken a couple bits myself over the years...it happens.

I'll say again and then I quit...let's give them a chance to respond before we shut 'em down.

KC

[Mike Cutler]

Gene. I agree with you that the joint on the Forrest blade is pretty ugly. However I don't accept this as empirical evidence that the blade will fail. There is alot of inherent "fat" built into silver soldered joints. While the textbook appearance is an indication of quality and craftsmanship, it does not alone guarantee a perfect joint. If I want to analyze the joint I want to know: How much heat was applied and for how long? were heat sinks or compounds applied? What is the brazing material and what is it's point of solidus? and how wide is the plastic region? Was the joint properly fluxed to allow for proper wetting action? What is the actual brazing material that Forrest uses? how was the blade cooled during brazing applications? While the other blades have a nice appearance how much actual wetting action has taken place? Are the joints machine brazed or are they robotically welded?
I'm not trying to be contrary here. Forrest obviously has a QC issue they should address, if they want to remain the "Gold Standard" of blades. It would be intersting to see pictures of the joints on some older Forrest products. I believe that Ken Salisbury indicated that he has multiple Forrest blades purchased over a long period of time, perhaps he could post some pics of the blades.
I know from your previous posts that you are a qualified QC weld inspector. So I'm not attempting to refute your analysis of the joint. I'm the guy on the other end of the inspection process at times. I've seen QC passed joints fail and I've seen butt ugly joints continue to perform.
I don't believe everyone should rush out and condemn their Forrest blades on visual inspection alone, there's alot more to it than that. All mechanical joints can fail, and the failure mechanism can be process based or human error. Unless we RT or Magnaflux each joint, a visual inspection is always subjective.
As I stated earlier Forrest has a QC problem that needs to be addressed. This doesn't mean that their blades are junk, or are inherently more dangerous or failure prone than any other manufacture's blades.
My .02, and more fwiw.

[Mark Singer]

As I compared each blade I noticed that even if they appear to look perfect ...they may not perform that well. The visual appearance does not seem to relate to blade performance. Since all my blades have all their teeth, I am not so sure that the appearance of the joint indicates there may be a problem. Still the appearance , quality of cut and price of the Dewalt makes it appear to be a very good overall value even if none of the blades have a problem with the teeth. This Forum is always reviewing the value and performance of products. It is probably good for Forrest to know we are concerned and will probably help John to obtain the best service from them. I like their blades and never looked at them close enough to see brazing appearance before this post. I think it is good to take note of it and see what Forrest does about replacement or repair. How they handle such problems will either gain or lose the loyalty of woodworkers and in such a forum it will be observed by many.

[Peter Engelmann]

This is disturbing...I just got a new 30T yesterday, haven't even opened the box yet.

[John Weber]

Wow, this is some thread. Despite Gene's experience, I would like to hear from Forrest before making any "I'm taking it off the saw" statements. While, I agree it doesn't look great, I have know idea if it meets QC or not. It seems to me he should return it to the retailer as a possible defective blade for a refund, or return it to Forrest for evaluation. I guess you would never know the outcome, unless that tooth (or one like it) hit a nail or other object that would cause failure. I have two Forrest blades, and have not looked at them very close, I only know they work beautifully. I've also had Forrest do some sharpening for me, and this is where they set themselves apart from the competition in my view. I've sent several Freud blades and they returned, much better then new, and near the Forrest in cut quality. I'm not sure what John's problem was, but I assume it will all wash out, either with a new blade or repair of his blade. I'm really surprised we wound jump on Forrest so quickly without them having a chance to respond.

John

[John Weber]

I just read this over on the Oak, for what it is worth:

Forrest tip weld problem

Posted By: Dave Morgan at 3D Saw blades <dave@forrestblade.com>
Date: 9/4/2004 - 7:28 a.m.

In Response To: I quit Forest a while back... (Jeff Cotner)

There are a few WWll's out there with tip weld problems from 8 o 9 months ago.
A old machine messed up and the person runing it didn't do his job of checking the blades close enough as they came off. All is fixed and has been for a long time. Any bad bad blade sold by 3D Saw Blades will be replace by 3D Saw Blades with a new blade at our cost (shipping both ways). Every post to the Oak and other forums about Forrest Saw Blades is sent to Jim Forrest Jr.
You pay good money you should get good stuff.


http://www.forrestblades.com

Messages In This Thread

[Jim Becker]

Just a reminder that 3D Saw Blades is a retailer, not the manufacturer. Forrest's contact information is located at http://forrest.woodmall.com

[John Miliunas]

John W., thanks for the info regarding Dave's post. I'll add to it by saying that I received a personal email from Dave, yet again, this morning, relaying basically the same info as John points out. And, FWIW, I went out this morning and took a quick peak at my 12" Forrest Chopmaster on the CMS. Without taking a magnifying glass to it, the blade looks to be in fine shape, with the tips nice and tight to the body of the blade. :)

Kirk, I'll agree with you that Forrest themselves have not "responded" directly to this, though they were good to their word in getting my blade picked up promptly, as promised. I will NOT agree that this thread (nor my original) is "out of line". :( I have been a great supporter of Forrest from the day I first mounted one on my saw and, right on up to the point where the tooth flew off, I still say that it's the best cutting blade I've ever owned. Still, it's as others have pointed out, posting about issues such as this *after* real physical damage has been done, does not serve the masses! It's better to be pro-active, *before* someone does indeed lose an eye or such! I ruined a couple pieces of exotic wood. I'm thankful that's all it was! Fact is, I have to believe that if Forrest is the World Class OEM that we believe them to be, such a thread can and should serve as a vehicle to keep their customers safe and protect them from litigation(s), which can prove to be much more expensive than replacing a few blades and making them aware of a manufacturing problem! :)

Most importantly, I think that this particular thread, more so than my original, is really a great reminder to both, us the users and to the OEM's that, QA and safety as it relates to that QA are paramount! I would personally like to thank Gene for this follow-up thread and for all the valuable information that has followed it! It's given me a bit more insight in what to look for in terms of safety and, when we're talking about a sharp object spinning several thousand RPM's, that may be good information to have! :) :cool:

[John Miliunas]

Just a reminder that 3D Saw Blades is a retailer, not the manufacturer. Forrest's contact information is located at http://forrest.woodmall.com

Jim, I'm aware of that, but I kind of relate that to our own Uncle Bob. *HE* doesn't build the black and green tools we buy, but we can *ALWAYS* count on him to take care of any issues regarding those same tools! :) I believe he'll do anything he can (including contacting Christian, their CEO) to resolve issues, because he's proud to be representing a quality line of tools. I think that 3D may be the single largest vendor of Forrest and Dave looks at that much in the same way. :) :cool:

[Gene Collison]

I would like to thank everyone for contributing to this thread. I have gone from hanging the blade on a nail to thoughts of getting the blade either exchanged or refunded. The blade is clearly not acceptable to me in its current condition but, this thread made me realize once again that Forrest has satisfied millions of woodworkers for years so there is much more to it than this -one- blade. But, it is also clear to me that there is lots of room for improvement in their QC department, my blade should have -never- left the factory IMHO!

Many thanks, and keep the comments coming, they will certainly help determine my course of action.

Gene

[Jerry Olexa]

To me, the key points are:

1. If you market a PREMIUM product w PREMIUM pricing you should ,in most cases, deliver to the consumer a PREMIUM, Superior, Satisfying product.
2. Occassional QC issues occurr in most companies and is expected!
3. With a PREMIUM product (Marketing 101) where people have spent EXTRA money, you should fully guarantee, warranty and stand behind your product and always make it GOOD! (this is your REPUTATION!)
4. With issues of SAFETY, there is no question that you should move swiftly, acknowledge your error, remove all defective stock from the marketplace and quickly try to make your consumers r comfortable w your handling of the issue.

I personally now have major concerns and reservations about my Forest WW2 blade sitting idly in my workshop. That was, in hindsight, a poor $100 investment! They might repair it. I'm told, but only if I pay all expenses (mailing and other costs) We live and learn w certain companies! A repeat purchase doesn't seem to be on the horizon for me! Jerry

[Greg Mann]

To me, the key points are:

1. If you market a PREMIUM product w PREMIUM pricing you should ,in most cases, deliver to the consumer a PREMIUM, Superior, Satisfying product.
2. Occassional QC issues occurr in most companies and is expected!
3. With a PREMIUM product (Marketing 101) where people have spent EXTRA money, you should fully guarantee, warranty and stand behind your product and always make it GOOD! (this is your REPUTATION!)
4. With issues of SAFETY, there is no question that you should move swiftly, acknowledge your error, remove all defective stock from the marketplace and quickly try to make your consumers r comfortable w your handling of the issue.

I personally now have major concerns and reservations about my Forest WW2 blade sitting idly in my workshop. That was, in hindsight, a poor $100 investment! They might repair it. I'm told, but only if I pay all expenses (mailing and other costs) We live and learn w certain companies! A repeat purchase doesn't seem to be on the horizon for me! Jerry
Jerry,

They can't fix/replace what they don't know about. As users of potentially dangerous equipment, we bear some responsibility to check out our tools just like out techniques. If we have a suspect product it is important to give the manufacturer a chance to repair or replace it. As far as QC? "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Forrest has indeed provided a premium product for many years. That should count for something before we pile on without giving them a chance to do the right thing. They will do whatever it takes to maintain their position in the market place. As much as their blades cost, we spend far more for other things that don't last as long or perform as reliably, such as th PC i'm posting with. True it won't pysically harm me if it crashes, although I might like to kill it sometimes; you get my drift. Let's let this play out before giving up on these folks.

Greg

[John Miliunas]

Greg, I think you've stated it in a most simple and easy way to understand the whole situation. In my case, I've elected to give them a chance to redeem themselves and correct a non-acceptable situation. They're not the first OEM or vendor I've had doubts about, but the ones who have come through and corrected the situation remain on my "short list" for future purchases. Pretty simple, really. :)

Jerry, I would, by all means, contact the vendor from whom I purchased the blade from and see what course of action the may decide to offer. Yeah, I know you tried to get some satisfaction before, but try again! Every vendor or OEM has their share of customers who can't be pleased, no matter what. Unfortunately, there are far too many of these customers who are simply trying to take advantage and sometimes, the OEM gets a little thick-skinned in their response. If the vendor doesn't take care of you, go directly to Forrest with it, but request that they arrange for UPS pickup. If, once they receive the blade, they determine that it was indeed a manufacturing process error, they can do something about it. If they feel that it's user error, you can then elect to have it fixed at whatever price they set or just let them keep it. It's of no use to you as it sits right now, anyway. JMHO.... :cool:

[Joseph N. Myers]

Forrest tip weld problem

Posted By: Dave Morgan at 3D Saw blades <DAVE@FORRESTBLADE.COM>
Date: 9/4/2004 - 7:28 a.m.

In Response To: I quit Forest a while back... (Jeff Cotner)

There are a few WWll's out there with tip weld problems from 8 o 9 months ago.
A old machine messed up and the person runing it didn't do his job of checking the blades close enough as they came off. All is fixed and has been for a long time. Any bad bad blade sold by 3D Saw Blades will be replace by 3D Saw Blades with a new blade at our cost (shipping both ways). Every post to the Oak and other forums about Forrest Saw Blades is sent to Jim Forrest Jr.
You pay good money you should get good stuff.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

So at least 3D and Forrest knew about the problem 8-9 months ago. I would think that they would know, in general, who they shipped the bad blades to and have those checked out. And/or assuming there is no easy way to inspect all the saw blades, they could include a note with those blades being sold about the potential problem.

Looking at the picture of the blade, the tooth is pushed forward and if I'm not mistaken, in from the other teeth and hence, would not be one of the teeth cutting the wood (does that make sense?). So the concern here is the tooth possible coming off and hurting someone (a real concern). I thought that I read someplace that the blade or one like it screwed up some wood. Or did I just get confused with another thread.

I check all my blade including my 10 year forrest (not used that much) and they are all in good shape. I wish the same luck with other SCM members.

Regards, Joe

[thomas prevost]

I was absolutely dismayed at Dave's reply about the bad blades. Why weren't these pulled from the shelves and notices sent out to purchasers who could be contacted? Why when they knew there was a problem, did they still give customers a hassle vs politley taking them back, inspecting and replacing? The business decision was to risk a customer injury vs saving a few bucks. It does not speak well for them. If the they have future manufacturing problems, it will never surface. This is a risk I am unwilling to take.

We must turst the ingerity of manufacturers. I buy a car and trust the manufacturer that they have produced a safe car for me. I do not disassemble a furnace, clothes washer, etc to be sure it was manufactured properly. Why should I have to buy a microscope and xray machine to be sure my saw blades are manufactured properly.

[Gene Collison]

Jerry, I would, by all means, contact the vendor from whom I purchased the blade from and see what course of action the may decide to offer. Yeah, I know you tried to get some satisfaction before, but try again! Every vendor or OEM has their share of customers who can't be pleased, no matter what.
----------------------
John or anyone else for that matter,

Does anyone know of a contact at Forrest that I can discuss my problem with, who is receptive and not overly opinionated? I want to avoid a hissing contest, it's not worth elevating my bloodpressure over a sawblade. A name would be appreciated.

Gene

[Steve Evans]

Why when they knew there was a problem, did they still give customers a hassle vs politley taking them back, inspecting and replacing?

Thomas

That's the thought that's been in my mind for this whole discussion. I thought to myself that if that had been Lee Valley as an example, and I had called up with a concern about a defective blade, they would have couriered one out the next day probably, heck they probably would have gone through there database and tried to track down these defective blades. I can't for the life of me figure out what was going through the head(s) of their customer service department. You've got a defective product out there, do whatever you have to do to get it back. Especially for a product that's priced at the premium price point. This whole dilemna concerns me, and my WWII isn't even one of the ones affected.

Steve Evans

[Kevin Gerstenecker]

I checked my Forrest Blade currently on my TS this morining, and the blade cutout where the Carbide is seated is notched at a 90 degree angle, just like the photo in a previous thread. Although there isn't as much braze filler material as shown in the other photos in this thread, the area where the Carbide seats is identical. Some of my other blades, Freud and Dewalt, have the cutout in the blade where the carbide seats cut to the same profile as the Carbide tips. Other than that, all the teeth are still present, and she cuts like a dream. In checking all the teeth under a magnifying glass, there is no weld porosity present, and the weld seam on all cutters is pretty uniform. My other Forrest is as my Dads, he is using it for a project, and he wanted to see how a Forrest cuts. (He can't believe the cut quality.) I have nothing that looks like it is ready to fail, that I can see. Just thought I would register what my Forrest WWII looks like.

[Gene Collison]

I checked my Forrest Blade currently on my TS this morining, and the blade cutout where the Carbide is seated is notched at a 90 degree angle, just like the photo in a previous thread. Although there isn't as much braze filler material as shown in the other photos in this thread, the area where the Carbide seats is identical. Some of my other blades, Freud and Dewalt, have the cutout in the blade where the carbide seats cut to the same profile as the Carbide tips. Other than that, all the teeth are still present, and she cuts like a dream. In checking all the teeth under a magnifying glass, there is no weld porosity present, and the weld seam on all cutters is pretty uniform. My other Forrest is as my Dads, he is using it for a project, and he wanted to see how a Forrest cuts. (He can't believe the cut quality.) I have nothing that looks like it is ready to fail, that I can see. Just thought I would register what my Forrest WWII looks like.
-----------------
Kevin,

Are your teeth brazed at an angle like my picture or are they brazed to the back side of the cutout providing more or less full contact and support? No porosity, interesting! One thing I failed to mention about my blade in my original post is that all teeth are attached in pretty much the same manner with porosity on most teeth. It is not just one tooth that I am complaining about, it's all of them!! Another thing I noticed about my other Forrest that isn't too impressive is that the arbor hole is cut oversize as compared to other blades. I prefer that the arbor hole is more or less a perfect fit, most of my other blades 'FIT' as compared to being sloppy. The Dewalt being the tightest.

Gene

[Jim Becker]

Another thing I noticed about my other Forrest that isn't too impressive is that the arbor hole is cut oversize as compared to other blades. I prefer that the arbor hole is more or less a perfect fit, most of my other blades 'FIT' as compared to being sloppy.All of my Forrest blades are very snug on the arbor; I have to be patient to install or remove them as they need to go on exactly straight to slide. This includes the DadoKing. No problems on any of the brazing on my teeth, either.

[Steve King]

After reading the thread here and on the “Oak” I thought I would look at my WWII. I just got my blade back from Forrest after being sharpened and it looked good. I found one tooth that was a hair off, but not as bad as your picture.
I hope Terry Hatfield doesn’t mind that I attached a pic of his WWII that is on his web site. I think his blade is in worse shape than yours. I have emailed him about this thread and that I attached the pic of his WWII.
Steve

[Kevin Gerstenecker]

Gene, the teeth on my WWII have a nice, consistant, snug fit between the back of the blade cutout and the cutter. My blade is NOTHING like that one you have. If it were, it would be on the way to Forrest first thing Tuesday morning. If it were that bad, I am sure they would want to see it.......and I cannot imagine they would not make a poorly constucted blade like that good. One thing I don't understand, and perhaps they have an explanation or reason for it, is that the notch profile in the blade steel is not the same as the cutter profile? It seems to me that if the notch cut into the blade was the same, or nearly the same as the cutter shape, it would be much easier to get a good, consistant bond between the 2? Maybe I am off base here, as brazing is gap filling to a certain degree, but the way other manufacturers are doing their blades seems to be a much better process. Maybe not, but they sure LOOK like a better designed and constucted blade.

[John Shuk]

I took the liberty of forwarding this thread to Forrest via E-Mail. Lets all hope that they respond after the holiday. I beleive that they will. I have always been Wowed at the shows by the performance of their blades and have friends who swear by them. It has always been my intention to buy from them when the need arises. I hope they respond well to this so I can do that. Maybe a "Cooling Off Period" is needed here until Forrest has had time to reply?
John

[Waymon Campbell]

I checked all three WWIIs that I have (the two for the shop and the one I bought for the Central States BBQ). My oldest blade I purchased approx. 20 months ago. I have been using it ever since. I gave it a thorough cleaning today and inspected it. No brazing porosity at all and full contact at all points. My second blade I purchased about 6 months ago for a backup when the first needed sharpening. It also looks good. The door prize blade just arrived at my door last week and it also looks ok.

I hope everyone else who has WWIIs will do the same inspection and if they see something that concerns them, please stop using the blade and send it back to Forrest for repair / replacement.

[John Miliunas]

John or anyone else for that matter,

Does anyone know of a contact at Forrest that I can discuss my problem with, who is receptive and not overly opinionated? I want to avoid a hissing contest, it's not worth elevating my bloodpressure over a sawblade. A name would be appreciated.

Gene

Gene, I took the lead, which Dominic was kind enough to post in an earlier thread. The fellow I ended up talking to was, "Charlie". Yeah, he was a bit hesitant, at first, but definitely willing to work with me. And I didn't have nearly a detailed explanation as you can give him! :) I just told him I didn't think the blade was manufactured to the quality I was expecting and thought I paid for. Here's the info:

Forrest Manufacturing Inc.
457 River Road
Clifton, NJ 07014

Tel: (973) 473-5236
______________________
Let us know if you find anything out.... :) :cool:

[Dave Morgan]

Jerry, I would, by all means, contact the vendor from whom I purchased the blade from and see what course of action the may decide to offer. Yeah, I know you tried to get some satisfaction before, but try again! Every vendor or OEM has their share of customers who can't be pleased, no matter what.
----------------------
John or anyone else for that matter,

Does anyone know of a contact at Forrest that I can discuss my problem with, who is receptive and not overly opinionated? I want to avoid a hissing contest, it's not worth elevating my bloodpressure over a sawblade. A name would be appreciated.

Gene
Gene
Call me at 866.398.9336 or email me at dave@forrestblades.com.
If your are not happy with your blade I'll replace it or refund your money.
Either way I'll UPS call tag the bad blade.
Thanks
Dave Morgan
3D Saw Blades Internet Sales

[John Miliunas]

Dave, rather peculiar circumstances to your first post, but what the heck; WELCOME aboard, anyway! :D You may want to "look around" a bit, because tool or supply complaint threads are NOT the mainstay of this forum! :) We really, REALLY enjoy our woodworking and love to share info, ideas, projects and yes, our problems, too! Stick around...It's a great place to hang out! ;) Come often, stay long and, if inspired to do so, we LOVE pics over here! :cool:

[Dave Morgan]

Dave, rather peculiar circumstances to your first post, but what the heck; WELCOME aboard, anyway! :D You may want to "look around" a bit, because tool or supply complaint threads are NOT the mainstay of this forum! :) We really, REALLY enjoy our woodworking and love to share info, ideas, projects and yes, our problems, too! Stick around...It's a great place to hang out! ;) Come often, stay long and, if inspired to do so, we LOVE pics over here! :cool:
Thanks John
I'll visit but not add much as I don't what anyone to think I'm hawking our product.
We do care about our customers and this will be a good place to keep a ear out for
problems.

[thomas prevost]

Dave,
glad to see your onboard!!:) Not only for this problem and the poor historical responses from Forrest.

But, look to the future. I am sure you hear a lot of neat ideas from your customers. Why not share them on occassion?:) Let us all benefit from their creativity. It dosn't have to be hawking and I am sure others will take it with good intentions. SMC has members from other organizations that routinely post and no one accuses them of hawking when they send in a good idea or photo of a project.

[scott spencer]

Gene - Sorry to see all this, but thanks for sharing it. Unfortunately it's about the third Forrest complaint I've read about in the past few weeks. They usually get nothing but raves. I'd expect better from a $30 blade, let alone this one. I'd let Forrest know about the problem. You might try letting them know about this thread....alot of people are curious how they deal with this, and they definitely need to know. I'm sure they'll do the right thing. You paid for a top dollar for a top quality blade and deserve a top quality blade. They should replace it. At the very least, you could sell a replacement in good faith and recoup some of your outlay, then make another choice that you're more comfortable with. You might even find a dealer willing to swap you for something.

Good luck.

[Mike Cutler]

Dave. Welcome to Sawmill Creek and thank you for responding to this issue. It speaks volumes of integrity to me that you responded to this issue when you didn't have to, and could have kept quiet and ducked the issue altogether, and that you provided members here with your e-mail address and ph#. I wouldn't really worry about being percieved as " hawking" your product here. There are a few individuals on the board that run their own woodworking related businesses, and there have been no issues that I know of yet. It's nice to ask a question about a product or process, and get an articulate well founded response from someone that has a lot of insight and knowledge of the product or products avaiable.
Well it appears as if Gene and John have an "inside source" to work out a resolution. Hopefully everything works out well for all parties involved.

[Mac McAtee]

I work for a company that had it's main workshops in Norway. We make very large steam fired drying machinery. A typical machine weighs around 60 tons. About 12 years ago we had three machines delivered to customers in the US. Suddenly we started having a particular weld fail in all three machines. One machine has 10,000 different welds in it.

A study was done that took about a year to complete. The finding was.....drum roll please.....

The workshop is in the mouth of a Fjord that is right on the North Sea. One of the welding stations was on the side of the workshop facing the North Sea. There was a door that opened right outside, within 3 meters of this particular welding station. Anytime a worker in the shop wanted to smoke, he or she went out this particular door. Turns out when the door opens the wind off the North Sea was blowing the gas envelope around the TIG or MIG, I forget which, and exposing the in progress weld to oxygen. That made that particular weld porous. That one little detail cost my company around US$1.5 million before it was found and fixed.

But it was found and fixed. I think Forrest deserves the opportunity to find and fix their problem and, perhaps, your sawblade would be the one that would direct them to the solution. Give them a shot at it.

[Larry Ogborn]

I purchased a Forrest WWII about a month ago and
haven't used it yet. It looks a lot like the picture
posted at the top of this thread and I am now
concerned about using it. If it is bad(??) I will
return it but don't want to do so if the blade is
safe to use. My blade has a number on it:
397469. If they had a problem with a machine
in their manufacturing process, couldn't these
blades be identified by number? As far as I am
concerned these blade may be perfectly safe and
would not have even questioned it if not for this
thread. I look forward to a responce from Forrest
as to their opinion on these blades.

Larry

[Dave Morgan]

Dave. Welcome to Sawmill Creek and thank you for responding to this issue. It speaks volumes of integrity to me that you responded to this issue when you didn't have to, and could have kept quiet and ducked the issue altogether, and that you provided members here with your e-mail address and ph#. I wouldn't really worry about being percieved as " hawking" your product here. There are a few individuals on the board that run their own woodworking related businesses, and there have been no issues that I know of yet. It's nice to ask a question about a product or process, and get an articulate well founded response from someone that has a lot of insight and knowledge of the product or products avaiable.
Well it appears as if Gene and John have an "inside source" to work out a resolution. Hopefully everything works out well for all parties involved.
Mike
Thanks for the Welcome.
I will jump in from tme to time if I can be of help.
We sell more Forrest Saw Blades than anyone else and have very few problems.
This bad tip weld is not a wide spread problem or I would no about it.
I am with all of you guys, if it the blade is bad it should be replaced at no cost what so ever to the customer and that is our policy here at 3D Saw Blades.

[Dave Morgan]

I purchased a Forrest WWII about a month ago and
haven't used it yet. It looks a lot like the picture
posted at the top of this thread and I am now
concerned about using it. If it is bad(??) I will
return it but don't want to do so if the blade is
safe to use. My blade has a number on it:
397469. If they had a problem with a machine
in their manufacturing process, couldn't these
blades be identified by number? As far as I am
concerned these blade may be perfectly safe and
would not have even questioned it if not for this
thread. I look forward to a responce from Forrest
as to their opinion on these blades.

Larry
Larry
I honestly don't know how to resond.
A lot of what Forrest does is by hand and not by machine.
What you see on your blade is not pretty like you get from a machine but
what you see from hand work. Please visit with Forrest Mfg at 800.733.7111
on Tuesday ask to speak to Tony. I will be giving them a heads up on this thread
as early a I can Tuesday.
Dave at 3D Saw Blades

[Gene Collison]

Gene
Call me at 866.398.9336 or email me at dave@forrestblades.com.
If your are not happy with your blade I'll replace it or refund your money.
Either way I'll UPS call tag the bad blade.
Thanks
Dave Morgan
3D Saw Blades Internet Sales

Dave,

Welcome to SMC, it's great to have you here! I will call you first thing next business day. As far as I am concerned, I am thinking my issue is closed and in a most positive manner. Also, thanks to everyone who provided information about their blades and the subject in general, this certainly helped to reinforce my thinking.

Gene

[Tim Morton]

Larry
I honestly don't know how to resond.
A lot of what Forrest does is by hand and not by machine.
What you see on your blade is not pretty like you get from a machine but
what you see from hand work. Please visit with Forrest Mfg at 800.733.7111
on Tuesday ask to speak to Tony. I will be giving them a heads up on this thread
as early a I can Tuesday.
Dave at 3D Saw Blades

It sounds to me like Dave is saying that in his opinion the blades pictured here are normal looking blades to him. I can say that from the world of High End stereo electronics that the highest end stereo cables are all hand soldered and the work is sometimes not as picture perfect as is done on the machines at companies like Monster Cable. I guesswe wait to get an official statement from Forrest on Tuesday?

[Ken Salisbury]

Thanks John
I'll visit but not add much as I don't what anyone to think I'm hawking our product.
We do care about our customers and this will be a good place to keep a ear out for
problems.
Dave,

Glad to see ya here helping with the issue. I haven't seen you for a couple years. I believe the last time was in Atlanta. You already know how I feel about Forrest blades :) .

[Gene Collison]

Gene, the teeth on my WWII have a nice, consistant, snug fit between the back of the blade cutout and the cutter. My blade is NOTHING like that one you have. If it were, it would be on the way to Forrest first thing Tuesday morning. If it were that bad, I am sure they would want to see it.......and I cannot imagine they would not make a poorly constucted blade like that good. One thing I don't understand, and perhaps they have an explanation or reason for it, is that the notch profile in the blade steel is not the same as the cutter profile? It seems to me that if the notch cut into the blade was the same, or nearly the same as the cutter shape, it would be much easier to get a good, consistant bond between the 2? Maybe I am off base here, as brazing is gap filling to a certain degree, but the way other manufacturers are doing their blades seems to be a much better process. Maybe not, but they sure LOOK like a better designed and constucted blade.

Kevin,

Thanks for the taking a close look at your Forrest blade. Dave Morgan from Forrest has entered the thread and they are going to resolve the issue for me. It looks like the case is closed, thanks again for your and everyones input.

Gene

[Dave Morgan]

Dave,

Glad to see ya here helping with the issue. I haven't seen you for a couple years. I believe the last time was in Atlanta. You already know how I feel about Forrest blades :) .
Hi Ken
I was hoping to see you in Atlanta at the IWF show a couple of weeks ago.
How ya been?

[Larry Ogborn]

This is the copy of an email I sent to Dave.
I think this is a closed issue with me. I am
looking forward to using this blade after wanting
one for a long time.:)


Dave

Thanks for your response. I suspected that
was the case but just wanted to be sure. I
now feel that I can use this blade with confidence
and don't feel a phone call is necessary.

Larry

[Jim Becker]

Dave Morgan from Forrest has entered the thread and they are going to resolve the issue for me.
Just to note that Dave is with 3D Saw Blades in Tenn. and is a reseller of Forrest. However, he's certainly in the position to help out and does a bang-up job with marketing these fine blades to folks, especially at the shows where the demonstrations are useful in evaluating the blades.

[Dave Morgan]

Just to note that Dave is with 3D Saw Blades in Tenn. and is a reseller of Forrest. However, he's certainly in the position to help out and does a bang-up job with marketing these fine blades to folks, especially at the shows where the demonstrations are useful in evaluating the blades.
Jim

We will help when and were we can here at 3D Saw Blades.

A few of the many things we have learned:

(1) It takes less time and money to help a customer that to fight with them.

(2) Even when a customer is wrong they are still right.

(3) It is a lot easer to loose a customer than to get a new one.

(4) When you are wrong admit it and fix it if you can.

Thanks

Dave at 3D Saw Blades

[Earl Reid]

I just checked my forrest blades very close, 6 of them, every tooth looks ok. I thought there was only 5 of them. I bought all of them at the woodworking shows over the years. I have always highly recommended them.
Earl

[Ken Salisbury]

Hi Ken
I was hoping to see you in Atlanta at the IWF show a couple of weeks ago.
How ya been?
I have been good Dave ! Couldn't make it to Atlanta due to my Freedom Pen activities/schedule. Hope to run into you some where soon.

[Ken Salisbury]

It would be intersting to see pictures of the joints on some older Forrest products. I believe that Ken Salisbury indicated that he has multiple Forrest blades purchased over a long period of time, perhaps he could post some pics of the blades.
I examined 4 of my Forrest Blades (WWII, WWI and 2 Chopmaters very very carefully. I didn't take any photos since I found no evidence of defects in any of the blades. These blades range in age from 1 to 12 years old. Alll have had extensive usage. There is no way I would ever use anything else other than the 40 tooth Tenyru blade (only blade I have found that comes even close to a Forrest for quality of cut) I use on my cabinet saw when I need to send the Forrest to be sharpened.

I will say it again:


"Nothing runs like a Deere and nothing cuts like a Forrest"




<p>If you have Forrest blades you are afraid to use please ship them to me and I will be more than glad to pay for the shipping. I will then immediately send to Forrest for sharpening, if they need it. Otherwise I will put them to use immediately, without reservation. :)

[sascha gast]

just send it to forrest and see what they say. i have 4 blades, all in great shape. never had a problem. it's only fair to let them know, but you need to send the blade to them, or even the pictures. see what they say and if their service is bad, then do a post. they have such a great reputation, they deserve that chance to fix it.
i'll stick with my ww2 simply because they are awesome.

sascha