A few thoughts for new-neanders

[Sean Hughto]

I see a lot of threads here about relative minutia of tool choice and preparation. While I don't claim to be nearly the expert many here are, I would offer up a few general insights I've gleaned from many years of hobbiest woodworking:

1. Tool choice is often driven by an individual's preferred method of work, their subjects (i.e., the type of pieces they make), and pure subjective preference. Remember this when you ask for input on tool choices: you are getting idiosyncratic opinions. Also, perhaps add some details to your request of how you intend to use the tool, and on what sorts of projects in order to get more meaningful responses.

2. While it sometimes happens, breakthroughs and epiphanies in woodworking are rarely found in minutia. For example, I don't think I've ever measured a precise chisel angle once, and yet my chisels all work very well, and I kinda doubt 19 tpi at a rake angle of blah, rather than 15 tpi at a rake angle of blah blah and is going to allow me to finally cut perfect dovetails.

3. While we all love fine tools, at a certain point of quality, more refinement or different styles become more about looks and what you are used to than issues that actually affect performance.

4. It's easy to get bogged down in tool choices or sharpening options and refinements. Sometimes these details make it all seem much more complex than it really is. Hand tool woodworking does not require the tools and tolerances of aerospace engineering. Relax and enjoy making some shavings and dust!

[mike holden]

A very hearty AMEN!!

Mike

[John Keeton]

Add me to the Amen group in the front row!! Couldn't have been better stated, although "idiosyncratic opinions" is a much kinder description of my opinions than I have heard from my wife and others:D

[Nathan Talbert]

As a new neander (green and still wet behind the ears), I really appreciate the post. Now if I only knew what "minutia" means :rolleyes:

[Billy Chambless]

Amen!


ps: what kind of chisels should I buy?

;)

[alex grams]

Ditto.

Something always peculiar to me was the almost obsessiveness of some people in regards to the precision flatness of their tabletop or jointer being .001" out of level, when the wood can move that much each day on its own. It feels to me like someone counting the number of leaves on the tree when all I really want to know is if it provides some shade. I just can't see the functionality of that level of precision in regards to woodworking.

Disclaimer: I am not knocking those who enjoy making sure they have highly tuned tools, but at some point the gain becomes negligible.

[John Keeton]

Disclaimer: I am not knocking those who enjoy making sure they have highly tuned tools, but at some point the gain becomes negligible.Alex, I think the point is that for some, the ultimate flatness, or ultimate edge is part of the challenge.

I probably obsess over certain things as well, but the "gain" is personal satisfaction.

So, if you need your plane to be sharpened to 30,000, and your TS to be dead flat, then the "gain" to be achieved is not a woodworking gain, but more of a personal achievement. That is an acceptable goal - just not mine:D

On the other hand, with dovetails, even though I am quite new to the game, I want mine to be as tight as they can possibly be - though I know that for the most part, period furniture simply did not meet those standards. It is a personal challenge, and I don't feel yours need to be perfect - just mine!!

I think the point is to realize "why" one is taking it to the next level, and that the impact or effect on the woodworking may be negligible.

[george wilson]

I agree with this post very much. I never measure my chisel angles,etc. either. acute edges for paring,less acute for heavier work. That's enough to do the work I have done.

None of my fellow craftsmen ever sat around debating this sort of thing,either. Most professionals would laugh at these discussions that go on.

I say,sharpen your tools and get some work done!!!

[Rusty Elam]

Ok that is quite enough of this common sense thing. If you keep this up you will have people believing you can actually build nice furniture pieces without a aeronautics degree and a electron microscope to look at the cutting edges of your planes.......sheesh! ;)
Rusty

[Mark Roderick]

I'm in full agreement, but the problem is that the only reason I agree is that I know what you really mean.

When you say "there's no point in going too far" the novice doesn't really get much from it. Okay, so tell me what's too far? Is Grizzly too far? Are Lie Nielsen planes too far? How sharp is sharp enough?

The problem isn't that people don't understand the concept, the problem is that people don't know how to apply the concept to practice. And this seems to be unanswerable for two reasons:

1) It's impossible to put into words what degree of sharpness or quality we're looking for. You just have to experience it yourself.

2) For each of us, the meaning of "too far" might be different, and it might even different for the same person as between, say, the quality of a hand plane and the quality of a table saw.

Back in the days of the apprentice system, a master could SHOW the apprentice what he means. Today, with all of us individuals working alone in our individual shops, it just seems necessary for each of us to live through the struggles and find our own personal point of equilibrum.

Thus, those long threads will always be with us.

[Sean Hughto]

When you say "there's no point in going too far" the novice doesn't really get much from it. Okay, so tell me what's too far? Is Grizzly too far? Are Lie Nielsen planes too far? How sharp is sharp enough?

I'm not sure who your response was supposed to be addressed to, but if you meant me, my point wasn't to chastise folks for "going too far", but to let new folks know that "you don't have to go all that far to get good results."



The problem isn't that people don't understand the concept, the problem is that people don't know how to apply the concept to practice. And this seems to be unanswerable for two reasons:

1) It's impossible to put into words what degree of sharpness or quality we're looking for. You just have to experience it yourself.

I don't think this is true. Either the chisel cut wood well enough or it doesn't. If it doesn't, go back to the stones or what have you and try again. It is indeed to true that once you get the hang of it, you will get better and better at getting sharper and sharper edges with less and less effort, but the initial hurdle - sharp enough to do good woodwork - is not that high.


2) For each of us, the meaning of "too far" might be different, and it might even different for the same person as between, say, the quality of a hand plane and the quality of a table saw.

Again, my point wasn't about what is "too far" but what is "far enough." "Too far" is indeed impossible to define as each to their own - go nuts with elctron microscopes, if it floats your boat. "Far enough" is easy: the tool does the job well with reasonable effort.


Back in the days of the apprentice system, a master could SHOW the apprentice what he means. Today, with all of us individuals working alone in our individual shops, it just seems necessary for each of us to live through the struggles and find our own personal point of equilibrum.

It really is because of this last point that I posted. The magazines, books, and web content can make it seem like decisions about tool choices and set up are pivotal. The truth is that they usually are not. There is little need to angst over whether to buy the 4 or the 4 1/2 or the LV or the LN or to sharpen to 30 degrees or 28 or to hollow grind or flat or use a micro bevel or not... All will get you there just fine.

There's nothing like putting blade to wood to quickly learn about how almost magically forgiving or unforgiving our wood and tools can be. When it's been unforgiving, I've never found myself saying: "gee, if I'd only bought _____ instead of _____ or sharpened this blade 2 degrees less steeply ..." Those were never the answers. Does that make sense? Prolly not ;-)

[Joe Denney]

I would agree with you pretty strongly, as like a lot of new woodworkers (neander and tailed), I got overwhelmed with the amount of discussion on esoteric topics on this board and others I visit. My advice to others who, like me, are just starting out is to get a basic set of tools and USE THEM! I certainly got "paralysis through analysis" and didn't know it was OK to just make practice cuts, or use a plane just to use it. You can learn on wood from a big box store as well as you can on expensive, roughcut lumber. What is important is that you actually spend time in the shop. I learn more every hour I spend woodworking than I do in 5 hours reading posts on message boards. Pick a project and start. I'm building a workbench right now, and I have had to start over because I didn't really understand how to mark up a board (or four:o). Frustrating, yes, but I look at it as paying tuition on learning a highly complicated skill. I try (once I have calmed down) to remember that nothing is free, and that includes learning. You don't have to have a shop full of equipment, or 50% of the LN or LV catalog to start. Books, classes, DVD's, youtube, and message boards are all great resources, but at the end of the day, you have to put tool to wood. Once you have done this, and you realize how much fun it is, and that the satisfaction you get from creating something is unlike any other, then you will 'get it'.

It's easy to forget when you are starting out many of the conversations on here ultimately aren't about woodworking, but about tools. Tool collecting, restoring, maintaining, sharpening, etc. are all fun and interesting, but if your goal is to make stuff from wood, many of these conversations aren't really relevant to that. While these conversations relate tangentially to woodworking, they don't do much to help you actually work wood. Again, I'm not trying to disparage those who partake in those conversations, nor am I trying to minimize their importance, but simply trying to remind myself and other beginners that if woodworking is the point, you need to actually work wood. Learning about all the stuff in woodworking is interesting, but at the end of the day, turn off the computer and get to the shop. That's where the fun is!

[Jim Koepke]

As a new neander (green and still wet behind the ears), I really appreciate the post. Now if I only knew what "minutia" means :rolleyes:

Check your Operating System. Mine does this when the cursor is placed on a word and control, command D is pressed:

123431

For a PC, try right clicking, or someone else may know the way.

jim

[Mark Roderick]

You say "Either the chisel cut wood well enough or it doesn't," but therein lies the dilemma. How is the novice to know what "well enough" means, without being shown?

Similarly, the novice sharpens his plane blade and tries to plane some curly maple. Is the tearout the result of a less-than-sharp blade, an untuned plane, a low-quality plane, the wrong cutting angle, or just the gnarliness of the wood itself? How is he to know without being shown?

A great way to find out is to attend a class. But for many of us, you don't learn until you've been through the process yourself dozens of times.

This, by the way, is why I always recommend that beginners buy the first hand plane from Lie-Nielsen or Veritas. It reduces the number of variables to a manageable figure.

[Sean Hughto]

"You say "Either the chisel cut wood well enough or it doesn't," but therein lies the dilemma. How is the novice to know what "well enough" means, without being shown?"

Well, I guess I would expect their hands and eyes to tell them. I don't think that it's difficult to tell or something that someone really needs to show you. Technique, perhaps, but not sharpness.

"Similarly, the novice sharpens his plane blade and tries to plane some curly maple. Is the tearout the result of a less-than-sharp blade, an untuned plane, a low-quality plane, the wrong cutting angle, or just the gnarliness of the wood itself? How is he to know without being shown?"

I don't think this problem is solved by buying the "right" plane. I also think novices ought to work their way up to gnarly figured woods. Learn to plane well on straight grained well-behaved varieties. Oh, and learn to grab the scraper when nothing seems to work to tame tearout. ;-) If you can't handle it with a LN or a LV, a Norris infill or Marcou isn't likely to turn the trick either.

[Jim Koepke]

You say "Either the chisel cut wood well enough or it doesn't," but therein lies the dilemma. How is the novice to know what "well enough" means, without being shown?

Similarly, the novice sharpens his plane blade and tries to plane some curly maple. Is the tearout the result of a less-than-sharp blade, an untuned plane, a low-quality plane, the wrong cutting angle, or just the gnarliness of the wood itself? How is he to know without being shown?

A great way to find out is to attend a class. But for many of us, you don't learn until you've been through the process yourself dozens of times.

This, by the way, is why I always recommend that beginners buy the first hand plane from Lie-Nielsen or Veritas. It reduces the number of variables to a manageable figure.

Mark,
You do make good points here.
My only schooling in woodworking was a general shop class over 45 years ago.
I did not actually so any woodworking until about 20 years ago. That was not real quality work.
I have learned a lot since finding SMC. Having information on what a plane shaving should be with a low angle block plane on end grain has given me the target, all I needed was to work on the aim.

As I recall, George Wilson started out learning on his own, mostly driven by desire.

We often see someone say that super thin shavings coming out of a plane are useless. When one is trying to flatten a rough sawn board, this is true. When one wants to see how well they did at sharpening a blade, they are very helpful in making such a determination. Transparent shavings do not come from dull or ill sharpened blades.

When it comes to chisels, I love having way too many. A lot of mine could be considered junk. They were cheap and if I want to custom grind a bevel to see what happens, there is no reason to not give it a try.

Everyone does things in different ways, this is the beauty of having a forum for us to learn from each other's trials and experiences.

Yes, things can be a lot easier if a mentor is available or if we can start out with perfect out of the box tools. Often this is not an option. It really wasn't for me. My learning was almost exclusively from reading and doing. It may have taken me a little longer, but the memory will stay forever. That experience and memory is very useful when those perfect out of the box tools get dull and need a sharpening.

Our biggest mistake is being afraid to make a mistake.
As the shoe ad says, "just do it." As one learns from experience, the tools one has will do the job until one can acquire the tools to do the job better.

jim

[glenn bradley]

Amen!


ps: what kind of chisels should I buy?

;)

I just blew coffee all over my monitor :D.

[harry strasil]

From the cemetary where old Woodworkers are resting in peace looking down. the ones we are all in awe of their Craftsmanship and Work they left behind. "What's a dial indicator, what's is an 8000 grit stone, what's a microbevel, all these guys want to do is fussettle something.

[Larry Frank]

I have been reading this thread and another one on sharpening in the Neander Forum. They really start to define the different approaches of various wood workers. I got a chuckle out of the comments about the electron microscope and dial indicator. If we wanted a more pure Neanderthal Haven, we should probably eliminate all tools or advanced technology after a certain date. It is clear that such things as A2 tool steel are being widely used by everyone. However, without tools such as the electron microscope these things would not be available. There are several articles available on sharpening that show the effect of different sharpening media by using a scanning electron microscope. Yes, you can use your eyeball, but the electron microscope gives clear evidence. Does a Neander need a dial indicator? Probably not but if you want to know if you have a plane bottom flat, it is nice to use but not necessary.

Yes, I have used a scanning electron microscope and it can do things that you would be surprised at. You can see all of the fine scratches made by very fine sharpening stones as well as being able to understand what makes the A2 steel such an advantage over high carbon blades. To most, it only matters how well it produces an edge but to others, I want to know why.

What I have wasted a lot of time trying to say is that even the “Pure Neaders” in this forum are taking advantage of advanced technology. I appreciate the time that several posters have taken in explaining their sharpening techniques. While I might not want to take them as far as to get an Ultra Sharp edge, there is always something that I can take away from their techniques. I hope that these posters will not be discouraged by the some of the posts but will continue to provide their insight into the results that they have obtained. I will never be able to sharpen a tool by hand with old stones and get the same edge that I do with a jig. However, I want to become good (hopefully) at hand cutting a dovetail and not at hand sharpening a chisel.

[Sean Hughto]

Larry, I don't think any of us are luddites. And I certainly hope no one will hestitate to post on anything that they want to share. At least for me, I have no problem with folks who like to take it to the n'th degree. I started this thread only to let any newcomers know that the n'th degree issues should not be mistaken for threshold issues or hurdles one must overcome; they are a choice, not a necessity.

[harry strasil]

Right On, its what you do with what you have and the limits of your skill that counts.

[george wilson]

I am pretty much self trained,and what I know and have done are from years of trial and error. I never have obsessed over cutting tool angles. When I was young and poor,I actually went from a cheap sliicon carbide gray stone to a plain piece of paper to hone the edge finer. It took hours to get a real sharp edge on a 50 cent chisel. The old,cheap kind,stamped,bolster and all from a flat piece of steel,with a yellow plastic handle. I think just working at producing a sharp edge helped me a whole lot to do the work I have done.

There were no books in the 50'5 and 60's like there are now that I had access to,at least. So I just persisted my way along. No sharpening jigs either.

I had no effective way of measuring cutting tool edge angles. It can be done by working at it. New books are a big help,but it mostly takes personal persistance to become a good craftsman.

I tried to get a Summer job at a woodworking shop at 17,but no one would give me a break back then. I had to keep muddling along.

[John Keeton]

I tried to get a Summer job at a woodworking shop at 17,but no one would give me a break back then. I had to keep muddling along.George, that comment reminds me of all the stories of great artists, musicians, etc. that talk about their first attempts, and being told they just don't have what it takes.

Boy, if the folks that wouldn't give you the time of day back then, could see the wealth of masterpieces you have produced - wonder if they would kick themselves??!!!??

[Johnny Kleso]

Sean Hughto Said:
"Hand tool woodworking does not require the tools and tolerances of aerospace engineering"

Being a Union Member of the Machinist and Aerospace Workers Union I say thats false......
200 years ago they did not use digital calipers but they still arrived high tolerances by eye, feel and gauges to work to 1/128" (.007) or more..

Some things you said maybe true but this is false...
Do you think furniture is higer quality now or then??????????

[Sean Hughto]

Hey, I'm not an aerospace engineer, but I assume, I guess incorrectly, that when one is building satellites, missles, space shuttles or fighter jets, the tolerances, materials, and tools are uber fine. But hey, if you say that a few thousands one way or the other ain't gonna bring down a satellite, I stand corrected.

And I didn't say the results of using woodworking tools isn't tight, I said the tools don't have to be high end or tricked out to the n'th degree to get you there.

As far as the quality of furniture 200 years ago versus now, you'll need to define quality for me before I can answer. Unless you have some narrow definition, I'm pretty sure the answer is going to be that great stuff was created in both periods.

[David Keller NC]

"I will never be able to sharpen a tool by hand with old stones and get the same edge that I do with a jig. However, I want to become good (hopefully) at hand cutting a dovetail and not at hand sharpening a chisel."

I'm betting that you will surprise yourself over a period of time, assuming you try a few times to sharpen a blade by hand. This was a surprise to me - I've a Veritas Mk II jig and a bunch of Tormek jigs that I used to use regularly and are now gathering dust. In my case, what made the difference was carving tools - many of these simply can't be effectively sharpened with a jig (though many manufacturers are trying to change that).

I suspect your last point is simply that you don't wish to get into tiny, subtle nuances of methods to produce the finest edge - your time is better spent learning the techniques of producing traditional joinery. That's a wise move, and an ultra sharp chisel will not improve one's dovetails if one can't handle a dovetail saw. However, it is unlikely that one will be able to produce accurate, tight fitting dovetails with a dull, or even moderately dull, chisel. Such a chisel will be fine for clearing the majority of the waste, but its shortcomings will be fairly obvious when one needs to make that final, accurate cut on the baseline - what Charlesworth describes as the "penultimate" cut.

[Sean Hughto]

I too found carving tools pushed me into developing better hand sharpening skills. Drawknives and other oddities too. I still like simple eclipse or similar jigs for chisels and plane irons as it takes so little time to pop them in and makes the process sure fire.

I agree, of course, that dull chisels aren't much good for anything, but would add (though you might have been saying this too?) that there is a range of sharpness that is quite adequate. The sharper the chisel, the more sure and pleasurable the process is, but even a moderately sharp chisel will get the job done in most cases. For reference, I have a few LN chisels. New and untouched, they are sort of barely sharp enough. I could make dovetails with them, but they get ever so much better after the backside is flattened and polished a bit and the bevel likewise honed to a polish.

[David Keller NC]

"For reference, I have a few LN chisels. New and untouched, they are sort of barely sharp enough. I could make dovetails with them, but they get ever so much better after the backside is flattened and polished a bit and the bevel likewise honed to a polish."

Agreed - I'd consider the factory condition of LN (and LV, for that matter) blades and chisels to be just barely adequate to "unacceptable" depending on the wood that was in use. Ironically, the soft, easily worked eastern white pine would be the "unacceptably dull" part, while poplar, mahogany and others would be "just barely adequate".

But - and I think this is what you're getting at, a plane blade doesn't have to be way past ridiculously sharp to work well, and neither does a mortising chisel. In contrast, I generally spend every concievable effort to keep the carving tools and paring chisels way beyond razor sharp, because it seems like the fall off in performance is much more noticeable.

At the end of the day, though, if one is spending more time trying to get the perfect edge on something (beyond the initial honing, of course) than putting the tool to wood, something's wrong. Either with the tool or the person using it.:D

[george wilson]

Actually,John,I was fully qualified to do the work at that woodworking shop even at 17. I think they could have at least given me a trial. The shop teacher at my high school was using me as a co-teacher by then.I would have worked without pay for a while to prove myself. I just wish today that I could find a decent young person to train. It seems like these days they are handed everything at home. I can't even find a reliable boy to mow my grass.

[Dan O'Sullivan]

Mark
We don't have the Master looking over the shoulder picture these days but we have photography. We have photography that we can share to advance the skills of budding woodworkers. At times it seems like we are more focused on the plane sole than the panel surface? It would be nice to see more photos of the results of shapening techniques to pursuade others towards a technique.. maybe?

[Will Blick]

> When you say "there's no point in going too far" the novice doesn't really get much from it. Okay, so tell me what's too far? Is Grizzly too far? Are Lie Nielsen planes too far? How sharp is sharp enough?


Mark, thanks for being the voice of reason here. This statement is truly why all these discussions are moot. Because there is rarely common grounds on a single application of ww tools, the woods being used, the expectations of final product, the budget, etc. etc. It's the mix of these factors, combined with the style you prefer to work in (for example, planes vs. sanding) .... it's only after you assess all this, can you answer the question, "how far" is far enough. The basis of most ww forums is, anything short of refurbed 100 year old planes is a waste of money, and anyone that does anything more is stupid, cause no one did more than this 100 years ago.... (I am generalizing the overwhelming theme that often surfaces here, there is some rare exceptions, as this post demonstrated)


Some people have technical backgrounds, and they like to solve problems. In my case, I ran into a few brick walls in planing about a year into my new found love for Neander....... I could not shave some burls, end grain and certain alternating grained woods. I love a nice smooth plane finish, I do get satisfaction from it. So, as I do in my day job, I research and engineer solutions to problems.... I was convinced blade sharpness was the simplest solution.... I had to futz around with a few products to get there, but all the problems were solved. So what seems normal to me.... i.e. try to complete a task, but you have a problem, so you find a solution..... for other people, as per my previous post on sharpening, they are flat out offended by such an approach. Its remarkable.... it borders on the flames that get tossed around when someone says why their Festool drill is so amazing. They better run for digital cover, or they could be injured...


Yet, when someone pulls up in a $150k Benz, no one says, what the hell do you need that kind of precision for? Why did you over pay so much for a car? You could have bought a Chevy which would get you to point A to B just as well.... A Toyota gets way better gas mileage vs. that hog, etc. These are the responses I think many ww flame throwers would throw at such a situation. But in the real world, face to face, you rarely here this....


So I guess, my position, you do whats required to complete the task. How far? Far enough to complete the task and make you or your client happy. I know I am in the minority here... but to me, its quite simple....


As for the ol' school approach. In my line of engineering, I have challenged many 50 - 100 year old methods.... and most often, I win out... yeah, sometimes you gotta pry some teeth to convince someone of the obvious (cause they can't let go of the past).... So just because something has been done a certain way for a 100 years, doesn't make it optimum solution, easiest way to work, best resultant outcome of the end product, most efficient way to work, etc. Instead, the common theme on ww forums, is.....It's my way, or the highway.


I am no youngster myself.... and when I hear young engineers provide new found solutions to problems, I encourage them for thinking outside the box, this is how progress is made in life. It's OK to challenge existing methods... so age is not always the factor which forces people to attack anything new, different or innovative....


Larry, I fully support your comments on the electron microscope.... its modern tools such as this, that leads to new products that are more effective. As you suggest, without seeing the effects stones have on edges, stone makers would not be able to advance their product lines. The breakthrough in stones is a result of this.... does this mean an avg. ww who bought a few tools at the BORG will need an electron microscope? Heck no, but on a ww forum, you will find at least a handful of people that will twist what was written to suggest such.


Anyway, this won't be the last of these "too much precision is not required in ww" posts, they appear every few months in all ww forums. In this case, it was obvious the OP had good intentions, i.e. to prevent newcomers from being intimidated, which is fine.... but its nice to keep things in perspective....

[Sean Hughto]

Will, your post is kind of offensive in that you responded to things that you either imagined or have read elsewhere rather than what you actually read in this thread. You imply that others posting here are asserting these offensive small-minded things. It is not the case.

No one said anything about not buying anything other than 100 year old planes.

No one suggetsed that one size fits all.

No one said precision and fineness were unworthy goals

No one said anything like: "it's my way or the highway."

The aim of the post was NOT to criticize people for TOO MUCH PRECISION, but to let newcomers know that good results for basic operations do not typically require some particular tool or some ULTRA PRECISE maintenance or set up of that tool.

For any newcomers reading along, one of the better down to earth introductions to handtools is Aldren Watson's "Handtools, their ways and workings." Mr. Watson does a great job of presenting a wide array of handtools and how they are used in a very simple way. I'm pretty sure its available on Amazon and likely form most any other bookseller.

[Billy Chambless]

For any newcomers reading along, one of the better down to earth introductions to handtools is Aldren Watson's "Handtools, their ways and workings." Mr. Watson does a great job of presenting a wide array of handtools and how they are used in a very simple way. I'm pretty sure its available on Amazon and likely form most any other bookseller.

Seconded. That's one of my favorites -- and I have a pile of woodworking books. ;)

[Will Blick]

> No one said anything about not buying anything other than 100 year old planes.

Did you read this I wrote right after that comment?
"(I am generalizing the overwhelming theme that often surfaces here, there is some rare exceptions, as this post demonstrated)"



>No one said anything like: "it's my way or the highway."

Did you read this verbiage before that quote?
"Instead, the "common theme on ww forums", is.....It's my way, or the highway."



> The aim of the post was NOT to criticize people for TOO MUCH PRECISION, but to let newcomers know that good results for basic operations do not typically require some particular tool or some ULTRA PRECISE maintenance or set up of that tool.

Did you read my last sentence in my post?
" it was obvious the OP had good intentions, i.e. to prevent newcomers from being intimidated, which is fine...."




> No one said precision and fineness were unworthy goals

A few cut n pastes from just this one thread....

#6 Something always peculiar to me was the almost obsessiveness of some people in regards to the precision flatness of their tabletop or jointer being .001" out of level, when the wood can move that much each day on its own. It feels to me like someone counting the number of leaves on the tree when all I really want to know is if it provides some shade. I just can't see the functionality of that level of precision in regards to woodworking.


#8 Most professionals would laugh at these discussions that go on. (referring to precision)


#9 If you keep this up you will have people believing you can actually build nice furniture pieces without a aeronautics degree and a electron microscope to look at the cutting edges of your planes.

From my previous thread on sharpening wisdom, which I had referenced....

#3 you have a very expensive,complex system for sharpening that is not necessary.

#8 We don't really need a bench full of crutches. I do not consider buying a bunch of crutches as learning. None of the other master craftsmen I worked with ever used anything but simple stones and skill.


Anyway, I guess two people can read the same thing, and draw different conclusions.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Sean

I think that your original post in this thread is on the money ... but it is probably one that is best understood from a distance, that is, when one has developed the ability to see the Big Picture. Developing this ability comes from experience, generally accumulated over several years.

Imagine that all the woodworking tools in the world could be placed in one long line. The one side would start with all those that make shaping as simple as possible, such as feeding in a board at one end of a machine and receiving the finished article at the other (e.g. a thickness planer). At the other end of the spectrum would be those tools that have the widest variety of set up modes, the end of the line being handtools (e.g. a chisel guided by the hand).

So at the one end of the spectrum we might expect machines that only offer a limited range of shapes but should be simple to use (just dial them in), while the other end are tools offer many choices (but necessitating an increasing degree of hand skill).

As we travel along the woodworking path we decide where we are aiming to be on this spectrum. I must emphasise that I am not suggesting that there is only one best way or one best path - for some it will never be important to travel a different path and they may be satisfied with this. For others new path options may open up as they seek more understanding and skills. If only a singular path is travelled, clearly one will risk ending up tunnel visioned. That is obvious.

Zooming in, the choosing of tools is a similar path. Those new to a path will not understand the options and the subtle issues that lie before them. How can they? So they depend on what they hear and read on forums such as this. Unfortunately often well-meaning advice is offered by those with either limited experience of problem-solving, or limited experience of the tools available. Generally we hear what works for one, or the experience of one person with a limited exposure to similar tools.

LN are best! LV are best! Vintage Stanley is best!

Who really knows? … the guy who has only used Vintage Stanley is not in a position to evaluate any other tools. On the other hand, that person’s skill and technique is something we all want to know about. Assuming that the LNs and the LVs of this world might make certain tasks easier than their Stanley counterparts and, thereby reduce the need for some skill development (I say this as a statement of relativeness), then it is important to recognise that reverse is also true …. added skill may raise a Stanley to the level of a LN and LV.

None of the above must be interpreted as a value judgement about style of woodworking or choice of tools. Personally I prefer handtools over power tools because I enjoy their tactile involvement with the wood and I enjoy developing hand skills. I enjoy tools with bling as much as I enjoy those without – but there is certainly an extra pleasure in using beautiful tools.

At the end of the day it is difficult to say whether more pleasure comes from the path travelled or the destination reached. The mileage of others is expected to vary.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Wilbur Pan]

Will, your post is kind of offensive in that you responded to things that you either imagined or have read elsewhere rather than what you actually read in this thread. You imply that others posting here are asserting these offensive small-minded things. It is not the case.

To be fair, Sean, in your first post you included this statement:


3. While we all love fine tools, at a certain point of quality, more refinement or different styles become more about looks and what you are used to than issues that actually affect performance.

I think that a reasonable interpretation of this is that you've determined that there is some line beyond which a woodworker becomes more interested in what his tool is doing and not how the use of the tool affects the workpiece. The problem with this is that even if you accept the premise of this statement, one woodworker's line is not the same as another woodworker's line. And since there is a difference in where our individual lines are, a reasonable conclusion from your statement above is that some woodworkers are caring more about looks rather than performance, which is a sentiment that many would not take kindly to if their line happens to be beyond where your line is -- especially if those folks have determined that they can tell a difference in tool performance up to their own personal line.

It's good to know that one might not need "some particular tool or some ULTRA PRECISE maintenance or set up of that tool." Fine. Where these discussions get into trouble is trying to convey when one wanders into that "ULTRA PRECISE" realm. Is it sharpening your plane blade or chisel on a 4000 grit waterstone? 8000 grit? 15000 grit? Is it tweaking your plane so that the sole is flat within 0.01"? 0.005"? 0.001"? Different woodworkers will make different choices for these questions, but for those woodworkers who decide on 15000 grit and 0.001", I'm sure for the most part that they feel that those choices make a worthwhile difference in the performance of their tool, just as those who decide on 8000 grit and 0.005" feel like going past that point isn't worthwhile.

The curious thing to me is that there seem to be certain aspects of tool setup that are always targeted in these sorts of discussions. As mentioned above, the final grit or step used for sharpening and plane sole flatness seem to be common fodder for these discussions. There are other aspects of tool setup, however, that seem to avoid this controversy. For example, I can't ever remember anyone saying something along the lines of, "If you change the bevel angle on the blade of a low angle jack plane so that it's higher than 55º, you're going too far." with the same sense of conviction that an 8000 grit waterstone is good enough and going beyond that in sharpening is wasting time.

The other thing is that our feelings towards these matters changes along with our accumulated experience in woodworking. This is true for many other activities that rely on the accumulation of skills as well. There's a Chinese saying that sums this up quite nicely. It goes:

Before I studied martial arts, a kick was just a kick.
When I started studying martial arts, I saw that a kick was a thing of sublime and eternal beauty.
When I mastered martial arts, a kick was just a kick again.
(This quote is often attributed to Bruce Lee, but it originated before him.)

This probably explains the attitude of many experienced woodworkers to the the aspects of woodworking that others are still exploring and very interested in understanding.

Anyway, Sean, I completely agree with points #1, 2, and 4 in your original post. It's only #3 that I think is a bit problematic.

[Dwain Lambrigger]

A bad craftsman blames his tool, but what kind of craftsman blames his sharpening technique?

[Will Blick]

Thanks Wilbur.... I left out Seans original quote, in hopes to maintain civility, (even though Sean was very professional in his response, I feared it escalating) I was surprised he took the position he did against me, considering his #3 in the OP.

Derek, as usual, Nutz-On.... but only someone with your wisdom could present it so eloquently.... nice prose, great post...

Just like the Neanders decided to create a Sticky for hand tool issues for newbs.... (as the same newb question surface every month) I think all SMC forums should have a Stickies relating to this issue of precision, tool cost, what's required, etc. It has been covered ad nauseam through the years. Not just on SMC, but nearly all ww forums, except PRO forums, where people accept others desire for better work, better tools, improved techniques, etc.

[jerry nazard]

Not just on SMC, but nearly all ww forums, except PRO forums, where people accept others desire for better work, better tools, improved techniques, etc.

Will,

Could you be more specific RE: "PRO" forums? I am curious. Thanks!

-Jerry

[Sean Hughto]

Wilbur, I appreciate your thoughtful response. I think we may be looking at the same coin from different sides. I said: "at a certain point of quality, more refinement or different styles become more about looks or what you are used to than issues that actually affect performance." You interpret this as me implying "that there is some line beyond which a woodworker becomes more interested in what his tool is doing and not how the use of the tool affects the workpiece."

Once again, I was not talking about advanced woodworkers going too far, I was talking about how far newcomers need to go. Perhaps I should have said it this way: Newbies, you are better served asking what tools to avoid, than worrying over exactly which quality tool to purchase; you can indeed make a mistake in buying a 1980 era Stanley jack, but you are not likely to have significant regrets if you buy the LN 5 versus the LV 5. That was the point I was trying (not very well apparently) to make. I suppose at some level I was also trying to say that while Norris infills are sure sweet, and I'd love to own a stable full, you don't have to wait to afford one before you can plane a board. Similarly, while mirrored razor sharp tools are fantastic to work with, you don't have to wait until you can achieve this to make dovetails or mortise and tenons. I wasn't trying to prescribe a particular grit that one must go up, but no farther. Rather, I was saying that as a general matter, getting to what you personally will find is good enough to get started making shavings is not that daunting.

[Jim Koepke]

Wilbur, I appreciate your thoughtful response. I think we may be looking at the same coin from different sides. I said: "at a certain point of quality, more refinement or different styles become more about looks or what you are used to than issues that actually affect performance." You interpret this as me implying "that there is some line beyond which a woodworker becomes more interested in what his tool is doing and not how the use of the tool affects the workpiece."


This is a clear example of how different people can look at the same sentence and see different meanings. When I saw, "at a certain point of quality, more refinement or different styles become more about looks or what you are used to than issues that actually affect performance." My thoughts were of all my different chisels of the same size. For some reason, the look and feel of the Buck Brothers chisel seems "better" to me, even though the Witherby chisels do the job almost exactly the same.

When it comes to smoothing planes it comes down to whether to use a #3, #4 or a #4-1/2. usually it is the one with the most recently sharpened blade. Then it is the plane it self. Besides many other reasons, I do like the look of the curved sided Bailey over the square sided Bedrock or LNs. I do not think I could convince anyone the Bailey is a better made plane than either of them. Other planes from the same era are also great users. It is in many cases more practical for some to buy a new LN due to the amount of work that may be needed just to get an old Bailey into decent shape. Once one has fettled a few old planes, then it gets easy.

It then gets down to how much is enough and is their a point of too much. Many of my old planes have not received a new coat of paint. It sure does make them look and feel nicer. Though the shavings have not yet been improved by a paint job, though the pleasure of making them has.

So if what one does with their tools feels right to them, then as long as no one gets hurt, it probably is.

jim

[george wilson]

With all due respect, I fail to see what the price of a car has to do with learning basic woodworking skills. A fancy car has to do with luxury,not precision. You
have no basis for comparison.

I fail to see how buying every honing guide out there constitutes thinking out of the box.

I use modern woodworking and metal working equipment every day. That is called letting go of the past. Unless the bits are carbide,I freehand sharpen them,drill bits too.

[harry strasil]

Most didn't learn like we did George, start in make mistakes, keep going till the mistakes are fewer, adapt, overcome, improvise, just do it, till you get the hang of it, then keep improving by doing the next project better than the last and so on.

I liked pocket knives as a kid, always had 5 or 6 in my pocket, they were always sharp enough to shave with, all the farmers and neighbors and such had me sharpening stuff when I was 8 or 9 years old. used an old worn out stone of my grandfathers, that was the poster child for sway back.

[harry strasil]

WWing is like Smithing, you learn by doing.

[Richard Dooling]

It then gets down to how much is enough and is their a point of too much. Many of my old planes have not received a new coat of paint. It sure does make them look and feel nicer. Though the shavings have not yet been improved by a paint job, though the pleasure of making them has.

jim

Funny, mine always cut better after painting and my truck drives smoother after it's washed.

Jeez what a post - and this is one of the more civil forums out there!


.

[Will Blick]

> I fail to see how buying every honing guide out there constitutes thinking out of the box.


George, if you re read what I wrote, you will find, I never suggested buying all the honing guides constitutes "thinking outside the box".... OK?

The analogy about the $150k Benz, since you missed it was.... a Benz is a luxury car, a higher than average precisioned vehicle, tighter tolerances vs. an avg. car. The same can be true with tools and accessories, some tools are just more luxurious, some have a more modern approach to complete a task, etc. Are they mandatory to creating good ww projects? Heck no, but you don't need a Benz to to to the grocery store either, often a bike will suffice. But you don't hear people attacking Benz owners with all the reasons why its foolish to own one... so I feel my comparison basis was very sensible.

I notice most of your comments are directed towards me in this thread, is that just a coincidence?



> Jeez what a post - and this is one of the more civil forums out there!


Well said Rich..... this subject is on par with the Festool vs. the rest of the power tools threads.... as Derek mentioned, this subject sure raises the feathers of many ww's. When I read a thread about how someone does something in ww, I never feel compelled to attack that persons style of work...whether its using too few tools, too many tools, not the perfect tool, innefficient use of tools, too many sharpening accessories, using a different learning approach, etc. But, it appears others can not stop themselves from doing the same..... IMO, that's how these threads move in undesirable directions..... it's just human nature.... and it only takes one person to spark the fire...

[James Scheffler]

>
The analogy about the $150k Benz, since you missed it was.... a Benz is a luxury car, a higher than average precisioned vehicle, tighter tolerances vs. an avg. car. The same can be true with tools and accessories, some tools are just more luxurious, some have a more modern approach to complete a task, etc. Are they mandatory to creating good ww projects? Heck no, but you don't need a Benz to to to the grocery store either, often a bike will suffice. But you don't hear people attacking Benz owners with all the reasons why its foolish to own one... so I feel my comparison basis was very sensible.



I can't argue with anything else you've said, but if I knew someone who was contemplating buying a $150k Mercedes (or even a $75k one), I would tell them it's foolish and a waste of money. But that's just me....

It's interesting that you get luxury and performance, but not reliability. I knew someone whose stupid little headlight wiper/washers died within the first year, and had some other small issues. But the real bummer was how the whole car would just quit at random times due to an electrical system problem.

At the time, I didn't give the owner a piece of my mind about buying the thing. You see, the owner was my girlfriend's mother, and I was hoping she would let me drive it! :D Now, I'm older, wiser (at least I hope so), and I married someone else....

Jim

[Will Blick]

Two points.... first, as you mentioned, you did not share your thoughts, you kept them to yourself....that was my point. But on a ww forum, people feel free to vocalize those same thoughts... they have no reservations on unloading their opinions on others....

and secondly, not that it has any relevance to hand tools....

> It's interesting that you get luxury and performance, but not reliability.

My friend paid $350k for a new Bentley last year.... driving around town, after a few months, it died, engine gave out, 2k miles. It had to sit there till a flatbed could get it.... could not be repaired in USA, had to go back to Euro Bently.

Furious was an understatement.... but Bently came through and gave her another new one which had additional $50k in extra options at no cost to her. So at least Bently honored their reputation.... this is a glaring example of what you wrote above....hence why I love my Toyota, oil n gas is all it needs, truly remarkable how reliability and cost don't always go hand in hand. My theory is.... when you build a million engines, you discover all the quirks quickly, and next years models fixes those quirks.... Bently builds a few hundred a year, it takes a lot longer for the quirks to surface....

[george wilson]

Will,if you will stop quoting me,I will stop replying to you. And,mis quoting me at that. I said most professionals would laugh at the wrigamorole some go to to simply sharpen a tool. I did not mean they would laugh at the quest for precision. A competent woodworker,or machinist develops the skills to sharpen for precision without hundreds of dollars worth of jigs. My work is very precise. And,you really need to get your luxury car thing sorted out. It has NADA to do with sharpening your tools. Give it up. That dog ain't going to hunt!!!

I have an idea: Some of you older guys,or military buffs may remember that some bayonets had a scabbard with built in sharpening stones.All you had to do was jam the bayonet in and out till it was sharpened. Now,if some Creeker could just invent a plane that came with such a holster,the whole issue would be resolved.

Harry,I'm assigning you this task because you like to invent ways to do things.:)

[michael osadchuk]

I read the original post expressing concern that newcomers to this and other hand tool forums on internet will be discouraged and confused by seeing a lot of discussion turning on 'minutia' and what the o.p. later called nth degree refinements rather that newcomer barrier to gaining initial positive experiences.

It's one of the ironies of how the online community works that I suspect none of the replies come from complete neanderthal newbies, so we really don't know what the intended primary audience thinks of the last four pages of replies.

What I would like to suggest is that newbies do get "meaningful replies and even "lurkers" learn good stuff here.

I think the process of people responding to newbie queries self-corrects extreme responses and generates a reasoned range of advice of the amateur woodworking community ..... it may be "subjective" but it's not idosyncratic and it is based on a collective experience, not sales hype, etc.
For example the question of "which first three handplanes should I buy?" typically does not get replies to either buy a $2500 custom made infill or pick up a $25 no. 4 from a discount importer from China/India's lowest quality manufacturing lines but if those responses did surface there would be a pretty massive expression of reservations from others. Instead what we typically see is a discussion of trade offs of buying pricer/high quality Lee Valley or Lie Nielsons etc. vs. buying "fettled" older planes from reputable fellow members of the amateur community or buying older planes at auctions/yard sales with the caution about the learning curve on rehabilitating such planes, etc. And there would be a fair degree of consensus around the trade offs of money, existing skills, access to hands on help or ability to educate oneself via reading and the online community. And I think the newbie would soon learn how to sort thru such advice and make decisions about what better suits them.

The original poster's second point was a criticism that "breakthroughs and epiphanies in woodworking are rarely found in minutia" (I looked up 'minutia': minor details/trifles) and one of the examples, such as not worrying about 19tpi/at a rake angle of blah is better than 15 tpi/at same rake angle, I assume, would find agreement in the woodworking community as not a critical issue.
But I want to say - and not in opposition to the o.p. - that when we are stumped by a problem, the breakthrough often is in a trivial detail of preparation/holding the tool, etc. ..... at the point you are stumped it's not an Nth degree piece of exotic, irrelevant information but a practical breakthrough solution. I have confidence that a newbie coming across a discussion on a more advanced issue they have not yet encountered, say planing wild grain hardwood, will not be discouraged or confused because there are futher challenges but will say this is not relevant to me yet and know that there are tentative solutions to problems not yet faced. One of the criticisms I read about FineWoodworking's print magazine is there is too much focus on newbie issues; well, the online woodworking forums has unlimited 'page' space and isn't/shouldn't be bound by addressing a particular skill level.

I hope my comments are not coming across as criticism of the original poster but support for the advice and encouragement that I think newbies do find on such online woodworking forums. And I agree with the o.p. that newbies can help by asking well posed questions and I believe that it is ok to sometimes also suggest use the search tool to read existing threads on "well worn" topics and then come back with a more focussed query of what is still unresolved in their mind. I think newcomers are able sort through the answers to "see the community consensus or reasonable range of suggestions", follow up leads to sticky notes/faqs, just like I think most of us did.

thanks
michael

[Will Blick]

George, if you look back at all your posts, I never responded to you, like you have done to me.... for some unknown reason, you needed to pick a bone with me, that was obvious from the start. You could have bowed out gracefully as you are the one who started this....but you continue... and excuse me, I need to defend myself against your inability to comprehend what I write.

If I wanted to make a car analogy, that is my right. If you don't like the analogy, don't read it, or ignore it, is that so hard George? I felt it has merit, you didn't, so ignore it. But please don't start instructing me what is allowable for me to write.... are you my boss?

George, is it too much to ask..... find someone else to pick on now, I had my fair share of "George bashing" for the week, OK? This is the 2nd thread you went after me... it's time to grow up....


Also, thanks to all the people who reply to me off list, I appreciate the sympathy and support.... its nice to see fellow ww's recognize when someone is being unfairly bashed. And I understand why they don't want to post in the thread....the fear of being "next"... I fully appreciate this. I don't mind defending myself, but I don't join ww forums for such either... The Creek has been very well moderated to prevent this type of banter in the past... but.....oh well...

[Brian Ashton]

Well said Rich..... this subject is on par with the Festool vs. the rest of the power tools threads.... as Derek mentioned, this subject sure raises the feathers of many ww's. When I read a thread about how someone does something in ww, I never feel compelled to attack that persons style of work...whether its using too few tools, too many tools, not the perfect tool, innefficient use of tools, too many sharpening accessories, using a different learning approach, etc. But, it appears others can not stop themselves from doing the same..... IMO, that's how these threads move in undesirable directions..... it's just human nature.... and it only takes one person to spark the fire...

I've been participating in online forums since the early 90's. I've noticed an evolution taking place that appears to be compounding rapidly where people seem to have a "need" to be heard for all the wrong reasons. In the ww forum I used to participate in down here the need to express ones self often got very aggressive (for lack of a better word) usually to the detriment of the thread but the moderators felt "censoring" it was an evil never to be given into. People are rapidly forgetting that these sorts of places are suppose to be where an exchange of information and or opinions can take place in hopes that one can increase theirs and others knowledge. The key word being exchange.

I'd say this forum is by far the best quality ww forum going. Things can get enthusiastic but there's a very refreshing civility here lacking in other forums.

[John Keeton]

Brian and Michael, some good observations. I come to SMC for the comaraderie and great knowledge base that is here. Like most here, my interests are limited to those areas in which I explore my hobby.

I do recognize, however, that everyone here is unique. In life generally, it seems that machinists, engineers, and similarly educated and trained individuals, seem to enjoy the precision with which tasks can be accomplished - a quite natural trait.

Some enjoy simply the feel and sound of a tool against wood - a rather euphoric experience, BTW!

Some enjoy the designing of a piece and go to great lengths to think through that process - I find myself there sometimes.

But in the end, most of us just enjoy being in the shop - no matter what we are doing! Our seclusive nature.

It would seem that if those differences could be understood and tolerated better by all, we would not encounter these threads.

I don't normally participate in them, and hesitated to post again here. But, in every instance, I have found the participants to be knowledgeable and informed - and, possessing a significant level of information that could be valuable to the group. It is unfortunate that some threads turn combative. Often, one or more of the participants are the same, and this is probably attributed to the strength of their convictions regarding the issue at hand, and the need to publicly enforce those convictions.

If one harkens back to the school yard fights, all the observers formed a circle and shouted encouragement to both participants. Though I no doubt engaged in that behavior, it is apparent the fight would have ended much quicker were it not for the onlookers - thus, the need to "win" publicly.

So, perhaps in the future when these sort of exchanges fire up, it would be best if the rest of us simply went on to the more informative threads, and left the combatants to their own embroilment. Perhaps after all is said and done, they each can walk away with the impression they won!!

And, if I have fired up the need to respond to this post, have at it. I will be on another thread trying to learn something.

[Jack Clark]

This link is an interesting read and further perspective on all the discussion above.

http://www.bridgecitytools.com/blog/category/the-woodworking-taliban/

Scroll down to the article titled: Please Meet the "Woodworking Taliban", April 30 2008.

[Johnny Kleso]

Hey, I'm not an aerospace engineer, but I assume, I guess incorrectly, that when one is building satellites, missles, space shuttles or fighter jets, the tolerances, materials, and tools are uber fine. But hey, if you say that a few thousands one way or the other ain't gonna bring down a satellite, I stand corrected.

And I didn't say the results of using woodworking tools isn't tight, I said the tools don't have to be high end or tricked out to the n'th degree to get you there.

As far as the quality of furniture 200 years ago versus now, you'll need to define quality for me before I can answer. Unless you have some narrow definition, I'm pretty sure the answer is going to be that great stuff was created in both periods.

if you say that a few thousands one way or the other ain't gonna bring down a satellite

Like everything the tolerance of error depends on what your making......
Most newbies what every part to be perfect, this is a waiste of time that I think everyone does when green, with experience you learn to spend your time on the details that matter and not waisting efforts on insugnificant details...

And I didn't say the results of using woodworking tools isn't tight, I said the tools don't have to be high end or tricked out to the n'th degree to get you there.

Your correct: you did NOT say that in the post nor did I imply that as I only own two LN planes a #140 and #93 vs 100+ Stanley and old wooden planes.... They dont need to be expensive but they do need to be sharpen and adjusted corectly like all high end tools come out of the box so if you dont have the skill and have the cash this is a newbies best option.........

As far as the quality of furniture 200 years ago versus now, you'll need to define quality for me before I can answer. Unless you have some narrow definition, I'm pretty sure the answer is going to be that great stuff was created in both periods

I was going to post the what quality is since question ask me to define it but but I'll ask you a question.......

Would you rather have a average quality bedroom set from Sears made in the 1920's or one made today??????

I am taking about furniture in general not a high end maker vs high end maker... I am taking glue and staples vs glue and dovetail construction.....

The way items are made a at a middle of the road everyday store not Sam Maloof vs Thos. Chippendale

[Will Blick]

Thanks for the ww Taliban link, I recall reading that when it was posted....beyond hilarious, but Nutz-on as it relates to this thread. A few parts of the woodworking taliban article that are perfectly fitting for this thread are below, I realize not everyone will want to go read the blog...

>
wood·work·ing /ˈwʊdˌwɜrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngkɪŋ/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[woohttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngd-wur-king] Tal·i·ban [tal-uh-ban]
-noun
1. A small, loosely organized, and wildly dispersed group of individuals (including homo erectus and descendants of the Huns) who (by virtue of a personality flaw) collectively preach, primarily via internet forums, a singular and myopic vision of woodworking exactly as it occurred between the years of 1659 BC to 84AD, which of course is the end of Ancient Times. (Modern Times begin with the death of the first horse [her name was Apricot] which correspondingly began a 1500 year reign of hide glue.)


The WT have a set of unwritten RULES that only they understand. Never to be concerned with anything but THEIR technique, their always-unsolicited-opinions are NEVER to be questioned. I dare you to mention proportion, harmony, texture, grace or anything that has to do with the appearance of SOMETHING.


End quote




It's nice to see I am not the only one that has been attacked by the WT ! But John Economski did a much better job of articulating this type of person which seems to evnetually invade every ww forum sooner or later... its just a question of time....

[Sean Hughto]

Well, I apologize for bringing any of this up. Believe it or not, I didn't think I was saying anything controversial at all in my original post. I wasn't trying to set limits on anyone or dictate acceptable woodworking practices. Instead, I thought I was merely reassuring beginners that while the details and choices can seem overwhelming, you can relax and have success without worrying too much about those choices and details at the start. It seemed like a rather unremarkable proposition.

I've seen plenty of beginners come around and seem worried about details that in the scheme of things, are not big deal (at least for those getting started). Perhaps I misread them, and they weren't really worried at all, but rather just like to delve into such details. If so, my apologies; please enjoy the fine points of tool purchase decisions and set up nuances.

As for the tone of things on this thread, it all seems pretty tame to me. There have been no significant flames or ad hominem attacks. Disagreement is not necessarily disrespect. I think beginners are well served to hear multiple perpectives.

Off to the shop.

[george wilson]

Now,Will,if you are going to resort to telling me,or anyone to grow up,that will not do you a lot of good. I have not resorted to calling you names,or making personal attacks like that. If you've resorted to that,it means you have run out of ideas. You really do need to re- read your own posts,where you quoted me 3 or 4 times. You play with your toys however you see fit,o.k.? :) I will concentrate on making nice things. Never buy any carving tools,scorps,or spokeshaves. I don't think all those jigs can handle those.

Curious how 2 types of threads,like Saw Stop,and sharpening discussions get complicated.

[Richard Dooling]

Pins first or tails first? :eek: :mad: :o

.

[harry strasil]

Just to clear things up. >:) :D

1. Material Selection.

2. Dimensioning.

3. Layout.

4. Then Tails or Pins.

[Billy Chambless]

Pins first or tails first? :eek: :mad: :o

.


I cut the tails first, using a laser-guided CNC router, then mark the pins by spraying black Krylon through the tails. I cut the pins (very carefully) with a broadaxe then assemble, filling the gaps with T-88.

But I won't judge other people for using incorrect methods.




;)

[Will Blick]

George, do you really feel, its your place to tell me what analogies I can make? What I can write, and, not write? You conveniently avoid these references I mention.

> Curious how 2 types of threads,like Saw Stop,and sharpening discussions get complicated.

The ww Taliban post above explains this in detail, you may want to re read that post.... then compare it, to your posts. The author of the ww Taliban knows your type all too well.... I hope this answers the question you posed.

[Will Blick]

>I will concentrate on making nice things. Never buy any carving tools,scorps,or spokeshaves. I don't think all those jigs can handle those.


And while doing so George, you will not hear any criticism from me over your style or tools. I can assure you of this, you have my guarantee.


OTOH, you have motivated me to buy more sharpening accessories, flattening plates, spoke shaves, jigs, etc. And I might not make any more finished pieces....I might concentrate on sharpening technique and focus my efforts on writing a book on the subject. The title will be something like.... "Sharpening ww tools in the modern era".... What do you think?


Remarkably, there is room for both of us on this planet, I know that is a tough pill for you to swallow.... I will be sure to report all the new modern accessories I acquire. So be sure to keep checking the forum, as I understand your strong desire to know.

[Sean Hughto]

Hey, Will, perhaps we could start a poll:

"If you could spend a day in the shop with George Wilson or Will Blick, who would you choose?"

Wonder how that would turn out? :rolleyes:

And I must say, I'm really surprised that someone who specailaizes in selling super expensive pimped out tools resents folks who mention that simpler tools will do. Oh wait, no I'm not. Yeah, I guess I pretty much understand why he would want to make them into caricatures and call them by the name of the enemy we are currently at war with in Afganistan. I knew there was a reason I never bought a Bridge City tool, and never will.

[Larry Frank]

I think that there would be an interesting split with people chosing both of those mentioned.

This thread has highlighted the large differences in approach of even those in the Neanderthal Haven. Everyone has their own approach that works for them and they are comfortable with. It is the same on almost every area of interest when looking at how people solve problems or create something. Some want to do things that way they have been done for years and others want to move on to newer technology. Neither is right or wrong and it is a bit silly for either group to attempt to impose their viewpoint as the only correct one.

[george wilson]

Lighten up,Will. I am through talking to you. Now you have crossed the line twice. That indicates a lack of intelligence on your part. I have worn a flag ever since 9/11.

Do be sure to post a picture of a bird house,or book ends,or something you have made,so that we can see the true extent of your "wisdom."

[Tim Put]

http://www.bridgecitytools.com/blog/2009/07/21/asthetics-is-a-responsibility/

This seems relevant.

[Will Blick]

> Lighten up,Will. I am through talking to you.


Is this a promise George? Although it took a lot of defensive posts to get to this point, it was the worth the time I invested. What a relief..... (but lets see your statement stand the test of time) Hopefully I can return to the civil Creek correspondence that I had experienced, prior to Jan 2009. (your join date)




> That indicates a lack of intelligence on your part.


You did mention how you don't make personal attacks or insults, right? sometimes reality bites, huh... Sorry that I stand up and defend myself George, I know that you would have preferred otherwise...its just my nature. I also stand up for others who are being unfairly attacked...in the real world, and on the internet.





> Do be sure to post a picture of a bird house,or book ends,or something you have made


I will post pix of blade edges at 300x magnification.... in honor of your commitment to the craft. You and all your friends can have a good laugh on me... fair enough?


And George, I strongly suggest you read the link Tim provided above. At a bear minimum, it shows you do not stand alone in your positions and treatment of others on ww forums. You are a member of a small unique group who all share the same attributes. The link explains it in detail..... it may be a painful read, but I highly suggest it, sometimes the truth can be painful.


It makes sense that the owner of BCT would be the person who experienced the highest degree of this modern tool - internet bashing....and after years of seeing it surface on the internet, no one has articulated this class of person better than BCT President John Economski..... Kudos John E. for your public notice of this unique group, who is sure to surface in a ww forum. I feel for John, as he must deal with this on a weekly basis, whereas my experience has been limited to only one specific ww....and don't wish this treatment to anyone, and I pray it will never occur again......but George, this all depends on your commitment to honor your statement about ending communication with me... you seem like an honest man, time will tell.....


Thanks again Tim for this MOST APPROPRIATE LINK!

[george wilson]

What is your point,Tim? I like to make nice tools too. They can be just as much works of art as any other object.

Larry,I do not say my way is the only way. It's just the extent of what some will go to to do what is really a basic operation. I am not going to spend thousands of dollars to sharpen my plane iron. I know how. I just kept at it and got better as a young kid.

I realize that there are many who are new to woodworking,or who otherwise feel that they cannot sharpen without help. That's fine. But,don't buy every gadget in the book and call it wisdom,because it simply isn't. Knowledge is more akin to wisdom,isn't it? Let's gather some knowledge and know how. This is basic to learning how to make things well.

I have a Jet wet grinder myself. I got it for $100.00 new in the box. If it had been full price,I'd have not bothered with it. I have no attachments except what came with it.

It grinds nice and smooth,and is fun to use freehand. Most of my life I used,and still use my old flat front Craftsman bench grinder with white wheels. I bought it new in 1963. That flat front is good as it clears drawknife handles.

I have as you can see,not the BARE minimum of equipment,but have enough and more to get the job done.

[Brian Ashton]

http://www.bridgecitytools.com/blog/2009/07/21/asthetics-is-a-responsibility/

This seems relevant.


The very brief read of the stuff posted on Bridge City tells me the guy needs a holiday and or get out of the business. To waste the time writing those articles shows a lot of pent up anger and a back handed attempt to get back at things he can't change and will never go away. For me when I get that angry that I need to respond like he has and or devote that sort of time to even thinking up such detailed responses I move on and find somewhere else to be and or something else to do.

I can see how he went sour also... When you're at the top of what ever the game your in you become a target. I had a feeling George was going to feel it when he appeared on the scene here. I'm sure Derek has many stories to tell. Sadly, I have to admit I've taken the odd shot at him over the years. It's part of the whole trend that's moving through the forum and blog worlds were most people have a need to be heard. Blogs appear to be an attempt to be heard but not responded to, or at least control the responses. For the most part this forum has been relatively resistant to it but not competely ammune.

It's been a very interesting observation over the last 2 decades watching how the internet has evolved society. Everyone want's to be heard but doens't want to listen.

[Mitch Barker]

At the end of the day, though, if one is spending more time trying to get the perfect edge on something (beyond the initial honing, of course) than putting the tool to wood, something's wrong.

Nothing is wrong. As a non-professional, I enjoy the process of woodworking, I'm not always looking for the most efficient means to the final product. So, it's OK by me, if I turn a 5 minute project into an all day affair!

MItch

[george wilson]

That's fine,Mitch. I have done exactly the same thing. It's how you learn. I've spent many hundreds of hours filing things out when I had nothing more than a used smooth file as a kid in a poor family. I did learn how to file from those early beginnings,though.

But,do you call it wisdom? Calling it having a good time is fine. Calling it "Look here,I have bought every sharpening gizmo in the catalog,am I not wise?" is something else. And,instead of offering to post pictures of things made with those edges,offering to post pictures of the edges is downright silly. I'd hate to see those edges damaged by actually using them!!!!!!!

Even as a professional,which I am,and time being money,which it is,I must draw the line somewhere. I can sharpen an edge more quickly freehand than I can by getting out a bunch of guides,microscopes,and whatever,and finally producing an edge.

The edge is very necessary,and the first thing I ever taught new people in my shop. But,it is not an end in itself,unless you are running a sharpening shop!!

[george wilson]

Sean, and Brian:I am a toolmaker,and have also made some very elegant and expensive tools.They are still,in the end,simple tools,though,that depend upon the skill of the user to produce nice results. I don't have Bridge City tools because I don't care for their aesthetics for the most part. Too extreme looking.

I don't know what kind of flak BCT has taken.I've never had that flak myself. Probably because I limit myself to a relatively small group of collectors. This whole month I have devoted myself to work for one of my customers. I am finally getting done with this job,and am glad,because it would have driven most people out of their minds in its attention to detail for this extremely particular person.

I have a friend who is quite a famous maker of miniatures, he doesn't advertise either, as he would probably get trouble from types who want doll house furniture,and do not understand a $50,000.00 miniature.

I suppose the thing to do if you make very expensive and exclusive things,is to develop such a clientele.Being in public for many years,I was able to meet the few people out of the many thousands that passed through my shop,and establish a customer base. I have as much business as I care to have.

[Tim Put]

My point was only was only the very same one you start to make in your last post.

Not everyone wants extremely finely made tools. Not everyone needs them. There are diminishing returns on high-end tools, a Karl Holtley probably preforms only marginally better than an LN or LV. Excellent work can be done with a small amount of middle-of-the-road tools. But... the very same things can be said about anything good ever made by anyone here or anywhere else. Not everyone needs, wants, or can afford very high-end woodwork. A couple 2"x8"s and some cinder blocks will hold books off the floor. Nevertheless there are good reasons to want well made high-end woodwork, and good reasons to want well made high-end tools, and a lot of both. No one is saying anyone must buy a complete set of shaptons, a lapsharp, kell, sharpskate and MKII honing guide, or a complete set of BCTW or Holtley planes, but if someone else wants to you can't criticize them anymore than you can criticize your clients.

If you don't want 'em, don't buy 'em. Other people have different tastes, different natural skill sets, different amounts of free time, different amounts of disposable income and, I emphasize, different tastes.

[Will Blick]

> But,don't buy every gadget in the book and call it wisdom, because it simply isn't.


For the newbs.... All the talent in the world, will not overcome the shortcoming of a given sharpening method / technique. (assuming it does not meet your final expectations) Some posters make it sound like you take a rock out of Garden bed, and with enough practice, produce an edge that will rip through hard end-grain, burls, etc. Nothing could be further from the truth. In reality, I have learned, it takes very little talent to sharpen, if you have the right equipment and a tiny bit of training....


In days gone by, metals technology was no where near where it is today.... therefore cost effective irons can be made today that have way more potential for sharper edges. By today, I don't mean the last few years... Producing "cost effective" sharpening technologies to exploit the potential of newer metals has lagged, at least in a tiny niche field like ww, where we want fast honing systems. Of course, "up to a point". I used to sharpen my pocket knife on the sidewalk as a kid, and it worked OK.


Swords in Japan held an amazing edge hundreds of years ago, but it would take a year to make the sword from start to finish. The sharpening process alone took many months. For ww's, this type of sharpening is unrealistic, hence the slow development of new and innovative products for sharpening.... (specifically ULTRA sharpening) and as we can see from this post, sometimes it takes the older resistant generations to move on, for these products / methods to integrate into the market. Of course, if all you need is a chisel to mortice a hinge, a BORG model, with off-the-shelf edge will suffice.... all this comes down to the ol adage.... "horses for courses".


My main hobby is photography.... in that field, there is a few "Georges" floating around as well on internet forums. Seeing the limitations of slow lenses for wildlife photography, I finally stepped up and bought some very high-end lenses... the differences are remarkable. In my case, no added talent required, just better glass...at least in my case. I know this is a very hard pill for many to swallow...


Brian, I hear ya on the BCT blogs.... but, in reality, I bet he spends a few days a year with such responses......that won't rock his business.... and I am sure you are right...he does this from pent up anger from "those type" who can't help themselves from knocking others, and accepting new innovation.


As for comparing a poster here with Derek C.... well, night n day IMO.... Derek gives tirelessly to the ww community. We owe him nothing but respect. When a superstar like himself, takes time out of his busy day to respond to newbs question, I find it gratifying these people still exist on a forum such as the Creek. All forums need Superstars, otherwise, you have a ton of questions, and no good answers. In addition to Superstars, a good forum needs people who volunteer their time to make informative posts, thats what makes forums unique IMO, vs. a trade magazine. But as often is the case, a few rotten apples, can spoil it for everyone. (rotten apple = antagonist people)



> So, it's OK by me, if I turn a 5 minute project into an all day affair!


Mitch, beware of statements like this...you see what happened to me? But I fully agree 100%... Sharpening to me, became therapy.... I seem to take pride in producing ultra sharp edges... I am in full agreement, its a hobby, we do it how we please, even if conflicts with someone who has a different approach and feels compelled to let the world know how absurd are approach is. I once spent 2 hours on one kitchen knife, till I finally concluded, its the metal, it won't take the edge as my very costly Japanese knives will...



> But,do you call it wisdom?


George, here is the definition of wisdom from the dictionary...

> Wisdom has been defined to be ``the use of the best means for attaining the best ends.''


Using the above definition, and reading (and comprehending my Wisdom post), Yes, wisdom was the correct word to use. I found / used the best means for attaining Ultra sharp edges. Hence the term wisdom. I still marvel how this could offend anyone, like it has. Forums consist of many types..... Georges opening line was set to bash, while Derek C's first line of his response was, thank you for taking the time to make this post. That's what I call civility, vs. antagonistic behavior, which is the spark that starts thread fires. Some of us need to learn from this....


> Calling it "Look here,I have bought every sharpening gizmo in the catalog,am I not wise?"


Instead of communicating with me direct, like you promised not to... you have elected to comment about me, via 3rd party. You are man of word George, right? (OBVIOUSLY NOT!). Anyway, I provided the definition of wisdom, and how it applied to my post. But, please, don't let this interfere with you original position, which you can't stop harping on.


George, if it makes you feel better, I will return all the sharpening accessories I own, and you provide me the name of the few stones you have, I will search them out in flea markets, and then, we will be on the same page from here on out.... seem fair to you? Will that make you happy George?



> And,instead of offering to post pictures of things made with those edges,offering to post pictures of the edges is downright silly.


George, you may have missed the title of that thread, it was called "Sharpening Wisdom". The hypothetical thread you refer to would have been titled, "projects I built with an Ultra Sharp edge". I never started such a thread... The title of my thread, and the content I provided were in FULL concurrence. I am sorry I did not create a thread that would have been more to your liking, but that is what the "delete" key is for on your keyboard, try it some time, it works well....



> Even as a professional,

In people skills? You have demonstrated the opposite.....


Now that you have moved to 3rd person to continue your harping, whats next? Maybe start your own thread on bashing me, so you can more fairly stay "on topic" ...... I must admit, this is becoming comical... a total waste of bandwidth, but comical... thanks for the laughs George....

[Will Blick]

Tim, thank you again for being the voice of reason in your last post.....it all seems so simple, huh? But just like every other sensisble explanation it falls on deaf ears.... but regardless, thank you....

And you are so right about the quality of mid range tools today.... LV, LN, when tuned, I can't imagine any planes really out performing them. And I am sure the same can be said for other makes, even some vintage, which I am less familiar with. Of course, the edge is a different matter....


I find it ironic that George makes high-end tools for select customers who spend thousands on something that could be bought for $50, and yet, he is quick to bash others who buy higher-end tools. That is an amazing irony, which I think has evaded him, as his rant continues.......

[Brian Ashton]

>As for comparing a poster here with Derek C.... well, night n day IMO.... Derek gives tirelessly to the ww community. We owe him nothing but respect. When a superstar like himself, takes time out of his busy day to respond to newbs question, I find it gratifying these people still exist on a forum such as the Creek. All forums need Superstars, otherwise, you have a ton of questions, and no good answers. In addition to Superstars, a good forum needs people who volunteer their time to make informative posts, thats what makes forums unique IMO, vs. a trade magazine. But as often is the case, a few rotten apples, can spoil it for everyone. (rotten apple = antagonist people)


When refering to Derek and George I meant it in that they're both at the top of their respective games. Derek is an accomplished amateur furniture maker. George is a very accomplished professional in that and related fields. There's no questioning their skills in their respective lives. They simply look at things differently as a result of one being an amateur and the other a professional and therefore take different paths to reach the same end result. Since both are at the top they will have to endure people taking pot shots at them for what ever reason... same as the guy(s) at Bridge City Tools. That's all I was saying about that.

[george wilson]

Brian,you cannot reason with Will. He is obviously a totally obsessed man who can see nothing beyond his sharp edges. He even wants to post pictures of them,as if no one else here can ever have made a sharp edge. his posts ramble on at great length,another sign of obsession. He posts in large letters because he wants to shout at me. He has taken to throwing every name he thinks he can get by with on this moderated forum because he is childish.

[Jon van der Linden]

I thought I'd better post my birdhouse straightaway, so there's no confusion about my abilities... it's all done with hand tools including the veneer sawing, so I hope I qualify for this thread. Even better, it's illuminating!

Back to topic.... First, it's clear that excellent work can be produced with the simplest of tools. The Egyptians proved this thousands of years ago with their "high tech" tools being made of bronze and not having any planes whatsoever since they weren't invented yet. They used many of the techniques we use: the dovetail, the mortise and tennon, pinned tennons, veneer, inlay, plywood, steam bent wood, gilded wood, etc.

There are not that many tools you really "need," although there are quite a few that will make things easier. It is also important to keep in mind that tool rehabing and collecting is not at all the same as woodworking, it is a hobby that many pick up to avoid actually making things! The real point here is that there are better tools, but a lot of them are really not necessary. Even Karl Holtey has a LN block plane in his shop... see how LN is now suddenly the "low end user!?!"

Accuracy... wood moves. But you do have to design for it or minimize it. To say that being accurate to 1/1000th of an inch is pointless because the wood moves is as silly as saying that a 10" wide board can change 1/8" in width so it only needs to be accurate to 1/8". I think most highly skilled woodworkers do work to 1/1000ths of an inch, because it is within the range of human detection by eye and hand. A patternmaker working by hand might have to build up a surface if they've gone slightly too far - what we're talking about here is as fine as building up a few layers of varnish to bring the thickness back. Most woodwork doesn't require this kind of accuracy, but fine work does, and there are plenty of people that work to it.

Minutia... this is the key to everything. It's what makes life easy. Does 15 vs 20 tpi make a difference? Sure it does, just try working in cocobolo, oak, hard maple, and cedar. Then try different thicknesses, a 1/4" board is quite different from a 3/4" one. Cutting thin boards you might gang them for speed or in some cases for improved cutting action. Can you get the job done with either one? Sure you can, but there is a difference. Then there are other minutia, like the subtleties of cross grain direction and runout, which can have all kinds of effects relating to stability, function, appearance, and ease of construction. Details are always important.

Design comes up in relation to one of the BCT posts. Unfortunately BCT doesn't talk about design or even how one should talk about design, just that it's important to do so. No argument there, but I do find most approaches to design very discouraging. To understand design is a lifelong persuit, not the answer to a technical problem. To understand design as it relates to furniture you'll need to read the basic classic texts on architecture: Vitruvius, Alberti, and Palladio would make a good start with a little on optical compensation in the Parthenon for good measure. Unfortunately I see design being presented as a solution to a particular problem, which it can be, but that is only one minor aspect. Classical architecture presents the concept of balance and relation of parts in a very thorough way that is lacking in many new buildings and furniture. I don't suggest these classic texts just for working in an 18th. c. style, they can form the basis for modern designs as well. This is just a starting point. Design is a huge topic and talking about it would take more space than is warranted in this thread.

I think that what New-neanders should take away from this thread is that well chosen simple tools will work fine, there's no need to break the bank. Spend a lot of time on design and drawing, it will really show in the end. And last, if at all possible, find a mentor that can show you some of the basics like how to sharpen - I'd recommend finding a carver if possible since carving generally requires significantly sharper tools.

[george wilson]

Jon,you are obviously well educated and have your thoughts well organized. An excellent post. Minutia is indeed the key to everything. As for design,I have seen so many very skilled craftsmen who do remarkable work.Yet,their work looks bad because they do not have a grasp of taste and design. That seems to be the one thing most lacking in the work I see today. I'm not talking about BCT here. I have in mind some otherwise top notch knife makers and furniture makers.

[Sean Hughto]

Yeah, making good and original art is very very difficult. Simply making a tight dovetail, not nearly so much.

[Darius Ferlas]

A little reflection of the topic at hand:

A mother is watching her son working on a piece of wood with a brand new hand plane.

- How do you like it mom? - asks son with a glimmer of pride in his eyes
- It's ... errr... nice - answers the mother - keep on planing son, dad will fix it up with an axe after dinner.

[Will Blick]

George, I will agree your posts have become shorter, but still are full of false statements. But nonetheless, you consistently power pack in the insults in every post.... from your last post, 1 out of every 2 sentences was an insult...

> you cannot reason with Will.

> He is obviously a totally obsessed man

> his posts ramble on at great length

> because he is childish.


You preach you are a respectful person, but what you write shows your true colors. You need to look in the mirror, reality can be painful.

George, even President Obama recently admitted he should have not said what he did about the Cambridge Police....and he is President of the USA. If he is "man" enough to step up to the plate, why can't you be? You were out-of-line right from the start telling me what analogies I can use, that ultra sharp edges have no place in ww, etc.


A simple apology would have ended this right from the start. But you seem to have the pride of a thousand men. That's sad...we all make mistakes, why not step-up and show the forum you can be the fair and respectful person you tell us all you are......by apologizing and moving on. One is never too old to apologize George....

[george wilson]

Since you address me very directly,Will,I will reply. You started with the uncalled for name calling by telling me to grow up. Then you called me a Taliban member. You have no right to expect an apology from me.

I have apologized a few times when I made a mistake,and was clearly wrong,but you have thrown the first stone. You apologize first,then I will.

[Will Blick]

George, a brief history refresher for you......

Your gripe with me started in the previous thread....with personal attacks... I will cut n paste just a few, as I realize how easy it is to forget..... then maybe you will reconsider an apology....


# 3 - you have a very expensive,complex system for sharpening that is not necessary.

I suppose now that you have bought all those things,you should go ahead and use them if they make you happy. (silly me, huh)


#8 also,if their goal is to become good woodworkers, we don't really need a bench full of crutches. (stupid me for having all these "crutches")

I do not consider buying a bunch of crutches as learning,certainly not wisdom. Learning is learning how to do something by developing personal skill,not relying on a bunch of jigs. (dummy me, I thought good quality tools will help perfect my craft)


#20 Yes,but I buy useful tools. There is a difference. (Stupid me again, I buy the "useless" tools, only George buys the "useful" tools)


Then your pent up anger towards me spilled over to this thread.....

#42 I fail to see how buying every honing guide out there constitutes thinking out of the box. (not only is this insulting, its not accurate, you have consistently failed to comprehend what I write)


#49 I said most professionals would laugh at the wrigamorole some go to to simply sharpen a tool. (Dummy me again, now I am the laughing stock of you and your friends, I am completely embarrassed)



Then, in #58, you had the audacity to write....

> I have not resorted to calling you names,or making personal attacks like that.

Huh? did you forget everything you had written prior? Maybe that is the root of the problem here? Forgetfulness? If so, I will understand if you admit it. It's starting to add up .....


> You play with your toys however you see fit,o.k.? :) I will concentrate on making nice things. (is this sarcasm? hmmmm)


#72 Calling it "Look here,I have bought every sharpening gizmo in the catalog,am I not wise?" (gee, can you make a post without attacking me? Is that even possible anymore?)


#78 you cannot reason with Will. He is obviously a totally obsessed man who can see nothing beyond his sharp edges. (you are batting a 1000 George... thanks for the civility you have brought to the Creek)


#78 he thinks he can get by with on this moderated forum because he is childish. (more name calling.... something you profess you never do - you need to look in the mirror once in awhile)


Anyway, hopefully this memory refresher will change your mind, and you will be man enough to step up now...I understand, we all get forgetful at times. (in this case, a LOT of times)


As for your latest post.... I never called you a Taliban, once again, you purposely mis quote, me. but you do fit the description of the attitude that John E wrote about what "he" calls the ww Taliban. You fit the description to a Tee! In that regard, I know the truth probably hurts.


As for suggesting you grow up.... its true, its not name calling...you have demonstrated the actions of a 5th grader, who also can't fess up and apologize....

[David Keller NC]

Guys - that is enough. Cut it out - this is not Knots, and a heck of a lot of us participate on SMC specifically because it is not a venue for mudslinging. Let's keep it that way.

[James Owen]

Guys - that is enough. Cut it out - this is not Knots, and a heck of a lot of us participate on SMC specifically because it is not a venue for mudslinging. Let's keep it that way.

Hear!! Hear!! A couple of more exchanges like the last two and we'll find this thread being closed to further comments...

[george wilson]

I agree.Nothing more from me.

[jerry nazard]

...this is not Knots, and a heck of a lot of us participate on SMC specifically because it is not a venue for mudslinging. Let's keep it that way.

Thank you, David. I also frequent Knots, and see a spattering of Creekers there, but I loathe the backbiting and nastiness. Let's calm down and get back to business.

[Will Blick]

I agree Jerry, I was getting flashbacks of Knots myself....

Not good for ones health!

[Brian Ashton]

dare i ask what is knots... sounds like the forum I pulled the pin on some months back.

[David Keller NC]

dare i ask what is knots... sounds like the forum I pulled the pin on some months back.

Knots is Fine Woodworking's forum. It has been lightly moderated in the past, and can turn into a free-for-all, particularly on controversial topics.