Comparison between MM Cu410 Elite-S and Felder CF740S

[Richard Link]

I have been researching hard these two european combination machines (The minimax CU410 Elite-S and the Felder CF740S) and am trying to make a final decision about one or the other. In summary, I am hoping that someone out there has actually used or evaluated both machines in person and can give me some practical advice.

In general:

Felder CF741S Advantages:
- tons of options
- great build quality
- electric powerdrive and LED on single phase machine
- seems like greater market penetration and perhaps a larger installed base
- availability of high speed router spindle

Felder CF741S Disadvantages:
- Price premium
- tons of options, all of which appear to be slightly overpriced as compared to MM (or priced at a premium)
- short tables and extensions are expensive options
- 12" blade max
- proprietary (often Felder rebranded) tooling -> more "european"
- long lead time on machine delivery
- rolling carriage not as flexible in rotation

MM CU410 Elite-S advantages:
- price is better
- machine is 1/3 more massive (why? Better?)
- takes a 14" blade
- Sam Blasco is a great guy and a terrific resource and about a 2 hour drive away
- I am also in the market for a MM bandsaw
- longer jointer table
- uses USA spec tooling
- ? better rolling carriage

MM CU410 Elite-S disadvantages:
- no LED height or power drive on single phase machines
- not much info out there on installed machines
- not as many fancy add on options (might be a good thing for the wallet)

These are just the salient points. In broad brush strokes, it seems like the MM machine is bigger, heavier, immediately available and perhaps a bit simpler with fewer bells and whistles. The Felder is fancier, less massive, requires a lot of retooling to european standards, has a long lead time and probably a lot of hidden costs lurking under every bush.

Rather than focusing on the specific option issues, does anyone have direct experience with both machines who could weigh in and help me avoid a mistake?

Rick

[Mike Heidrick]

Will the MM spin the router bits at 22K?

[Richard Link]

Definately not, although to the best of my knowledge, neither with the Felder. I think the high speed spindle runs at about 15K max on the Felder.

[Joe Jensen]

Rick Fisher on this forum shopped Felder hard for a slider and found some things he thought were important differences. I don't recall them, but I'll send him a PM to join the discussion...joe

[John Harden]

Richard, I was in the same position as you a few weeks ago and looked at these exact two machines. While I wanted (and ultimately bought) a saw/shaper combo and a seperate jointer/planer combo, I visited the shops of folks locally who had the CU-410 Elite S and a Felder 700 series combo.

There's a great deal of good info in the thread I started on the subject here. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=115620 Post #49 sums up my impressions and research nicely I think.

In any event, a couple of observations.


Felders are custom ordered to your exact spec's. This typically costs more, but you get exactly what you want.
With the economy, everone is steeply discounting. The two Felders I bought cost less than the quote I got from Sam for the Elite S machines and came with many, many options MM doesn't offer. Pay no attention to list prices on websites. Call for quotes.
If you get the 5 hp variable speed motor option on the Felder it will spin router bits up to 22,000 rpm, though the factory techs I spoke with advise keeping it to around 19,000. Higher than that and you risk the spindle bearing, but at only $150 for a new one, most FOG users just spin away.
The Elite S is in fact heavier, but when you visit the saws in person at people's shops, look at them close. Felder doesn't use concrete for extra mass or to absorb vibration.
Felder's dust collection is quite a lot better. Just about dust free operation at the saw blade, and jointer/planer.
Felder machines have a solid, welded steel floor making the cabinet quite rigid. This allows you to move it all over the shop and not risk tweaking any of the settings.
The only custom tooling you'll need for the Felder will likely be the saw blades. Felder uses a custom bore with two small holes for the electric brake. The plus of this is their arbor is far more massive.
Get the free Felder video. Very well done and it'll highlight some of the tradeoff's you'll need to accept with a full combo, versus two or even three seperate machines. Most of these lessons will apply regardless of which brand you choose.
Honestly, I probably would have been happy with either one. I've owned an MM20 bandsaw now for about 3-4 years and its a great machine. In the end though, I want to use the Euro slider for its intended purpose. For that I need a parallel cutting device and don't want to cobble something together. I also wanted the ability to buy and add accessories over the years as I need them. MM doesn't offer much here at all. Sure, they offer a lot standard, but one size doesn't fit all and what about in the future?

For example, I wanted a shaping head to do curved template work. MM offers nothing, while Felder offers two. What about supplemental infeed/outfeed tables, shorter or longer rip fences, tooling, etc. I chose the 2800mm slider. You might want the 2500, or 3200. I wanted variable speed motors, electric height adjustment for the shaper and planer (but not the saw blade), but you might want something different.

In the end, you should go visit each saw in person and use them for awhile to get a feel for them.

Couple of things I really liked about the MM machine though. Folding arm option for the power feeder is very nice. Felder uses a tilting bracket and while you can buy a Big Lift device to make it very easy to raise and lower, it's still hanging upside down back there taking up a lot of room. I prefer the MM approach. You also don't wait as long for MM to get the machinery you ordered. They had some good options in stock when I was looking. My Felders will take four months to be manufactured and shipped over here.

Ultimately, I'm sure you'd be happy with either saw, and to be frank, I think it really comes down to your personal impressions and needs.

Good luck with whatever you choose!!!

Regards,

John

[Jay Brewer]

Its a toss up, everybody that owns either one of those machines, loves them.

You have a very good pros and cons list on each machine. I do like the variable speed on the shaper, and it will go up to 20k rpms on the router spindle w/ the variable speed.

I would want the power lift on the shaper and planer. Those are great features and definitely not a gimmick. Most people that say " its no big deal cranking the table up and down all the time" hasn't tried the power drive.If I bought the Mini Max it would have those options and would require a phase converter if you don't have 3 phase already.

I think people make too big a deal about retooling. Your spending in the high $20k and going to gripe about $21 to have a blade rebored to the Felder pattern? I had 5 blades worth saving from my cabinet saw, sent them to Forrest to be rebored, a little over $100, not what I would base my machinery purchase on.

The good side is either one you choose, you will be happy with, and will last the rest of your life. Good luck.

[Jeff Wright]

Ask yourself honest questions. Are you REALLY going to use the shaper feature? Or the mortiser unit? I ask because I have yet to use either in the two years I have had my MM410. I use my router table for most shaping and a Domino for my floating tenons. Of course, that is a function of my type of work. Yours will possibly vary.

I am not saying the shaper or mortiser are not value adds; just saying that if you can predict/anticipate your daily use for your purchase accurately, you may make different decisions.

I am a happy MM owner and have benefited from Sam's expertise as well.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Richard, I personally don't think that Felder's need the European tooling. I use plenty of Freeborn and Forrest along with the Felder branded blades and cutters. Their branded tooling has all been good stuff that I've purchased, and I did buy a 40mm shaper spindle to accept European cutters without reboring, along with a 1 1/4" for the American stuff. The spindle is fairly cheap, and well worth having around.

Thats one of the great things about a CF741, the ability to swap spindles so easily. You can also have Forrest bore a dado blade for Felder.

How much longer are the Minimax jointer tables? I guess I have never craved longer then my Felder's, but I never joint anything over 8 feet or so. On that length, I swing the power feeder over the jointer anyway, so the table length becomes even less relevant. That brings up a really good point to the CF741, the power feeder, when mounted with a tilt away mount, can be used on the shaper, saw and jointer without changing any mounting.

The blade diameter is relevant only if you actually need a larger blade, what are you building?

One last thing, my X-roll Felder table slides smoother then both Minimax machines that I've been around.

Both are great machines, and either company may have a stock model on hand that would eliminate the long wait. I bought a showroom CF741 from the Sacremento store, but wanted a longer table, which the guys swiped off of a different machine, so that I got it in a little less then two weeks.

[John Harden]

Ask yourself honest questions. Are you REALLY going to use the shaper feature? Or the mortiser unit? I ask because I have yet to use either in the two years I have had my MM410. I use my router table for most shaping and a Domino for my floating tenons. Of course, that is a function of my type of work. Yours will possibly vary.

I am not saying the shaper or mortiser are not value adds; just saying that if you can predict/anticipate your daily use for your purchase accurately, you may make different decisions.

I am a happy MM owner and have benefited from Sam's expertise as well.

Jeff raises a good point. I'm very happy with my Leigh FMT and just don't think I'd get my money's worth out of a horizontal mortiser, so I skipped on that. Don't quote me on this, but I think you can opt out of it with MM. I know you can with Felder.

Regards,

John

[Richard Link]

I imagine that I will use the mortiser fairly rarely but one of the reasons I decided to switch to the combo was the shaper. I see myself using that a lot as I integrate it into my workflow (particularly with the power feeder). I have no room to add a stand alone shaper to the shop. On the other hand, although I'm looking at a 20K purchase, I'm not thrilled that Felder wants to charge an additional 1500 for the table for the mortiser. I like MM philosophy of packaging a fully functioning 5 in 1 combo into a simple package. Of course, if you want a mortiser table with a flux capacitor, digital gravity gauge, and 4 cupholders, Felder has one of those...and it works "perfect!" (love those Felder ads).

The CU410 Elite-S is a massive machine....1/3 more heavy than the Felder. I assume that everything on it is more massive and stiff. Is the form factor more in line with the larger Felder's (i.e. the Format 4 machines)?

On the other hand, is the price premium for the Felder just an issue of import duties, luxury branding, etc. (can't see how as MM is European as well) or is there a real quality difference somewhere in that huge hunk of metal?

Rick

[John Harden]

Richard, you really should go look at the machines first hand. In my opinion, everything on the Elite S is not more robust and rigid. Somewhat, and in some areas, but less so in others. The sliding table is a good example. I prefer Felder's for how robust it is and the design as well as the 1500 outrigger. Very slick design. In terms of quality, I think I'll always remember a very frank conversation I had with both my MM and Felder rep. when pressed, they'd both admit that the real differences aren't worth a hill of beans. It all boils down to what you want the machine to do and how you go about getting there.

The Formats are simply monsters as are the Martin's, etc. Not in the same league as either of the units you're looking at.

BTW, you only get three cupholders with the flux capacitor option, not four. :) Personally, I like that I'm not forced to buy a mortiser which I'd never use. If it's in the basic package, you're paying for it.

$1500 for the Felder mortising table? Was this on a quote or are you just looking at the configurator?

At AWFS I saw Felder's flyer that indicated if you buy a 700 Series full combo you get either a free bandsaw or a dust collector. Don't remember which models they were offering, but even if you don't want or need one, that offers plenty of room for negotiation. That's $3-$5K worth of negotiation right there!

My advice is to figure out what options you want/need, get hard quotes from both and visit the machines.

Earlier you mentioned you liked the 14" blade capacity of the MM. What are you cutting that requires more than 4" of blade height? If you do this sort of thing often, the MM might be the better choice. Pieces of wood this large are darn heavy and with the MM you'd have the advantage of the slider, versus having to go to the band saw and man handle it around.

If you go MM will you go three phase to get the power height adjustment offerings? Change over from saw/shaper and back again is far easier and quicker with it. If its a hassle to make the change you may be reluctant to do it. I also went with variable speed for the same reason. No belts to hassle with. You just turn a dial. Powered movements are darn nice once you've seen them in action. If you go this route, do you have three phase power? If not, don't forget to factor in the cost/space of a converter.

Regards,

John

[John Harden]

The CU410 Elite-S is a massive machine....1/3 more heavy than the Felder. I assume that everything on it is more massive and stiff. Is the form factor more in line with the larger Felder's (i.e. the Format 4 machines)?




Rick, where are you getting the information on weight? MM's website says the CU-410 Elite S combo weighs 3100 pounds.

The Felder saw/shaper I purchased weighs 1720 pounds and the jointer/planer 1280 for a total of 3000 pounds. These are the exact same units on the CF741S combo. Mine are just seperated versus together. Felder's website doesn't list the weight for the S combo, only the standard CF741 combo with shorter slider, slider undercarriage and smaller base cabinet, yet that one still weighs in at 2440 pounds.

Add in the optional mortiser on the S model and you're now well over 3100 pounds. Sounds like a wash to me.

Regards,

John

[Paul B. Cresti]

I own(ed) 5 MM machines and 1 Felder. I have been happy with the performance of all of my MM's but can not say the same about the Felder....so my opinion will be obviously slanted here.

As far as the options go I really do not understand this as a deal breaker here. Here are some of my thoughts

If I understand the "1 ph" option on the Felders are a 3ph motor with an inverter?? If you are able to swing a phase converter I would go with a 3 phase machine anyway....runs cooler, lasts longer/more efficient and has more power.
Adds and such. A good amount if not all the Felder add ons are from Aigner I believe. These can be used almost any machine but check with Aigner. I think MM has access to SCM (the extremely large industrial parent company) extras but they really do not advertise them. I remember seeing a parrallel ripping add on that looked quite nice that would fit my S35 but it was pricey. I chose to make my own.
The chatter about the Felder X-roll vs the linear bearing slider. SCM has had the linear bearing slider in their arsenal for years with no issues I know of. I have owned the S315 and now the S35 and the slider always worked great and requires no maitainence what so ever. I also believe other companies like Martin use linear bearings. In my opinion go with the the time tested design here.
Tooling can be purchased from anywhere. Their are a million companies selling shaper tooling and you can pay $$$$ or a little depending on what you want. Insert tooling vs fixed also come inot play depending on your needs and budget. Here in the USA using imperial sizes gives you a lot of options with both local and and import companies. I would suggested staying away from European sizes...after all you do not live in Europe do you?
The more customized Felder....i really do not understand the options needed. See above for the Aigner statement. The one that really gets to me is the high speed router spindle....I have a MM shaper and it "only" runs at 10000 top speed. I never have had issues with my router bits burning....but I use a power feeder. The next question is my heck use router bits in your shaper! You bought a shaper to use it as a shaper so make use of it. If you do need to run router bits as we all need to at time then use the machine it fits perfectly....a router. Your a ww'r build yourself a router table. I can count on my hand the amount of times I have used my router bits in my shaper.
I find that the Felder machines are a bit too fusy and over complicated for no reason other than "we can".

[Jay Brewer]

I dont understand the argument that Felder has too many options. This makes no sense to me. No one is making you buy the option or accessories. They are just there if you want them, but at least they are there.

If your spending this kind of money, it only makes sense to me to buy the EXACT machine you want. If the Mini Max has everything you want, than thats great, its a fantastic machine.

The router spindle is a worth while investment. The statement " Buy a router table if you want to run router bits" is ludacris.With the Felder interchangeable spindles, its a snap to switch from shaper to router. Please show me a stand alone router table that can even remotely match up to a shapers mass, rock solid fence, and a sliding table to boot. And you can turn the Felder into one of the nicest router tables money can buy for a $600 spindle. Seems like a good choice to me.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

The MM line is closer to the Hammer line I should think.
Felder is commercial

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Paul, I think that the Felder runs a variable frequency drive to convert the single phase to run the three phase motors.

[Leigh Betsch]

The problem with thread like this they soon become us vs them in nature. The reality is not many people have owned both machines so they don't have a real good comparison of the performance of the machines. Then they get real defensive about "their" machine, which I really don't understand, it's not like they invented it or their last name is Felder or MiniMax. The best you can hope for is someone that actually owns one that will explain the benefits of the features and objectively explain why the feature has value to them. And maybe you can convince someone to share the purchase price feature by feature so you can make a value decision of your own, or you can get some quotes. You gotta line up what you get and how much you spend for the two machines, factor in the service, delivery, optional features that you want and are willing to pay for, try to get peoples experiences to see what they perceive as value and make your choice. I happen to own a MM ST4, its a great machine, makes me smile every time I use it. But I really don't know if it is better or worse than a Felder. Some day I'm going to buy a Felder, then I'll know. All I really know is there are a lot of people that do better work than me with a lot less equipment.

[John Harden]

Leigh, I haven't really seen that in either this thread or the one I started that went for four or five pages. People have been pretty civil.

In my veiw, the money quote is this one below:


...Rather than focusing on the specific option issues, does anyone have direct experience with both machines who could weigh in and help me avoid a mistake?

Rick

Given the two machines he's looking at, their precision engineering, well deserved reputations and high cost, I honestly don't see how he could make a mistake buying either.

The one thing I'd really recommend is he concentrate on what options (not accessories) he needs and/or wants. Many of these decisions need to be made before he places the order, regardless of which manufacturer he chooses.

You can always buy extension tables, shaper spindles or doodads later, but adding machine options like powered height adjustments, more HP, 3 phase motors, or a longer (or shorter) slider after the fact can get very expensive.

He seems to be leaning towards Mini-Max and that's great, but they too offer the options I mentioned above. He needs to chose these at the time of order.

This is where the visits to shops of local owners who have these machines becomes so important.

For me it provided the first hand experience not only to compare them, but to make these critical decisions on built in options. It was on one of these visits that I ruled out a full combo in favor of a saw/shaper combo and seperate jointer/planer combo.

From all the research I've done, many of the people who sell these machines a few years down the road do so in order to "upgrade" and get larger machines or more built in functionality they later wish they'd bought the first time.

Rick's poised to buy at the top of the heap for the serious hobbiest, so there's not many saw choices for him to "upgrade" to down the road unless he moves to the SCM, Martin or Format lines ($$$$$$).

That reality makes his research and ultimate decisions now all the more important.

That's my .02

Regards,

John

[Charlie Plesums]

...

The Elite S is in fact heavier, but when you visit the saws in person at people's shops, look at them close. Felder doesn't use concrete for extra mass or to absorb vibration.

...

I have been following and contributing to this discussion, but I missed this comment until recently.... MiniMax doesn't use concrete for extra mass or to absorb vibration, nor for anything else. I have a CU410 Elite, and have been over every inch, and can assure you, no concrete. I have helped friends set up several other MiniMax machines, and no concrete in them either. I have never heard of any MiniMax machine with concrete. Could it be the Felders that have concrete?

Wherever this rumor started about MiniMax, it sure isn't true.

Charlie

[John Harden]

I have been following and contributing to this discussion, but I missed this comment until recently.... MiniMax doesn't use concrete for extra mass or to absorb vibration, nor for anything else. I have a CU410 Elite, and have been over every inch, and can assure you, no concrete. I have helped friends set up several other MiniMax machines, and no concrete in them either. I have never heard of any MiniMax machine with concrete. Could it be the Felders that have concrete?

Wherever this rumor started about MiniMax, it sure isn't true.

Charlie

I really probably should have worded that better. What I was trying to say was that Felder does not use concrete like some other manufacturers. I wasn't trying to imply that MM does. The MM's I looked at did not have concrete in them. My MM20 bandsaw doesn't have it either, but it sure as heck feels like it does every time I try to move it around the garage!!!! :)

Regards,

John

[Paul B. Cresti]

I am not about to hide where my loyalties lie so either you like it or you don't ;)
In my opinion, and once again this is MY point of view based upon my own use of a router spindle, getting a special spindle or paying for a machine with some additional modification to "speed up" to the special router speed is useless. If one is buying a shaper use it for what a shaper is intended for : shaper cutters. I find it odd to buy a 5k-8k shaper or spend 10-20k on a combo unit to have the cut all come down to some $30 router bit with such small mass. Be it known if you buy a shaper that cutters cost a whole lot more than router bits...I have literally spent thousands on shaper cutters albeit I did do this professionally. If for some reason you still opt for a router spindle also be known that by varying you feed rate and using sharp bits will give you adequate results.

I would suggest to make yourself a nice router table and continue to use those "little" router bits in it so this way you keep your shaper free to do the real work. After you see how long it can take to set up a shaper and especially with a feeder (highly recommended) you will see my point.

Slider option: get as long as you can..suggest to be able to cut at least 8ft sheet

Jointer/planer cutter head: get a Tersa head....ridiculously easy to change and works flawlessly. get the widest jointer you can so this was you can angle tough grain stock to get a shear cut....plus very nice to joint after glue ups. Do not forget if you get a combo unit whatever jointer size is also your planer size

motor: suggest getting a 3 phase unit and a rotary pahse converter. # phase runs cooler, last longer and is very efficient. Also ask what the motor duty is rated at. Higher class rating can handle more use/heat

[John Harden]

Hey Richard, I heard you may have bought a Felder combo machine. I'm interested to hear if you were able to take a look at examples of each manufacturer and what your thoughts were.

What did you wind up getting? Did you go full combo or two or more seperate machines. Just curious.

Regards,

John

[Mike Heidrick]

For those folks with shaper combos, do you find taking the fence on and off to be a challenge? I just got a Laguna T1002S sliding shaper with a CI fence body and Aluminum fence faces and it has a VERY HEAVY fence that would not be fun to constantly take on and off. I can see doing it to add a tenoning hood but really only when you need too. I am not sure I would like taking it off everyday if you were using the shaper and saw in one machine. When does that shaper fence interfere with cutting at the saw? Thoughts?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Mike, I do know that the Felder 240 fence is a pretty substantial device. Personally I don't have a problem with swapping it, but it probably weighs 40# or so, and is fairly large. You can use the saw with the shaper fence on, but you are limited on width to about 6 inches width or length. I do think that swapping from saw to shaper is probably the biggest pain of any of changeovers, and needs the most attention to workflow to minimize.

There are no compromises in quality of either machines function when set up properly though, so I think that for me, the tradeoff of a bit of convienance on the changeover is well worth having a no compromise saw or shaper when I want them. Some people will disagree with that, and combos do not work for folks who cannot plan workflow. I also don't think they would work very well in a two man shop.

They are built for saving space with no compromize to machine quality, and for this they are superb. After using one for a while now though, I do actually like the more efficiant planning it inspires, and find that projects are done MUCH faster now.

BTW, you have one sweet shaper!