PDA

View Full Version : Hey you farmers! Tractor question



Larry Edgerton
07-26-2009, 9:39 AM
I am researching a tractor purchase, and I want your opinions.

What I am after is a older loader tractor with stamina. One like the 8N that will have parts availability forever, but with a more modern arrangement and the ability to run a snowblower/rototiller/buzz rig/ box blade and a strong enough bucket to allow me to add forks and use it for loading my wood products.

I have a forklift but it will be useless in my new operation in the country as it is pavement only, and my brother needs it anyway.

I want to use it to manage the property and wood lot, till the garden, keep the drive clear, and I want it to do it for the next 30 years if need be, hence the parts availability issue.

I like Fords 345 commercials, as they are low and powerful, but there are not enough of them that I fear parts will be a problem down the line. I have been looking a MF 165-265's, they seem to have a cult like following, and they have a gas motor available, which would be fine with me in my cold climate. I will not be burning a lot of fuel plowing so fuel economy is secondary to cost of maintainance, and I can maintain a gas job myself.

Size matters. I do not want a compact, but I do not want a tractor that will not fit in the garage either with a loader and blower. That gives me 23'6" to work with with some room for error subtracted.

Before the Jap/Korean/Chinese tractor fans start yapping, I am not at all interested. They have no character, I do not feel that they will have parts available in the future, and I am not going to add to our national deficiept if I can help it. My choice.

Anyway... what other models do you fellows that live and breath tractors think I should be looking at? Again, long term parts availability is a major concern as I will keep this forever.

Thanks, Larry

Say I find a tractor, like a nice 165 i just saw but without a loader. How tough is it to find/mount a loader on an older tractor?

Steve Rozmiarek
07-26-2009, 10:24 AM
Morning Larry,

That 165 Massey you found is a good little tractor. Pretty much all of the manufacturers had competing tractors in that size though, so International, Ford, Case, John Deere, Oliver, Farmall and others all have a tractor that may suit your needs.

The 165 has live pto and hydralics, I think, which are a very good thing. Some of the older tractors will not. Power steering is also a really good option with a loader, and I don't know if the 165/265 has that or not.

The loader should not be much of a problem to mount on to any tractor that you get. Basically, there are a couple different model loaders that the manufacturers make, and you then buy the mounting kit for your tractor. Loaders can be pretty expensive for new though, you may want to find a used loader before you buy the tractor.

One other thing, a smaller tractor, like an 8N, will not take a loader that will go much higher then 7 or 8 feet. The bigger size tractors, the more capacity you can get with a loader.

There are so many options that you'll have to pick what you like the looks of. I personally would look at a slightly larger tractor, a 756 International, or a 3020 Deere maybe. These have higher clearance and a bit more capacity for attachments, but they may be too large for what you want to do. International made a 404 that would be a comparable to the 165 that may work for you too. Any tractor that has a "collector" market will cost more, but parts are easier to find.

Here is a web site that will let you search the listings based on whatever criteria you want: www.tractorhouse.com (http://www.tractorhouse.com)

Oh, make sure you see the tractor on person before buying. Krylon overhauls look good in photos, but leaks and nasty noises are hard to hide in person.

David G Baker
07-26-2009, 11:12 AM
Larry,
Steve has given you some great advice.

Dave Verstraete
07-26-2009, 2:53 PM
Larry
Living "UP" there, the emphasis on a big snowblower is understood:D.

Curt Harms
07-26-2009, 4:24 PM
"Krylon overhaul":D:D.

Scott T Smith
07-26-2009, 9:01 PM
Larry, I live on a farm and have several tractors, from 22 up to 110 hp. For starters, how much weight do you need to pick up and move with the forks? This will impact the recommendation.

Some tractors offer the "universal skid steer" attachment on the loader, which allows you to use any of the skidsteer buckets, forks, grapples, augers, blowers, etc. I have this on one of my tractors and really like it, as it allows me a vast selection of attachments for reasonable prices.

Aftermarket loaders are available, and usually cost around 4 - 6 K new, depending upon size and availability. Allo (Quickie brand) has an excellent reputation amongst the aftermarket ones.

4WD tractors are desireable for loader applications, as the front ends stand up much better to the extra loads required by the loader. Also beneficial is a tractor with a "shuttle shift", as usually when using forks or a loader you tend to move back and forth a lot. Shuttle shifts allow for quick shifting between forward and reverse - unlike a lot of farm tractors with standard gear shifts.

FYI just about all small tractors (less than 40 hp) are currently made oversees, even the ones marketed by the major US brands (John Deere, New Holland, Case, etc). It's been this way for the last 15 - 20 years.

What about a skid steer loader instead of a tractor? There is a wealth of attachments available, and many are US manufacture. The ones with tracks don't tear up the ground as much as the wheeled ones.

David G Baker
07-26-2009, 9:07 PM
Steve R.,
I spent an hour on the Tractor House site and have added it to my favorites so I can go back and spend more hours just looking. Not shopping, just getting educated.
Thank you a bunch for posting the site. I had not heard of the site prior to your post.

Steve Clardy
07-26-2009, 10:55 PM
8N, 9N, and the 800 series tractors really aren't big enough for a front end loader, especially with a fork attachment.
Necessities power steering, as without, they are a bear to steer.
Then you weight the bucket, and they are difficult to maneuver.

I've had 2 of those fords with a loader, and to me they just are not big enough to handle them. And there's a zillion of them out there with loaders.


The 4000 series fords do a good job of handling a front end loader.

Steve Rozmiarek
07-27-2009, 1:44 AM
Steve R.,
I spent an hour on the Tractor House site and have added it to my favorites so I can go back and spend more hours just looking. Not shopping, just getting educated.
Thank you a bunch for posting the site. I had not heard of the site prior to your post.


It's a wealth of info! I bought a really speciallized piece of farm equipment using that site last year. It's a great resource and the bean cart that I bought was actually not even what I was looking for. I was looking for a conveyor cart, so to accidently find a piece of equipment that did the job better really helped this farm out.

It's also useful to see if the local guy is gouging you...;)

Steve Rozmiarek
07-27-2009, 1:56 AM
Larry, I live on a farm and have several tractors, from 22 up to 110 hp. For starters, how much weight do you need to pick up and move with the forks? This will impact the recommendation.

Some tractors offer the "universal skid steer" attachment on the loader, which allows you to use any of the skidsteer buckets, forks, grapples, augers, blowers, etc. I have this on one of my tractors and really like it, as it allows me a vast selection of attachments for reasonable prices.

Aftermarket loaders are available, and usually cost around 4 - 6 K new, depending upon size and availability. Allo (Quickie brand) has an excellent reputation amongst the aftermarket ones.

4WD tractors are desireable for loader applications, as the front ends stand up much better to the extra loads required by the loader. Also beneficial is a tractor with a "shuttle shift", as usually when using forks or a loader you tend to move back and forth a lot. Shuttle shifts allow for quick shifting between forward and reverse - unlike a lot of farm tractors with standard gear shifts.

FYI just about all small tractors (less than 40 hp) are currently made oversees, even the ones marketed by the major US brands (John Deere, New Holland, Case, etc). It's been this way for the last 15 - 20 years.

What about a skid steer loader instead of a tractor? There is a wealth of attachments available, and many are US manufacture. The ones with tracks don't tear up the ground as much as the wheeled ones.

Scott, the skid steer is a really good option IMHO. I have a mini, a Toro Dingo that I bought for use around the yard, and to put in a sprinkler system. It will carry 500 pounds, has a huge pile of attachments, and really does a great job. The next sizes up add more capacity. A Cat tracked model runs a bit over $60,000 though, so they can be pricey too. Good deals can be had on used. The quick attach is great, as is the compact size and manuverability.

A regular tractor has better traction usually though, so it is preferable for some jobs. The skid steer will beat it easily as a loader. The regular tractor is easier on turf too. Around here, a good used Bobcat with a bucket and a set of forks will start at $10,000 generally.

Larry Edgerton
07-27-2009, 8:08 AM
Gentlemen

First, I went to a Flywheelers show yesterday in Boyne Falls Mi and if you are into machinery, that is just a riot. They have old thrashers running with steam tractors for power, a complete sawmill run again by a steam tractor, and of course scores of old iron of all sorts in working order, along with blacksmiths and all kinds of crafts being done at the time in front of you. Great way to spend a Sunday/Saturday.

Steve, I have been spending time every morning studying Tractor House to get an idea what is what.

As far as the weight on the forks, 1000# capasity would get me by. I have a 1955 Towmotor forklift, but it will not be able to get out of the shop. That is why I have been looking at the industrials. I was thinking just general use shifting stacks of lumber from the wood shed to the shop and moving pieces from the shop to the finish building which will be a couple of hundred feet apart. I could pave the drive, but it is on a gravel road, so what is the point, and that would screw up my excuse to buy a tractor.:D

I am figuring on chains in the winter, so although I know 4 wheel drive is nice and all, I also used to own a JD 300 industrial and know the job can be accomplished with the simpler 2 wheel drive. Actually a JD 300 or simular is on my list as well, but they are a little on the large side.

Which brand of tractor hurts the least at the parts counter? What I mean is, well for example, my brother has a auto repair facility and I am amazed at what Toyota and Honda have the audacity to charge for parts, and so would never buy either. Is there a tractor brand to avoid for this reason?

I have owned skid steers, not what I want, and a pain to work on. Besides I am looking for that "Cult Tractor" that will have an availability of parts long term.

By the way you guys that live on a farm. I am envious. I know it is a lot of work, but I like to work, and to be a crop farmer [No Animals please!] appeals to me. My grandfather was a farmer in Michigans thumb, farmed 450 acres back in the 30-40"s until a tornado and my dad getting shot wiped him out. When he died he had a 40 was all and the kids quickly turned that into a subdivision. I had permission when I was a kid to walk his old 450 as the owner was a friend of his, and I would imagine how it was for my grandfather in those days. Wonderful people in that farm country, I still remember many a Sunday dinner at many a farm, and that was over 40 years ago.

Gotta go make shavings.....

Jim Becker
07-27-2009, 9:24 AM
FYI just about all small tractors (less than 40 hp) are currently made oversees, even the ones marketed by the major US brands (John Deere, New Holland, Case, etc). It's been this way for the last 15 - 20 years.

Ya, this was what I was going to mention, too...and parts availability for the name-brands is excellent, even for very old models. (True for Kubota, I know for sure, both those imported and those made in Georgia) That said, you should be able to find something like you want, but it may just take a bit of looking and not just local. Check out the various online tractor sites.

Steve Leverich
07-27-2009, 3:04 PM
I find that a lot of tractor ads just give the model # and expect you to know what it is - if you DON'T (like me) here's another good info site

http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/index.html

HTH... Steve

Steve Rozmiarek
07-27-2009, 4:15 PM
Larry, I think you're the perfect owner of a tractor with "character". I've always been impressed with those old Massey's attention to detail in construction. Good stuff. As for what is cheapest to maintain, I'd say Deere is the worst, and International is probably the best. That is completely relevant to the location of the nearest parts counter though.

Do you have an equipment dealer near? Pretty much just three makes now. John Deere, Case (Ford, International, New Holland, Farmall, etc.), and Agco (pretty much everything else). The dealers are plugged into national networks for parts, so they may have to order something, but it's mostly still available, however they will be brand loyal. I think there are online parts sources now, but maybe one of the other guys knows a source there.

Farming is a lot of work. There are days when its a pretty crappy way to earn a living too. The rest of the time though, it's good to be growing things!

Butch Edwards
07-27-2009, 7:10 PM
John Deere 2040, in good shape, will do just fine for loaders and other implements...we just let ours go to another gov't facility, and it was a great tractor, we had to get rid of it to get a newer model. I think it was a late 70s model, but it started 1st time everytime....and had 60HP(approx).... plenty of power to do what you're after....

Scott T Smith
07-27-2009, 9:19 PM
For a 1000 lb payload, you'll want something in the 45- 60 HP range, (and more is better).

Ditto Steve's comment on staying away from the 8N / 9N Fords. They are great all-around tractors - until you put a loader on them.

Any of the older American Iron is good - what I'd do is find out what is common in your area (ie what were the most popular tractors 20 - 30 years ago where you live) and look into that. The more local tractors that were sold, the greater the parts availablility (for a lower cost).

In North Carolina, the state Ag Department puts out a monthly publication called the Agricultural Review, and that's the best place to find deals on old farm equipment. You might want to check with some of the local Ag Extension agents to see if they have something similar.

If you use bucket forks, keep in mind that if you're bucket can pick up 1000 lbs your forks will be 30% or so less than that - due to the increased distance from the cylinders (and leverage).

Larry Edgerton
07-28-2009, 8:05 AM
Scott, that is the HP range I have been looking in.

I owned a 8N, well actually a Ferguson TO20, but basically the same thing other than the engine, and I got rid of it because of its limited ability, lack of live PTO and weak front end/hydraulics.

I was looking last night and there are a lot of backhoes for sale cheap with relitively low hours, say Case 580/2 wheel/1000ish hours in the $12K range, and some JD 300's for less. I know there are some that can be switched from hoe to 3 point, so I may want to investigate that. Still, they are more than I can afford right now. The increased bucket capasity of an industrial does have its merits though.

I did use a 2020 a couple of weekends ago to build a fence on my uncles farm, so now I really have the bug. I talked to the fellow that is leasing my uncles crop land as he was spraying. This is hilly odd shaped land, and his spray rig did it all by itself with GPS. He just read a book. I know it is more productive, but it seems farming is like woodworking, its turning into a video game for a few big players that can afford the equipment? Hopefully food quality is not being compromised like wood products have been.

I will check out Internationals next.

Ed Labadie
07-28-2009, 9:12 AM
Take a look at a Ford/New Holland 2120.

http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/000/5/9/595-ford-new-holland-2120.html

They are still in production, but not sold in the US.

I've been very pleased with mine!

Ed

Steve Rozmiarek
07-28-2009, 10:10 AM
You are right abou the old farming ways going away Larry. Autosteer and all it's related GPS options are fantastic from my perspective as the bean counter. We use five of those systems for all the passes through the fields, and their use is one of the key factors in why we can still farm. Crop prices are very similar to what they where 60 years ago, not adjusted for inflation, so to keep doing this, we have to use efficiancy to cheapen up our inputs. A sugar beet field that used to take 8 passes to get to harvest, now takes 3. More is done per pass, and more accuratly.

We use variable rate, which allows us to vary fertilizer, seed and chemicals, per a perscription that is generated by data analyisis of past yields, soil samples, and any other criteria. Honestly, a huge part of the farm work actually happens in the office now. New combines cost $400,000 each, tractors are $250,000, planters $80,000, etc, with many multiples of each needed for a larger farm. Ag has changed so much in the last 15 years that it's hard to believe. I'm a younger guy, and don't mind it, but some of the older folks that don't understand the new applications are really getting left behind. Sad to see, but those guys turn into my landlords I guess. Funny thing is, we can farm their ground and make us both more money by using the new tech, then they where making on their own.

I definatly understand the appeal of the old farming lifestyle, but I'm sad to say, that it's on life support. Got a little off on a tangent there!

Larry Edgerton
07-28-2009, 8:48 PM
Steve, how far are you from Ogalalla?

I stop in there at the same cafe' on main street every time I go through there, time it so I am there early for breakfast, and sit and listen to the old farmers talk, sometimes they get curious and invite me to sit in. Interesting people, wish we had more like them around here.

I may be one of the two people in Michigan that actually like Nebraska!

David G Baker
07-28-2009, 8:58 PM
Larry,
You can find the same type of folks and conversation in Michigan but you have to be in the right places. What's not to like about Nebraska? I have lived off and on in Michigan for 22 years and have never heard or read anything negative about Nebraska. Unless you are writing about sports.
Don't know how many old farmers are located in Northern Michigan but the Lower Peninsula has a lot of them.

Steve Rozmiarek
07-28-2009, 9:12 PM
Larry, I'm about 100 miles northwest of Ogalalla. I was actually born there though. Ogalalla is on the south edge of the sandhills, we're on the west edge. Just curious, who's the other who likes Nebraska?

David, it all boils down to collage football. We have a pretty good school here, and rumor has it that Michigan does too;). There is a little bit of a disagreement as to which one is better.... That season is coming up soon!

Larry Edgerton
07-28-2009, 9:26 PM
David is the other person that likes Nebraska! ;)

David, where I live is a resort area, wall to wall yuppies. White collar automotive mostly. Which I didn't mind until they ran out of money....... Farmers are on the east side, I'm on the west.

Steve, the place I go there is full of old car stuff and has the old diner stools and such. Pink I think, but its been about 4 years since I was there. It is sad to see towns like Ogallala slowly slipping into obscurity. Ever time I am there the town is a little less alive and a little more tired looking. I expect the diner to be closed next trip, but I hope not.

David G Baker
07-28-2009, 10:20 PM
Larry,
I thought it had to be a sports thing. Spent too much time recording sporting events when I worked in TV in San Francisco so I no longer follow any sporting events.

Steve Rozmiarek
07-29-2009, 1:34 AM
Larry, is that diner Hoke's by any chance?

Steve Rozmiarek
07-29-2009, 1:36 AM
But David, it's NCAA football! Thats different!

David G Baker
07-29-2009, 10:04 AM
Some football is fine but visualize having to record over 60 hours of basketball in one weekend and having to change out 13 1 hour tapes every hour on the hour. Turned me off for almost all sporting events.
One thing I will admit, I throughly enjoyed the last ten minutes of every game in all sporting event.
NCAA football is different but not enough difference for me to sit through a game :D.
I would have to cover the Berkeley/Stanford rival game on occasion, then after the game go to college sports bar and do live shots, usually in Berkeley. Talk about a bunch of animals. I worked with a woman videographer and woman reporter. Both were lucky to get out of the bar with out being molested.
Now about John Deere tractors. :D

Scott T Smith
07-29-2009, 10:42 AM
One other thing - for a loader, you really want a tractor with power steering and wide front tires.

Steve Rozmiarek
07-29-2009, 4:21 PM
Some football is fine but visualize having to record over 60 hours of basketball in one weekend and having to change out 13 1 hour tapes every hour on the hour. Turned me off for almost all sporting events.
One thing I will admit, I throughly enjoyed the last ten minutes of every game in all sporting event.
NCAA football is different but not enough difference for me to sit through a game :D.
I would have to cover the Berkeley/Stanford rival game on occasion, then after the game go to college sports bar and do live shots, usually in Berkeley. Talk about a bunch of animals. I worked with a woman videographer and woman reporter. Both were lucky to get out of the bar with out being molested.
Now about John Deere tractors. :D

I understand!

Larry Edgerton
07-29-2009, 8:05 PM
Larry, is that diner Hoke's by any chance?


Ya, its Hoke's. Funny, the first time I stopped in there was in the 70's on my way to a Greatful Dead concert at Redrock in Colorado, and I have not passed it by without stopping for 30 years. It didn't seem that retro in the 70's, go figure.....