Shop ceiling insulated

[Matt Meiser]

The crew came today to insulate my shop ceiling but I don't think they did a very good job. Before I call the guy out to have him come take a look, I want to make sure I don't have my expectations set to high.

First, they were unable to install the foam baffles at the soffits because of how tight the space is. They said they would angle the insulation to keep these areas clear, which they seem to have done.

Second, the coverage seems very uneven. Without climbing around up there, I would say the depth varies from well over a foot deep to somewhere around 6" deep. They were suppsed to insulate to R38, which I believe is 10" deep. I also think they could have kept the depth at a deeper level closer to the eaves as there is still a ton or room (they aren't even touching the 2x4 that makes up the top of the truss.) I've posted a picture below.

[Ken Garlock]

Matt, I think you have valid complaints. Even if the vent baffles would not slide into the soffit area, they could have pushed the vent up to and on the top plate thus leaving room for ventilation. Sounds like they were lazy. IIRC, you only need a soffit baffle about every 2 or 3 rafters. Of course you need ample air vents in the underside of the soffit....

Since one inch of fiberglass is worth R3+, I would insure that I had 12 inches to get to the R38. But you can never have too much. Also, be sure you have attic ventilation year around. It seems that most of the state of Texas does not understand that :rolleyes: The local hardware stores sell plugs to place in the throat of the roof-top turbine vents.. I also see people putting black plastic trash bags over the turbine vents.

So, get the manager back and give him a list of what you will check for when his crew is done.

Illegitimus non carborundum ;)

[Matt Meiser]

Sorry, I forgot to say that the insulation material is cellulose. I didn't want fiberglass in case I ever need to crawl around up there again.

[Tyler Howell]

Danger Danger!:mad:

The insullation must not touch the outer sheathing in our neck of the woods or you'll get ice dams and premature roof failure. Can't see from your pic here, You say they sloped it away??? It looks ok for even from here as long as you get the ten inches you paid for.
Is it living space as well (bath, showers, cooking)?? all sources of moisture.
Good luck;)

[Matt Meiser]

Tyler,
They did keep the insulation off the roof sheathing. This is a separate building which I keep dehumidified, so moisture will be low.

[larry merlau]

i agree withthe others on the lack of quality, i have done alot of that and put htose baffels in areas just as tight as yours, its not always easy but definatly possible. you can get them in postion and staple in place wher eits reachable. and none of thejjbs i have done were that uneven. they probally just went byt he bag requirments and said you got your amount in there. up inmy neck of the woods they are required to leave one bag for verifacation in the amount put in and r valus delivered. by all means voice your opinion. you can control the level of that stuf with out to much difficulty if you have an experience in it at all. just my humble opion if it were my job i would be ashamed of it.

[Pete Lamberty]

Hi Matt, I thought of something after I read your last post. You said that you dehumidify the building so the moisture will be low. Do you dehumidify the space in the photo? The way humiditiy gets into attic space is this. On a warm sunny summer day the temprature is well over a hundred in an attic. Hot air holds alot of moisture. Then in the evening the outside air cools the roof shingles and its wood. Humid air condenses on cool surfaces. So the wood will have water droplets on its surface. This starts rot. If you have adequate ventilation this won't happen. I thought that you should consider this. Someone else here will definately be able to explain this better than I did, but at least you should get the idea. Hope this helps a little. Pete

[Matt Meiser]

Pete, I have continuous soffit and ridge venting so I shouldn't have an issue. I can see the light coming in the soffit vents, so they definitely kept them clear.

I just spoke with the manager. He agreed that it doesn't sound like they did a very even job. He said that the material they used has an R value of 19 per 4", so I should have 8". He is going to come out to inspect and probably rake it out so that the coverage is more even. From the sound if it, they probably used enough insulation, just didn't apply it very well. Should be fun for him. I was up there last night running some wiring and was drenched when I finished. I was only up there for about a 1/2 hour.

[Tyler Howell]

Cellulose is as much fun to roll around in as fiberglass on a nice hot summer day. Especially with small tools and electrical parts:o :o

[Jim Ketron]

I wouldn't do a lot of walking/crawling after it's blown in that type of insulation gets compacted when you step on it and you will lose some of your R value
When we install sprinkler systems in attics we have to crawl/walk on it and a lot of it is flatend and they usualy have to blow more in when we are finished.
Jim

[Jim Becker]

The baffles should still have been installed and in most areas are required by code-they are there to insure air flow continues over time. While the blown-in insulation may not be affecting your venting or be in contact with the roof sheathing "now", over time, it could blow around a bit if your venting is working properly.

[Tom LaRussa]

First, they were unable to install the foam baffles at the soffits because of how tight the space is. They said they would angle the insulation to keep these areas clear, which they seem to have done.
Matt,

I insulated the attic space above my three car garage just a few weeks ago. I also used blow-in cellulose. I did most of the job by myself, with just a few hours of help from a nephew, so I can speak from experience.

This was during July, and the heat index, (heat as modified by humidity), was well over 100 degrees. I have no idea what it was up in the attic, but I could only work up there about 30 minutes at a time before coming down and splashing water all over myself to cool off.

My attic space is much tighter than yours, but I still managed to put up the vents on every rafter, (truss top piece, whatever you call them in a truss construction). I did it by crawling from truss to truss, and in some places by slithering on my chest from trust to trust.

I don't relate this to show how tough or macho I am -- since I'm really pretty much of a wienie. I'm only telling you because if I can do it then a supposedly professional contractor has absolutely no excuse for not installing those vent/baffle/thingies.




Second, the coverage seems very uneven. Without climbing around up there, I would say the depth varies from well over a foot deep to somewhere around 6" deep. They were suppsed to insulate to R38, which I believe is 10" deep. I also think they could have kept the depth at a deeper level closer to the eaves as there is still a ton or room (they aren't even touching the 2x4 that makes up the top of the truss.) I've posted a picture below.
My coverage is pretty uneven too, but then I'm not an insulation contractor, just a schmuck who couldn't afford to pay an insulation contractor. If I had the money to pay an insulation contractor I would insist that the job be done better than if I did it myself -- in short, I would insist on a professional looking job, with all applicable codes followed. I think you should do the same.

JMHO,

Tom

[Tom LaRussa]

Matt,

I just thought of another issue. You didn't mention it, and I can't tell from the picture -- did they put up little dams around any ceiling-mounted lights? That is also required by code for fire prevention. I think the clearance has to be 6" in all directions, but I'm not really sure any longer. I know that I got the info from the web site of the manufacturer of the insulation, (which I purchased at Lowes).

[Jim Becker]

Tom, the type of light makes a difference...some are rated for direct contact/covering with insulation; many are not.

[Matt Meiser]

I think I am in good shape to get them take care of things. I haven't written the check yet, and they seem to have misplaced the signed copy of the proposal I faxed back to them. I believe I'm dealing with a reputable company as they've been in buisiness as a building supply company for about 25 years and in the insulation buisiness for about 5 with no complaints to the BBB, which they are a member of. I think that he thought this was a small job, low risk, so they didn't follow their normal way of doing things. At the consulting company where I work, we try to get away with that every once in a while and we almost always get burned because of it. Then after a while we forget and try it again.

If everything isn't to my satisfaction when he leaves Tuesday, I won't be paying him then. I'll send them a registered letter stating what will have to be done before I pay.

Jim,
I know that I've seen you post before that you worked in the insulation field before. What do you think about the depth of the material? He stated that 8" of cellulose is R38, which is what I stated I wanted. We never talked depth, just R value during the quoting process.

[Jim Becker]

Sorry, Matt. No experience with celulose, only glass. R-value is exactly what you want. I had a suspicion that 8" is inadequate for R38 for some reason, and one site on a Google search I just did indicates that Cellulose has an R-value of 3.0 per inch. That means you need a little more than 12" for R38. You actually want more during your initial installation as settling will reduce R-value over time.

[Matt Meiser]

Thanks Jim. I did a Google search this morning and found similar values.

I think I'll tell him to bring documentation from the manufacturer showing that 8" is sufficient.

[Jerry Olexa]

Matt hate to be negative but they should have installed those baffles. Your roof slope/rise is fairly conventional. I can't see why they didn't install them other than the obvious. Of course, they should be installed BEFORE the insulation is blown it. This is an important part of roof attic ventilation!! I'd certainly call this to their attention before you settle on the bill.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Looks like they half a__ed the job. I blew mine to a consistent 8" deep in a little over two hours with help from the wife feeding the bags into the hopper. You can however, rake it into consistency. I know it's a hassle, but getting them back out might be worse.

[Matt Meiser]

The insulation company came back out today, including the project manager. He agreed that they did a poor job. In fact, one area I couldn't see only had about 5" of insulation. They did a little raking, but it was compressing the insulation too much so they stopped that and blew in more material to a consistent 13" depth. He says he got confused about the depth needed because we had talked about R30 and R38 both. He thought I decided on R30. He did show me the packaging which said to blow to 11.8" for R38. They could not install the baffles, but made sure to keep everything open.

Overall, I think they ended up doing a good job, but it was very disappointing that it took two tries. I'd have a hard time recommending or using them again.

On a related note, last weekend it was pretty warm here, but even with the poor job, I could already notice a difference in temperature in the shop. The ceiling wasn't radiating nearly the amount of heat from the attic that it had been before. I'm looking forward to seeing how this improves both heating and cooling the space.