Hardwood flooring - diagonal w/border

[Dennis Thornton]

I'm planning on laying the floors in our living room/dining/kitchen area as part of a remodel. Never one to do just the normal, I'm thinking of laying the field diagonally with a border.

The subfloor is 2X decking with a closed cell foam insulation below (acts as a moisture barrier). The finish material I'm planning on using is a recycled product (http://www.sustainableflooring.com/index.php?index=strandwoven) - prefinished.

The plan is to run approximately 15" wide borders. I haven't decided for sure, but I'll probably weave the corners.

Some questions I have -

Am I trying to do something that will eventually "blow up"?
Rosin paper ok for the underlayment? Should I use something else?
What should I do for where I do cuts? Loose biscuits, dominos, or router a tongue/groove?
Staples or nails?
Should I start from the middle?

It seems the best way would to lay the field first making sure the ends extend past the start of the border area. Once the field is laid fire up the track saw and cut the edges. Then route a groove around the entire perimeter and then lay the border. Good plan or bad?

[Chip Lindley]

Regardless of the methods you use to lay this flooring, I would be concerned with uneven expansion/contraction across the width of the *boards* as opposed to their length. On a diagonal, this could spell disaster after a few seasonal cycles.

Check with the manufacturer and get their recommendation first. This product's expansion properties are the determining factor in laying it on the bias (diagonal) and expecting a borderline to remain straight with no future gapping.

This is the very reason you seldom see hardwood flooring laid entirely on diagonal. But, often seen are *basket weave* and *herringbone* patterns, which have equal amounts of cross-grain and long grain area running diagonally. The field as a whole tends to expand/contract evenly, rather than in ONE direction only (usually across the grain)

[Jim W. White]

Having just finished laying a hard wood floor I'll offer the following input. This was my first floor and I was surprised by the amount of time it took to complete and I am by NO means an expert after this one 600 bd/ft project so please take this guidance with a grain of salt.

Diagonal layout sounds cool, but it will increase your work by a ton. It can also look overly busy if done in the wrong room.

I used the "Cleats" vs. the "Staples" becuase it was an extremely hard wood. (Brazilian Walnut/Ipe), I think the staples would work just fine on a softer wood though.

I learned the hard way that recessing your cleats adequately is much more important than worrying about an occassional split tongue now and then.

Starting from the center with a arbitrary baseline will be imperative if you work on the diagonal. In my case it was imperative do to a number of offset walls. Instead of face-nailing these peices I screwed down 3/4 ply fence along the length of the first row and then was able to use the pnuematic assisted nailer on both sides after splining the first row to the second and moving the screwed in fence to the other side. If you spline the two starting rows together with 1/4" strip you can then work with the flooing nailer in both directions.

Doing the field first will be necessary in order to get good fit on all four sides. Remember to always start your rows from any fixed object (such as a fluch mount register) and not from the opposite wall or you final fit will suffer (DAMHIKT)

When considering the "work load" for this project keep in mind that there will be a LOT of manual toe-nailing & pre-drilling involved. The pnuematic nailers can only get you to within a foot or so from each wall. If your working with 2 1/4" strip that leaves you about 5 rows to do by hand.

The HF nailer is a really good unit and you can routinely pick it up for $99 bucks on sale. This allows you to work at your own pace and not pull your hair out trying to chase the rental clock. I never had it mis-fire or jam even once, it's definately one of their best knock-off products.

Don't get me wrong. It's definately a low tech job that just about anyone can pull off, but it is a lot of work!

Oh yeah... buy a good set of knee pads with a soft interface to the floor (some of the old style pads will scuff your new pre-finished flooring) ....you"ll be up and down A LOT.

Have fun,

Jim in Idaho

[Larry Rasmussen]

And would do it as you describe. I did not do the installation diagonally by the way but when I got to the end where it will transition to another room I ran the pieces over long as you describe and cut them off with the smaller Festool saw and track. Came out great and I plan to just route a groove and spline the end piece to it. I used roofing felt as underlayment.

I would not be able to suggest any changes. The man made stranded material is pretty stable and we have had very little moisture driven swelling or shrinking. Usually I have a dozen ideas for the next time when I do a new project but this time not so much. Your plan will work. Now about the effect or impact of a diagonal design- hard to say.

Good luck,
Larry Rasmussen,
Seattle

[Maurice Ungaro]

Whatever you do, forget the rosin paper and use 15 lb. felt as a barrier.

[John McClanahan]

The product that you are considering is a plywood base. My understanding by watching the DIY shows is the plywood will not have expansion problems as much as solid boards. At least, it won't have directional expansion problems, as it will expand in all directions equally.

John

[Prashun Patel]

I just finished my sunroom on a diagonal. Here's what I can offer:

The border will be the hardest part. Doing the field first will make it easy to align the miters to the border. However, it will make it harder to install the border. If it were me, I'd skip the border (if this were my first install).

The diagonal's not that hard. The trick here is to start in the middle so you can tack a long straight edge down to serve as the reference. Then you nail a course down, glue in a spline and work your way out from both sides.

Skipping the border will make your miter cuts at the baseboard easy (they don't have to be spot on).

[Tom Godley]

I like borders - But they can make some spaces look too busy if they are done incorrectly. A little goes a long way especially with the product you are using. I would be especially carefully doing one in a kitchen unless it was a simple defined rectangle.

I would also lay out some flooring to see how the diagonal looks. Just looking and thinking of the spaces I have -- I would not like it.

It will also make for a lot of additional work.

The rosin paper is fine -- you are just using it for a separation -- although I have had plenty of old floors that were installed directly on board sheathing and have not had any noise problems. The paper has become quite standard since the use of plywood.

I personally would never use felt (tar) paper inside under a floor - but that is just me as I have heard that it is sometimes used.

Do a little searching online regarding the border installation - you will get a lot of ideas and help with the install.

The last boarder I had installed was a simple one and the odd small sections were glued and I have had no issues even with radiant heat.

The border was installed first and the field was installed after.

I have heard many positive things about the staples - but have never had them used. My last floor was Brazilian Cherry and getting the nails through it was a pain -- let alone a staple. I am sure the manufacturer can provide recommendation.

[Dennis Thornton]

Wow, thanks guys. Some pretty good advice.

I'll check with the manufacturer for their thoughts. I'll also check into the HF nailer. I expect to have a very sore back and knees for a couple weeks (Has to fit into my work schedule). I will rack the floor first to get a good feel for how it looks before I start.

I've always wondered about expansion in wood floors. I can understand there will be some expansion, but I don't understand how there can be very much. Aren't the finish boards nailed down? Doesn't that prevent expansion to a degree? If it doesn't then wouldn't the nail holes inevitably elongate or the joints start to show gaps as the floor expands/contracts? All the floors I've seen/owned had neither of these problems. Luck maybe? In my current home (CA tract) the upstairs has 3/8 solid oak, 50 years old, and the floors are in excellent condition. The prior home (Tucson) had 3/4 oak over a non-moisture controlled crawspace, 70 years old, and no visible problems. Both floors were on 1X diagonal board subfloors, so maybe that explains it.

[John Keeton]

Dennis, I would bet that if you pulled the baseboards and shoe molding on those floors, you would find that an expansion space is left that permits the floor to move without buckling. And, from having laid some hardwood, and having had several homes with hardwood - yes, it does move, and yes, the joints can open if the underlying structure/underlayment is not done correctly. A lot of it will have to do with the environment. Crawl spaces or slabs are probably more prone to moisture changes. In an installation with conditioned space above and below, there will be minimal movement once equilibrium is reached for the flooring - which hopefully was before installation!

[Robert Reece]

Hi Dennis-

a few thoughts.
Make sure your wood is acclimated to your house. I had some hardwood laid and the place sent the wrong wood. It sat here for 3 weeks before the installer started work and discovered it was the wrong grade. So they rushed us out some more wood in a few days and the wood was dryer than my house. He laid it anyway and all the joints swelled together and they have a little hump to this day. Fortunately I have more to do and he will just sand the whole floor then.

Second - with a high density foam under 2x decking, I'd skip the paper all together. It's wasted time and money. There won't be any moisture coming through that foam.

good luck, It'll be fun.

[Dennis Thornton]

While doing some research I came across the following page:
http://www.hardwoodinstaller.com/hardwoodinstaller/mixed_media_installations.htm

I think I'm going to do a couple areas in wood and stone. :)