Lie Nielsen Panel Saw - And Thoughts

[Tom Godley]

After returning to the hobby of woodworking a few years ago I have discovered that I enjoy working with hand tools. In my quest to equip myself with some of the essential hand tools - I have started to read this section of SMC, the Christopher Schwarz bog, and occasionally a few others.

I do not have a good functioning panel saw. I own a few old panel saws - They do not work well. I have no idea if any of them can be made into good panel saws. The fact is, even if I own a potentially great panel saw my non existent sharpening skills would more than likely destroy it.

So when I noticed on CS's blog a review of the new LN panel saws I took notice. I read his rather positive review and also began to read the comment section ...... why do so many threads become negative? Many threads on SMC including the recent sharpening thread and almost any that have Sawstop in them get strange.

I just do not understand it - why is it that one persons choice in a tool becomes so personal to others?

Sorry about the rant ! Anybody purchase one of the LN saws :)

[David Keller NC]

"I just do not understand it - why is it that one persons choice in a tool becomes so personal to others?"

Many of these arguments are not really about the particular tool - they're about dueling philosophies of life. There are those that see frugality as a virtue, and those that see that attitude as quaint. Given that these are attitudes that are deeply ingrained into personalities, it does not surprise me that arguments over this can get quite heated.

Anyway - Back to the subject of your post. I do not (yet) have one of the L-N panel saws, because I was very lucky to find a couple of 20" Disstons made prior to 1917 (i.e., good totes). But these are very expensive because they're rare - so the L-N panel saws are a bit of a bargain in that respect.

However, the reason I wanted to respond is that there several small firms that will do a bit mor than just "sharpen" a handsaw - they will analyze the saw for flaws, like bend or a kink, how much set is there and whether it's appropriate for the use you intend it for, adjust the fleam and rake of the tooth line, etc... Mike Wenzloff will do this, though I'll note that Mike stays very, very busy, so a quick turnaround may not be possible. He's a member of SMC, so you could ping him by PM to ask what that turnaround time would be.

Another fellow that gets good press is the guy that runs Techno Primitives:

http://www.technoprimitives.com/

There are probably several others that SMC members will know of and speak highly of their work, hopefully they'll have some contact info to post in this thread.

Getting a service like this done is not bank account emptying, but it isn't cheap either, so I would only consider it for a saw made during the later half of the 19th century to the first 20 years or so of the 20th. These tend to have good steel so that they will take and hold and edge and set well, but labor was still cheap and so they have superbly sculpted (and comfortable) handles.

[Jon van der Linden]

The non working saws you have are an excellent place to learn and develop sharpening skills. You'll have to sharpen no matter what saw you buy, the time to start is with the clunkers, they might become more than you expect.

There are many informative threads here and on the web on sharpening techniques. Read up, get some files and start. You're not risking much by sharpening saws that don't work unless they're collectible... you don't have an old rusty backsaw labelled "Kenyon" by chance?

I don't have the LN panel saw, but if that's the kind of thing you need and you're looking to buy new, I'd also have a look at Wenzloff and the Andrew Lunn saws... there are others as well.

As far as the rant thing goes, people invest a lot of their self esteem and pride in having learned something as simple as getting an edge sharp enough to do basic work. There are always going to be people that are doing better with less and have for years... it's a bit of a downer to find that you've reinvented the square wheel, and some people find that hard to take. Add to that the professionals arguing over things like pins and tails, not even getting into the people that think the last great piece of furniture was made in the 18th c. and you have a recipe for disaster.

Good luck with your saws, you'll learn a lot from sharpening them yourself.

[Phillip Pattee]

I will second the recommendation for Techoprimitives. I have not used the service, but if I needed to recue a saw, that is where I would send it. The Schwartz sent a back saw there to be refurbished and created a blog about it, so you can read his review.

Vintage Saws has a wealth of information about saw sharpening. http://www.vintagesaws.com/index.htm Moreover, the site sells kits consisting of the necessary files and a clunker saw on which to practice.

Please tell us about the panel saws you have, they may not be ones you want to experiment with in order to learn sharpening. Someone here will definitely know about their quality and collectibility.

You can always get any number of "warrantied superior" saws on ebay with broken handles, etc. that are suitable for practice sharpening. I've scored some nice panel saws from auctions too. Some of the sellers on ebay are auctioning saws that are completely refurbished, sharp and ready to go--so that is also an option.

I don't know about the LN saw, but you really can't go wrong purchasing from them, can you?

[Michael Faurot]

I do not have a good functioning panel saw. I own a few old panel saws - They do not work well. I have no idea if any of them can be made into good panel saws. The fact is, even if I own a potentially great panel saw my non existent sharpening skills would more than likely destroy it.


Saw sharpening isn't hard, but it is tedious. It's unlikely you'd destroy a saw by just attempting to sharpen it. Even if you don't get it 100% right, it'll still probably work better afterward, than it did before.

Where you can get into trouble though is if the saw has bends or kinks in it. I've tried several times, on some flea market junkers, to learn how to straighten a saw--and just made each of them worse.

So as long as your saw doesn't need to be straightened, you should be fine just sharpening it.

[Robert Rozaieski]

If your goal is only a well tuned saw and you don't want to learn to do it yourself, there are plenty of places you could send the old ones to have them tuned to perfection like Technoprimatives, Daryl Weir, and others. All will send you back a very well sharpened and tuned saw that will perform every bit as good as any new saw on the market.

If you want the LN saw, I say go for it. It will perform as well as any and look pretty to boot. As for the price, it's worth it. I've made a few saws myself and the labor aint cheap and the process aint fast. I certainly couldn't make saws for what they are charging and make a comfortable living at it.

Ultimately it's not a choice of tool performance. With saws, there's no super duper space aged machining going on like you might find with planes. It's a piece of steel and a handle. How it's sharpened and set is all that will determine it's performance. Therefore, it comes down to aesthetics. What is your preference? Both will cut wood the same.

The one thing I will add however is that at some point, either saw, the old one tuned by someone else, or the LN, will get dull and need re-sharpening. So no matter which path you choose, at some point you will have to either learn to sharpen saws or send them out again.

[Joe Close]

I do not have a LN panel saw, but do have 3 of his back saws. To me, they are a quality saw. I would suspect the same from his panel saws. I have several of his planes as well. I do have a Wenzloff panel saw, Kenyon, 26" x-cut. I like it as well. It's a joy to cut with. I also have Disston from a borg store, maybe 20 years old. It's not so fun to cut with. My Disston makes me appreciate a quality saw.

I've noticed the same thing about the negitive turnabouts on blogs and boards discussing tools. It's too bad a simple discussion degrades so far sometimes.

[Joe McMahon]

I will second the recommendation for Techoprimitives. I have not used the service, but if I needed to recue a saw, that is where I would send it. The Schwartz sent a back saw there to be refurbished and created a blog about it, so you can read his review.

Vintage Saws has a wealth of information about saw sharpening. http://www.vintagesaws.com/index.htm Moreover, the site sells kits consisting of the necessary files and a clunker saw on which to practice.

Please tell us about the panel saws you have, they may not be ones you want to experiment with in order to learn sharpening. Someone here will definitely know about their quality and collectibility.

You can always get any number of "warrantied superior" saws on ebay with broken handles, etc. that are suitable for practice sharpening. I've scored some nice panel saws from auctions too. Some of the sellers on ebay are auctioning saws that are completely refurbished, sharp and ready to go--so that is also an option.

I don't know about the LN saw, but you really can't go wrong purchasing from them, can you?


I can't get on the vintagesaws.com web site. I keep getting a " Forbidden

You don't have permission to access / on this server." note. I tried with Firefox and again with IE. The site just will not come up. Anyone else have that problem?

[David Keller NC]

I can't get on the vintagesaws.com web site. I keep getting a " Forbidden

You don't have permission to access / on this server." note. I tried with Firefox and again with IE. The site just will not come up. Anyone else have that problem?

Yep - Same here with IE 7. The error message says:
The website declined to show this webpage

If anyone's got contact info for Pete Tarran, you might want to send him a note - I'm betting he might not be aware of the problem.

[Ray Gardiner]

Hmmm........ appears his mail server might be down as well..:confused:

[Robert Rozaieski]

Interesting. I got on just fine just now.

http://www.vintagesaws.com/index.htm

[george wilson]

You guys would be surprised by how many craftsmen in Williamsburg cannot sharpen a saw. I kept finding out that so many of my saws were getting fouled up,I had to get the director of historic trades to issue a rule that all saws had to be returned to the toolmaker's shop to be sharpened,except for the cabinet makers,where an old journeyman of mine kept their saws in good order.

We resharpened them by hand,having had bad luck at sending them out to be resharpened. It is very essential to learn how to sharpen saws,or your new LN,or any other saw will soon not work well at all. And you may not realize that your sharpener is an idiot. We had begun to get saws back without being resharpened,or with the tips of the teeth jointed flat,but not resharpened,etc.. That's what you get when your museum gets into deals,and establishes a vendor list you must use.

There are older books out there that show how saw teeth should be angled,and how to sharpen. I was dismayed at an article in fine Woodworking some time ago by some guy,who sharpens his saws,complete with pictures,so that the teeth are perfect,vertical pyramids. Such teeth cut the same in both directions,and do not cut well in either direction. I can't understand how that article was allowed in their magazine. Actually,maybe I can: the editors are not woodworkers,maybe?

There are several magazines out there,like "The Home Shop Machinist",who rely on free articles by a group of duffs who like to see their names in print,who turn in nice pictures of bogus ways to do things. I contacted the editor about these. He replied that he "had not labored in the vineyard." That is so bad for those who are trying to learn.

This is why I recommend reprints of early 20th.C. books on woodworking if you want real information.

[Jim Barrett]

I was recently at a class with Rob Cosman in Calgary and the topic of how often should I sharpen my saw was asked. Rob stated that for most hobbyist it probably would not be necessary to sharpen your saw for several years. So my thought is if your saw only needs to be sharpened every couple of years or so how proficient/good could you be with that infrequent amount of sharpenings?

Jim

[Tom Godley]

George - I actually wanted to see if I could find an old book. Any suggestions?

One of he first project I want to make are a set of the 19th century style sawhorse I noticed in Fine Woodworking attributed to you at Williamsburg.

[David Keller NC]

Tom - Not an old text, but this DVD is pretty good. Tom's a very good saw sharpener - I've several saws that he corrected, sharpened and set, and they work wonderfully:

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=AQ-1019V.XX&Category_Code=&Search=saw%20sharpening

A book that I have and use that explains things fairly simply is "Keeping the Cutting Edge" by Dynamite Payson. Lie Nielsen sells it:

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1420

And - don't forget to read through Bob Smalser's tutorials on re-habbing old saws (you can find the threads in the Neander FAQ)

[bridger berdel]

why do so many threads become negative?
I just do not understand it - why is it that one persons choice in a tool becomes so personal to others?
:)


it's because MY tools are from GOD and everyobody else is a poopyhead!

[george wilson]

Tim,I made those sawhorses in 1970. The way I designed them is important,and I am not certain the guy who made drawings got them exactly right. The legs he drew look a little "stretched" to me.

Anyway,I made the horses the same height as my bench when they are stood on end. The legs are angled so that the sawhorses stand perfectly vertical when they are stood on end, By doing these things,I was able to use the horses to hold up the end of a long plank(one end of the plank being on the bench),so I could saw it off,or do whatever. It made a nice handy little system. The mortices that go through the sawhorse tops are at angles to receive the legs. The mortices flair just a bit,and double wedges driven down from the top of the horses make the legs very secure,plus,the mortices fit snugly. They've stood all kinds of use since 1970,but are not copies of antiques. Just my own design to fit into the period shop.

[Peter Evans]

Go to http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS/saws/saws-index.asp where there are a number of old texts.

Also check out http://www.roseantiquetools.com/id57.html for Disston manuals.

And don't forget http://toolemera.com/, where you can browse the documents available.

Also, on Ray Gardner's site there is a copy of an article I wrote on saw references a couple of years ago, and Ray is keeping up to date. http://www.backsaw.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=56&Itemid=94
There is a lot of good info on this site, browse around.

Cheers
Peter

[Richard Niemiec]

I was recently at a class with Rob Cosman in Calgary and the topic of how often should I sharpen my saw was asked. Rob stated that for most hobbyist it probably would not be necessary to sharpen your saw for several years. So my thought is if your saw only needs to be sharpened every couple of years or so how proficient/good could you be with that infrequent amount of sharpenings?

Jim

Flea market saws have a way of accumulating over the years, at least in my shop, to the point where I had to build a till. Never paid more than $10, and mostly $5, the higher price for really nice handles. Disston 7s, D8s, 23s, 112s not to mention Atkins and Sandviks, and some early Craftsman; some crosscut, others rip, and then the backsaws......

After some poor results sending them out to a local guy, I decided I had to learn to do it myself. I started with the more common saws of more recent (circa 1950) vintage, to get proficient before I get into the late 19th and very early 20th century saws which do have some value. I've sharpened three so far, the third being the best result, and by the time I get through the whole lot I have a feeling I'll get pretty good at it. Backsaws will be last.

[george wilson]

I sharpened my Blitz backsaw a while back. they must have around 40 or 50 tpi. not worth it unless you need it NOW,and can't get to a store. Actually,it didn't take that long. 1 light swipe per tooth. The "rag" of the needle file makes the set. That's how old time marquetry makers made their own blades. They used a watch spring,filed the teeth on freehand,and let the rag of the file be the set in the saw.

[Auguste Gusteau]

I have participated to that threads and I can assure to you that nobody has never spoken badly about Lie-Nielsen saws.
The only thing that I and other ones have tried to make clear to Christopher is that there are other valid and less expansive alternatives to Lie Nielsen Panel Saw. And it is unfair to compare this saw with 5 dollars one.
I want to repeat that noone has never said nothing bad about the quality of Lie-Nielsen saws, so if you are rich or you have a lot of money to spent for hand saw buy safely those saws. Consider that you will need at least two saws, one rip and one xcut, and from time to time you will need to send them to a good resharpening service.

This is what I was trying to explain to Christopher, then he has started to say that I am a troll and blablabla then he closed the comments without leaving me the time to answer his questions and so I was not able to finish the speech.

By the way here what I have answered to Christopher questions:
"Christopher, you made me several question, so please, let me answer.
I don't have a Lie-Nielsen saw, but I have tried a copule of them, one new and one resharpened, and both cut well.
I don't have a Thomas Flinn, but I have tried several resharpened Lynx and Pax and they cut as well as the aboves.
I don't have an old Disston and as I remember I never tried one of them.
I use a 48 cm. bowsaw with a fantastic swedish 0.5 mm. thick sawplate and another blade made by me from a scrap of metal bandsaw and another 80 cm. bowsaw that I use very rarely.
I've got and use others resharpened saw, some new and some old, some german, some english and some swedish, (but excuse me, i don't remember the brand name, I'm not a fashion victim) and I use also some impulse hardened theef saws, some western and some estern and all my saws cut as well as Lie-Nielsen's. And each has its merits and quality.
Have you got any other questions?"

But unfortunately, as often happened in the past, Christopher has chosen to not publish my comment.


Auguste, who apologizes for his bad English

[Auguste Gusteau]

I think that bob is too optimistic.
Saws are like any other cutting tools: the more they are sharpened the more they work well.


Auguste, who apologizes for his bad English