Sharpening Wisdom

[Will Blick]

.

As Neanders, it seems our tools can only be as good as our blades. Through time, I keep learning new things about sharpening...things I never find in books, and thought I would collect my thoughts and share them with the forum. Hopefully some neanders will benefit....

Duo Diamond plates.... I bought a bunch of these plates awhile ago....

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AT9VCFF9L._SL500_AA280_.jpg

They seem to have all the great attributes of great sharpening tool, diamonds, excellent flatness, holes for he swarf to hide in to keep the surface clean without constant watering. In the end, I have delegated them to rough jobs, where I don't mind them being ruined. IMO, they are so inferior to GOOD water stones, I am pissed i waste some good coinage on the set.


In the end, I have concluded, a stone makes the perfect sharpening platform, as the stone gives up small bits of its material with the swarf, so you always have fresh abrasive on the blade.... any sharpening platform that can not refresh its medium, will loose its effectiveness over time. This includes sanding papers as well..... on glass, they are FLAT, but they wear relatively quickly and must be changed often. The other great trick I have learned with stones is, keep a drip of water over the stones when in use, so the swarf is constantly washed off.....if not, often the swarf can be of a lower grit than the stone itself, so you are not sharpening to the stones grit, as the swarf particles continue to scratch the edge. Hence why I gave up on sanding papers, in lieu of water stones.... I found the swarf was too hard to remove. But sanding papers on glass, if not overused, is surely a low cost approach to excellent sharpness. GLASS is the ultimate in flatness.

When I first became a Neander, I always wondered "how sharp is sharp enough".... I read several books on this subject, but never had a clear answer. In most cases you hear 8k stone grit is plenty sharp for woodworking. IMO, its not this simple. In general, a good sharpening to 8k will suffice for face planing most woods. I agree. However, for really hard woods, difficult grain, burls, or end grain planing, I disagree. I found it amazing how ULTRA sharp blades solve just about any planing problems I have ever encountered. I have now settled on 15k and 30k stones as my final sharpening stones.... I used to achieve the same (or a bit sharper) with diamond paste, but I find the stones so much easier to use, I very rarely resort to the paste. But considering the price of a 30k stone, 1/4 micron diamond paste is a good option for "occasional" ultra sharp requirement.

After using Shapton stones for some time now, I have really come to appreciate the value of a VERY FLAT stone. I spend as much time flattening the stones as I do honing the blades across them. The reason is, a really flat stone only requires 20 seconds of strokes on each side of the blade to complete its task, assuming the stone was dead flat. I used to think my stones were dead flat, till I started putting swirl pencil lines on the stones, then flattening them. I saw the stones were not as flat as I thought....which brings me to the next big lesson I learned over time.... a stone is only as flat as the flattening tool you use on it. My favorite two products in this regard is the Shapton flattening plate for stones 80 - 2000 grit...

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/assets/images/product/JapanWoodworker/02.100.jpg


And the Shapton flattening diamond plate for stones 2000 grit +

http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/images_p/Q00DGLP.jpg



These are costly additions to the sharpening arsenal.... but from my experience, they are worth it, as they keep ALL your stones FLAT. I have tried some of the non metal flattening stones for the courser stones, but it they become vulnerable to becoming UN FLAT themselves.... using the pencil swirls on the stones speaks volumes on what is happening when you are flattening the stone. Your eyes are a terrible judge of small dips n valleys in stones that a blade will detect, but you will NOT. The Shapton diamond flattening plate works incredibly well with the Shapton Ceramic stones. The stones flatten in about 10 seconds after a honing, not a big deal...


I also buy all A2 blades, as they are a perfect match with the Shapton ceramic stones....this was confirmed before my purchases from Shapton...and its no sales pitch, the swarf melts right off the blades. So this is something to consider, i.e. matching the blade metal to a stone type that is well suited for that metal. For example, when i compare the shapton 8k ceramic to the Norton 8k water stone, the difference is very noticeable on A2 .... needless to say, my Norton stones are relegated to rough work now...


This weekend I was trying to plane some end grain on a shooting board, desert dried, maple and cherry. I was amazed how a good blade, sharpened to 8k could not plane the end grain of these woods...it would scrape the end grain, which made dust.... but the slightest blade advancement would eventually lead to the blade getting stuck in the wood, as the blade was simply not sharp enough to cut this nasty dried end grain. When I used the same plane on the woods face grain, it produced gorgeous .002" shavings, plenty sharp. Another example, of "how sharp is sharp enough"....


So I dropped a few degrees on the angle, and went to 30k stone on this blade, and it sliced this same stubborn end grain like butter. See-through shavings with ease. Another case where "sharper" is the simple and effective solution.


I prefer sharpening jigs for use on stones. The reason is, to hold an ULTRA sharp edge, its very important to hold the edge at a perfect and consistent angle through the motion over the stone. Nothing holds the angle as consistent as a jig. Although I have free handed in the past, but only to a certain grit. At which point, I don't want to introduce a weak link into the sharpening chain. I am a bit partial to the LV jig... it fits my hands well.... a clever system, a great price...


http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/images_p/V05M0901.jpg


However, recently I have been working with these sharpening sleds from Alisam engineering as well.... I have plans to develop a fast method for applying a front / back bevel (as Brent Beach has endorsed) for quick re-honing of my BU plane blades, more on that when I have the system perfected...


http://alisam.com/userimages/all3%20frnt40.jpg?rand=1119625512

Havea look at these very well made jigs...
http://alisam.com/page/14n51/Sharpening.html


When I ventured into Neanderland, I was warned about the slippery slope of hand planes (sooo true) , however, what I was not prepared for was the slippery slope in sharpening. But for my $.02, its the quality of the blade that makes nice hand tools a joy to work with...and I did not predict the obsession that can develop over sharpness...oh well, I am pre warning those who have not been pre warned about Neander slippery slope #2.

I have been bothered by setting new angles on chisels and plane blades at times.... very hard on the hands and fingers when doing them on rough stones.... I have tried grinders and 1" belt sanders.... but I always felt the Veritas Mk II power sharpening system was the ideal way to quickly sharpen, or re hone an angle.... I really liked the Ultra Flat surface area and the robust holding jig.... so the recent LV promotion for free shipping landed me this (I hate when that happens, damn you ROB! ;)


http://www.veritastools.com/Content/Assets/ProductLarge/EN/05M3101L.jpg


And, of course, to make sure my plane soles are dead flat, I opted for the 14lb Veritas Lapping plate (also during free shipping promotion)... how they can ship these two heavy boxes several thousand miles ~50lbs for free is beyond me.... thanks Rob, for the recession incentives :-(


http://www.veritastools.com/Content/Assets/ProductLarge/EN/05M2020L.jpg


Well these are my bits of wisdom that I have learned over the past few years... as like many of these crafts, not everything is in a book. Often you learn from experience, trial and error or from others. In my case, a lot of trial and error, and sore fingers and forearms :-)

.

[Phillip Pattee]

Thanks for the info Will. I used to use scary sharp and thought it was a great, cheap, alternative to stones. But then, I realized that I just wasn't getting my blades as sharp as I wanted. I concluded that the reason was because I was using up the abrasive on the paper and then, the scratches weren't as fine. So, I started replacing the paper more often. Once you start that, the cost savings starts to diminish rapidly.

I switched to Norton water stones and am much happier--the abrasive does constantly renew itself and this is much better. My experience with the diamond plates is the same as yours; I did not, however, invest is good quality diamond stones. They are the el cheapo from Grizzly and they are fine for rough jobs (like pruning shears, removing a knick, etc.)

After the 8000 stone, I finish on a leather strop loaded with LV sub-micron green stick. I wonder if the 15K and higher grit stones really produce a better edge than the strop. The strop and the green stick are much more economical than the really fine stones. So...do the 15K and 30K stones produce a better edge than stropping? Opinions and experience please.

[george wilson]

With respect,you have a very expensive,complex system for sharpening that is not necessary. Those flat lapping plates do not stay flat. I use a diamond stone,followed by a black,then a white ceramic,no jigs at all,but recently got a wet wheel grinder because it was cheap. I also strop the edges by hand. Years ago,my grinder was a bench grinder with white wheels,then a Wilton square wheel belt grinder. I've done the work you see in the FAQ section of this section with even simpler sharpening setups. For years I used a Norton India bench stone,followed by a Punjab razor stone,then a strop.

I have been well known in Williamsburg for the very sharp edges I can produce for 39 years. I suppose now that you have bought all those things,you should go ahead and use them if they make you happy.

[Eddie Darby]

Thanks for the great post!

I like this platter system.

http://www.lapsharp.com/

The ability to reverse the direction is nice when doing knife blades, and it can be used wet. The list of abrasives is wide and varied so any job can be tackled.

The key to any sharpening system is that the abrasive medium is flat!
As flat as you can get it, and this is where the Shapton flattening plates really excel at.

The one mistake that I see most often with sharpening is a failure to achieve and maintain this flatness.

[Will Blick]

Ed, yep, the value of stones was never fully written anyway when i started neandering, and I wandered everywhere before I settled on them being the ULTIMATE solution for getting perfectly flat and sharp edges... (this does not suggest its the only useful sharpening method)

Good point about the strops, I too have used them, and still do on occasion, but mainly for knives, not plane / chisel blades. The reason is... I can not keep the exact angles, as the leather base has flex in it, changing the angle right at the edge. this is critical at the higher levels of sharpening.... although the LV green strop is quite fine, probably 20k stone equiv. (just guessing), I never end up with the level of sharpness the 15k and 30k stones offer....hence why I surrendered to the stones. Had I not wasted all the $$ on the other failed methods, the stone costs would have seemed much less in the end....live n learn....

The fine diamond pastes OTOH benefit from an ultra flat surface.... but with the pastes, you start introducing swarf into the paste, changing the effective grit size.... I don't stay too long in one area to avoid this.... I can achieve equal results (sometimes better) with some excellent diamond pastes I have tried over the past year....its just more time consuming and messy vs. the stones. Some of the diamond paste tubes in the 1/4 micron range were costing me $30 per tube, so it can add up....


George, I am only sharing my experience with the forum. When you say what I am doing is not necessary, I have provided many examples where going that extra mile and getting edges ULTRA sharp has solved problems that nothing else has ever solved. So, in my experience, at times, ULTRA sharp edges are nice to have in my arsenal. I made it clear, in most cases, such as face planing common woods and common grain patterns (non burl or changing grain) , sharpening to 8k is good enough....

So far, the Shapton flattening plates have stayed dead flat, but its only been 1.5 years.... maybe in time they will not remain flat. Shapton has stood behind their products, and I notice if a flattening plate does not remain flat, they provide some type of exchange policy, can't ask more than this. Like all tools, they can wear, and a tune-up may be in order. The good news is, its easy to check the flatness of these plates with a good straight edge. The diamond stone by Shapton is a no fuss plate, I keep water running and just rub for 10 - 15 seconds and my stone is dead flat again. The trick I learned is, flatten the stone after every use, so it stays close to flat at all times...

I like the Lap Sharp also, I considered it as well. But since I buy from LV so often, I thought it would be more convenient to buy papers etc. from them. I like the fact they have a 1 micron paper....but for my taste, I still think the "fine" steps should be done with a stone and a jig.... the need to continual remove swarf is critical, which is still a problem with any power sanding system. Even the Lap Sharp video mentions this, and suggests WD40 to try to keep swarf off at the finer grits.

I use a 100x magnification system to see my results, this is how I learned the value of continually removing swarf during the strokes (constant water dripping over stone).... the scratch marks are noticeably finer when the swarf never builds up on the stone.... makes perfect sense, not sure how that one evaded me for so long....

And yes, I fully agree with your FLAT comment Ed.... When a stone is not perfectly flat, and the blade edge IS perfectly flat, often the edge will become less straight as the stone hits the edge more in some areas vs. other areas.... but this requires high magnification to really see and appreciate....

the other reasons I feel the stone is so critical at the high end, is the "feel" required for flattening the backs... on a power machine, I feel the swarf can be too aggressive on the back of the blades, regardless which way the wheel turns.... I like the ability to "feel" the flatness of the back on the stone.... and see the results when I move the blade on the stone...

Ed, yep, the value of stones was never fully written anyway when i started neandering, and I wandered everywhere before I settled on them being the ULTIMATE solution for getting perfectly flat and sharp edges... (this does not suggest its the only useful sharpening method)

Good point about the strops, I too have used them, and still do on occasion, but mainly for knives, not plane / chisel blades. The reason is... I can not keep the exact angles, as the leather base has flex in it, changing the angle right at the edge. this is critical at the higher levels of sharpening.... although the LV green strop is quite fine, probably 20k stone equiv. (just guessing), I never end up with the level of sharpness the 15k and 30k stones offer....hence why I surrendered to the stones. Had I not wasted all the $$ on the other failed methods, the stone costs would have seemed much less in the end....live n learn....

The fine diamond pastes OTOH benefit from an ultra flat surface.... but with the pastes, you start introducing swarf into the paste, changing the effective grit size.... I don't stay too long in one area to avoid this.... I can achieve equal results (sometimes better) with some excellent diamond pastes I have tried over the past year....its just more time consuming and messy vs. the stones. Some of the diamond paste tubes in the 1/4 micron range were costing me $30 per tube, so it can add up....


George, I am only sharing my experience with the forum. When you say what I am doing is not necessary, I have provided many examples where going that extra mile and getting edges ULTRA sharp has solved problems that nothing else has ever solved. So, in my experience, at times, ULTRA sharp edges are nice to have in my arsenal. I made it clear, in most cases, such as face planing common woods and common grain patterns (non burl or changing grain) , sharpening to 8k is good enough....

So far, the Shapton flattening plates have stayed dead flat, but its only been 1.5 years.... maybe in time they will not remain flat. Shapton has stood behind their products, and I notice if a flattening plate does not remain flat, they provide some type of exchange policy, can't ask more than this. Like all tools, they can wear, and a tune-up may be in order. The good news is, its easy to check the flatness of these plates with a good straight edge. The diamond stone by Shapton is a no fuss plate, I keep water running and just rub for 10 - 15 seconds and my stone is dead flat again. The trick I learned is, flatten the stone after every use, so it stays close to flat at all times...

I like the Lap Sharp also, I considered it as well. But since I buy from LV so often, I thought it would be more convenient to buy papers etc. from them. I like the fact they have a 1 micron paper....but for my taste, I still think the "fine" steps should be done with a stone and a jig.... the need to continual remove swarf is critical, which is still a problem with any power sanding system. Even the Lap Sharp video mentions this, and suggests WD40 to try to keep swarf off at the finer grits.

I use a 100x magnification system to see my results, this is how I learned the value of continually removing swarf during the strokes (constant water dripping over stone).... the scratch marks are noticeably finer when the swarf never builds up on the stone.... makes perfect sense, not sure how that one evaded me for so long....

And yes, I fully agree with your FLAT comment Ed.... When a stone is not perfectly flat, and the blade edge IS perfectly flat, often the edge will become less straight as the stone hits the edge more in some areas vs. other areas.... but this requires high magnification to really see and appreciate....

the other reasons I feel the stone is so critical at the high end, is the "feel" required for flattening the backs... on a power machine, I feel the swarf can be too aggressive on the back of the blades, regardless which way the wheel turns.... I like the ability to "feel" the flatness of the back on the stone.... and see the results when I move the blade on the stone...

[george wilson]

Why the huge print? It takes up a lot of vertical space.



How do you think the makers of all our masterpieces for hundreds of years managed to get their tools sharp?

There is no substitute for learning skill,and that is the truth,no insult intended.

[Will Blick]

George


1) I edited my previous post, and tried to make the print smaller, let me know if this is more pleasing....


2) How to keep cast iron plate flat? I did address this above. So far, it has remained FLAT...if it fails the flatness test, i will contact Shapton and see if they will honor a trade-in. If not, the $169 plate, if it lasts me 3 - 5 years, I would consider it a tool that requires replacing after x amount of years. This assumes I can not flatten it for less than a new tool. A machine shop could easily flatten this surface.... I blow through power drills every two years, no one stands behind them.... nothing last forever....


3) > How do you think the makers of all our masterpieces for hundreds of years managed to get their tools sharp?

I am not following your thinking here? Are you suggesting we should only use the techniques and sharpening products which were available 100+ years ago? For some, that may appeal to them. For me, I like using new innovations and improved techniques that come with time. Thats just me....woodworking means different things to different people, not sure why this upsets you so much?


4) > There is no substitute for learning skill,and that is the truth,no insult intended.


No insult taken George, as I agree 100%. Learning is EXACTLY what I have experienced over the past few years experimenting with many different sharpenign products / techniques. This has perfected my sharpening skills.... I am much more knowledgeable today than a year ago.

[george wilson]

I am saying that the masterpieces were not made by having a fortune tied up in sharpening equipment. A few simple stones,maybe a strop were it. I learned to sharpen by myself,and others ought to also,if their goal is to become good woodworkers. We don't really need a bench full of crutches. I do not consider buying a bunch of crutches as learning,certainly not wisdom. Learning is learning how to do something by developing personal skill,not relying on a bunch of jigs.

Then again,it's your hobby,enjoy the toys. What else can I say? None of the other master craftsmen I worked with ever used anything but simple stones and skill.

The huge print just wastes space in the forum.Other fora I visit object to large print. I don't care personally.

[Will Blick]

George, I don't think I made any claims of what type of tools or sharpening aids are required to build masterpieces. My post was about sharing my experience with many different sharpening tools / techniques. Not sure how the transition was made to "building masterpieces".... I re read my post, I see no reference to such.


What you consider a "bench full of crutches", I consider a "bench full of tools" that assist in furthering one area of my ww hobby. While I agree that buying such tools alone does not create skill, I felt my OP did a good job explaining that I actually use these tools. It's a lot of practice combined with trial and error, that has made me a more knowledgeable and skilled sharpener than a few years ago.


> Then again,it's your hobby, enjoy the toys.

toys = tools? Typo I assume?



> None of the other master craftsmen I worked with ever used anything but simple stones


I too use simple stones? What can be more simple than a stone? So maybe we are on the same page?

[Mark Koury]

An interesting thread. Application of technology to make our life better. (That reminds me of the 60’s - “Better Living Through Chemistry”)

Another vote for Shapton Glass Stone series and the Lap Sharp machine. The Shaptons will cut fast on A2 and quickly give the desired secondary bevel. The LV honing guide is the best I have used as well. I do grind the bevel on a wheel but I have never been able to freehand hone. So, I use a honing guide and hone a double micro-bevel, slightly higher than the original ground bevel. (Works for me!) For quick and dirty back-to-work sharpening, I can raise a decent micro-bevel hand-held using the Lap Sharp followed by leather honing. However, there is NOTHING that beats the way the Lap Sharp can finish the back of a blade. I can buy old beat-up chisels and have a new flat back in no time. Works well and fast and is water cooled! It will also grind flat bevels if you have invested in Japanese chisels. (I have not).

I only wish I had the skill that George has accumulated over the years. Those of us who are sharpening duffers have to depend on technology to get to a quick and sharp edge. I don’t have another life-time to get really good at this! I’m into woodworking, not metalworking. BTW, I have not tried the concept of a hypersharp blade. I usually stop at 8000. Maybe I’ll have to try that?

[Will Blick]

Great points Mark...

What do you mean by the Lap Sharp is Water cooled? the sanding surface?
> BTW, I have not tried the concept of a hypersharp blade. I usually stop at 8000. Maybe I’ll have to try that?

Once you do, you will never go back, you have been pre-warned...

[Sean Hughto]

One man's "crutch" is another man's useful tool. A plane is essentially a jig to hold a chisel. Is using a plane somehow a bow to lack of skill? The list of possible examples is long. The woodwork is what counts.

[Mark Koury]

What perhaps I should point out is that the LapSharp is water-proof. You can set up a continuous drip of water to cool the grind. It even has a drain system.

[george wilson]

No,toys. I think of my tools as toys if I'm having fun using them. Grown ups toys cost more than children's toys,too.

A very sad story I heard was about an old woodworker burning his tools because they caused him so much trouble and work. I like to keep it lighter than that,though no doubt life was terrible for many craftsmen in the past.

[phil harold]

Will,
How much have you spent on sharpening equipment?

I am still using the same stones I used 20 years ago

There will always be the "newest and improved" on the market so you can layout some more dough, But do we really need it, or as George said are these your "toys" (then you will always be buying the newest and best :o)

[Will Blick]

I have spent less on sharpening equipment than I have on hand planes... so in the big scheme of Neander, I consider the sharpening equip very worthwhile... most of this stuff will last my lifetime...

Glad your 20 yr stones are still working, I hope I can say the same thing in 17 years.... when my equip has its 20 yr anniversary....

[george wilson]

I must admit I am a tool pig,and have way too many tools. I can't even find places to put them all in a 1552 sq.ft. home shop.

[Will Blick]

Ahhhhhh...the truth surfaces.... I am therefore surprised at the position you took towards my post.... tool hording is half the fun....

[jerry nazard]

I must admit I am a tool pig,and have way too many tools. I can't even find places to put them all in a 1552 sq.ft. home shop.


1552 sq. ft. shop. Ouch! Just the other day I was thinking to myself: "Self, that George fellow in Williamsburg seems like a real nice person...." <gr>

[george wilson]

Yes,but I buy useful tools. There is a difference. I still use personal skill and a few stones and a strop for sharpening. I got a wet stone grinder only because I happened upon 1 for 1/3 price new in the box.

[Will Blick]

> Yes,but I buy useful tools. There is a difference.


OK, I get it now.... my tools are not "useful", instead, they fall under the "useless" category. I now better understand your position, thanks for clarifying George. ? :-(

[Sean Hughto]

George, I can't hear your tone over these internets, so I can't tell if you are chuckling or being provocative. I hope you are kidding. Looking down your nose at someone because they prefer sharpening jigs is silly.

[Maurice Ungaro]

George, I can't hear your tone over these internets, so I can't tell if you are chuckling or being provocative. I hope you are kidding. Looking down your nose at someone because they prefer sharpening jigs is silly.

Yup, and life is short, so let's all play nice.

[george wilson]

It was a chuckle. One reason I have too much stuff is that I have a complete machine shop and wood shop. Actually,the woodshop takes up much less space than the machine shop. I started getting into metal working more seriously in 1974. I had a small shop at home,and wanted something different to do in the evenings. This led me to being asked to become the toolmaker for the museum in 1986. After all those years in public,and poor lighting,I accepted that behind the scenes job. In 1974,in the little home shop, I got a lathe,then a small milling machine. That shop was about 10' X 7'. in it I had a 12" lathe,a small milling machine,a floor drill press,a die filer,a bench grinder,and a 30" X 4' workbench. There was about 20" or so of space for me to stand in. I had that shop for 12 years. Before that,I had had a full basement only for woodworking. I had to loan out my woodworking machines when I came to Williamsburg because I had no room for them. That was in 1970. I didn't get them back until 1983,when I was able to buy a house with a 1 1/2 car garage. Stayed there till 2004,and got larger machine tools.

Fortunately,I had access to the woodworking backup shop in Williamsburg when I needed to saw and plane wood. It was a bare bones shop,though. Just the machines were there,and no one took care of them except me. There was nothing in that room but the machines. You had to bring your own pencil,rule,square,etc.

When we moved here I was able to have land enough to draw plans for a 30' X 40' 2 story building.The ground floor was attached to an existing 16' x 22' garage. the top floor is our home business,which my wife runs. I help with making some of the models,and make the tooling. It is a jewelry business.

So,it has actually taken me many years to have this shop,and now I have disabilitys.

[Tom Godley]

The problem that I run into as a part time woodworker is that I do not do some tasks often enough to become proficient - sharpening is one of them.

Having found that sharp tools make a huge difference in the quality and the ease of use - I like to get them as sharp as my skills allow.

I recently purchased the sharpton system as well as the Sharp Skate to help me do a better job on my chisels. I am not sure how long it would take me to get good at doing them freehand or how many I would mess up but I really do not want to spend the time.

The more I play around the better I become but it takes time.

[John Keeton]

I hesitated to get into this thread - it has the overtones of many of the other threads on sharpening, tablesaw flatness, etc.

But, I do so only to comment on the wonderful mix of woodworkers, artists, and craftspeople that we have on SMC. I could only dream of having the artistry skills, and creative ability of George Wilson. And, I doubt I could ever accomplish the edge work of Will, and many others on this forum that concentrate on the extreme sharpness of their tools. My tablesaw will never be as flat as those of the many machinists and engineers that measure stuff with increments that my aging eyes just can't deal with.

In the end, we are all different. I fall in to the category of using my scary sharp board to achieve a mirror edge that will easily shave hairs and pulls a .001 shaving with little effort. It is good enough for me - but, probably would not meet the expectations of many others. My woodworking is satisfactory (at times:o) to me, but would not be at all acceptable to many on this forum.

We all really need to celebrate our differences, rather than compare our differences. I doubt anyone is going to convince me that I need to change my sharpening methods - even though I fully realize that my edges could be sharper and smoother. It just doesn't have that much importance to me. On the woodworking, I am continually striving to improve, but if I demanded the skill level of George and others before I produced, I would not produce anything! My tablesaw is as flat as it is going to get, notwithstanding that I have never put a micrometer on it, and don't care to.

I say all that to say this. SMC is such a great place, the wisdom and level of knowledge here is amazing. We are such a diverse group, with diverse interests, and with so much to offer to the community. Perhaps we should keep in mind that it is just a woodworking forum, and it is not mandatory that we convince each other that our individual methods are the "end all." They are just that, our methods. Offer them up as that, and if they benefit others that is good, if not, nothing lost. With the exception of the few that know each other on a personal basis, we are all connected only through "cyberspace" and for the other portion of our day, we must interact with others face to face. I dare say we are easier to get along with in that world than we sometimes are here. I find that amazing quite honestly.

I have enjoyed the input of all to this thread. Even amongst the exchange, I learned a few things - as I always do on the creek!

[george wilson]

Tom,if your table saw is as flat as a probishionist's head (sp?),you'll be o.k.. :)

[Derek Cohen]

First of all, Will thank you for the time and thought that went into your post.

Sharpening seems to bring out so many emotions in woodworkers. It is one of those topics that everyone has an opinion about simply because everyone can do it ... well they must do it otherwise there would be no woodworking.

Newbies proudly show off their first blade. There is always someone who can achieve a higher level. Explorers investigate equipment and technique. We all gain from this. Those that are skilled help others develop similar skills. We all benefit from sharing.

Woodworking is about using sharp blades, not about sharpening blades. It is easy to lose your way here and keep investing in sharpening equipment. But it is just as easy for some critiques to forget that they were once newbies themselves, with questions to answer and skills to hone.

The issue that I see omitted in discussions on sharpening is "what is your aim when sharpening ... do you have a sharpening strategy?". This to me is an important question. You will continue to purchase or acquire more and more sharpening tools until you know what result you seek.

There are many different woodworking blades to sharpen and some require different technique. For example, bevel up plane blades do require a change of mind set if you are used to bevel down planes. I wrote an article about this a short while ago, which some may find helpful ... http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/BeyondSharpASharpeningStrategy.html

Enough for now.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Keller NC]

Getting back to the original topic of the thread...

A comment about Norton's waterstones. I've got Nortons, Kings, and Shaptons (all picked up when a few powertool guys decided handtools weren't for them and sold them at a discount).

I use the Nortons most often, primarily because they're the first ones I bought and I have the greatest familiarity with their quirks - which brings me to the topic of this post and Will's observation about Norton's 8k stone not being fine enough.

I've also found this to be the case if the stone is used in its native state - i.e., fresh out of the box or the top surface dressed with either a coarse diamond plate or the norton flattening stone. Both of these treatments result in a surface on the stone that has some "grab" to the touch, and closely resembles the stone new out of the box. The surface it leaves on steel blades is hazy.

It took me a while to discover this, but the Norton 8k yellow stone benefits from being flattened by a 400 grit wet-dry paper on a flat surface. It seems that the SiC grit does something a bit different to the stone, and it will emerge from this treatment, especially after the sheet of sandpaper has been used 4 or 5 times, with a very slick, glazed surface. But it will still cut steel very effectively - the result is an absolute mirror polish with no visible scratches or hazy patches, even under magnification. And the difference of the blade/chisel between one "polished" on the Norton in its native state and polished on the Norton after glazing/flattening it on SiC wet/dry is pronounced. In particular, a chisel sharpened at 25 degrees with a 30 degree microbevel will effortlessly produce a coherent shaving from the end grain of soft white pine, while the same chisel polished on the Norton in its native state will not.

My guess is that a blade/chisel polished on the native-state Norton 8K could be brought to a very high sharpness on a strop, and I do use this method to tune-up my blades in the shop in the middle of a project, but I thought other creekers that have the Norton japanese waterstones might want to try this - glazing a stone is, of course, undesirable in the lower grits where fast cutting is the objective, but the high-grit polishing stone does seem to benefit greatly from the glazing that occurs on wet/dry fine sandpaper.

[Maurice Ungaro]

David,
Have you tried a nagura stone on the 4000 and 8000 grit Norton's? I was instructed to do it that way, but have not tried your paper method.

[David Keller NC]

David,
Have you tried a nagura stone on the 4000 and 8000 grit Norton's? I was instructed to do it that way, but have not tried your paper method.

Yes, I've used an Ice Bear synthetic Nagura on the 8000 grit. However, I found that to be disadvantageous, at least used as per the method recommended by Charlesworth - using the Nagura to work up a slurry that's then left on the stone. At least with the Nagura I have, the grit in the slurry was rather obviously coarser than the stone - it left big ugly scratches on the back of a LN blade I was polishing.

[Will Blick]

> First of all, Will thank you for the time and thought that went into your post.


Derek, in addition to all your other talents, what you did above seems to be a lost art in internet forums. When someone takes a lot of their personal time to share information that could benefit many other readers, you would think it would be appreciated. (A few other posters also did the same, thank you) Instead, the first people to surface are the spear chuckers, who need to bash your findings. I have always marveled at how internet forums demonstrate the sad reality of human nature. Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to thank me, as I have always done for your very informative posts in the past. If Superstars like you leave the forum, there will be more questions than answers in the forum. While the Creek is better than most forums in this regard, it certainly is not immune to this sad reality.


I fully support your "sharing skills" and experiences... and that is what I attempted. I also want to be clear.... when I used hand tools before becoming a semi-neander, I would have been more than happy with a 2k sharpened hand plane blade. I also was happy with a bike before I got my first car. As often in life, some areas, we desire to take to the next level, and yes, that happened with me in the sharpening arena. When I started using hand tools more often, I start seeing the value of ULTRA sharp blades "FOR CERTAIN APPLICATIONS".... those CAPS are for a reason...... cause most people overlook I had written this several times.... I never proposed everyone should have ULTRA sharp blades on all their tools. I also do not propose that everyone ONLY own Festool powertools... make sense?


In my case, I knew exactly what i wanted in sharpening..... I kept refining the tools and my techniques for the way I work.... in the end, I want to spend as little time as possible sharpening while still achieving the edges I desire. I am damn close to that goal. It is also forgotten, this is a hobby.... sometimes the joy of working with a hand tool that performs like a Rolls Royce is part of the enjoyment. I did get hooked on that a bit, but as I see it, its better to get hooked on ultra sharp blades than cocaine / alcohol. Its a healthy obsession, yet, others see my endeavor as foolish / absurd.... oh well....


David, I would like to comment on anther issue I have learned with stones.... the grit ratings from makers seem not be uniform between makers. As you know, there is no monitoring agency in this field :-). For a newb, who wants to sharpen with progressing stones, I now see a huge advantage in buying all the stones from the maker, preferably the same line of stones as well.... For example, I would rate the Norton 8k stone equal to the Shapton 4k ceramic stone in grit. And this is with a well flattened Norton, exposing all new abrasive. As once I came off my 4k shapton, and went to the 8k Norton, and under my 100x magnifier, the scratch marks never got smaller.... vs. when I jumped to my 8K shapton, they were obviously smaller. So, there is a lot of issues which can further confuse the sharpening discussions. The same is true with diamond paste.... makers can easily mis label a paste to demand a higher price. I am not suggesting the Norton is not a true 8k, as I don't what a true 8k is, I am only suggesting, its not the same grit as the Shapton ceramic 8k. So this can add confusion to the discussions.

The other point about sharpening is the metal itself. All the best sharpening stones will not create a perfect edge on inferior metals. I compared the LV A2 blades with some old plane blades I had laying around (20 yr old Home depot models)....and the cheap blades will not take an edge like the better blades which have probably benefited from advances heat treatment and metallurgy. I find the same true with kitchen knives. I finally bit the bullet and bought some high end Japanese kitchen knives.... as others have raved about the quality of their metal.... wow, this turned out to be sooo true. I have never experienced knifes this sharp.... my $50 knives with all these high end stones proved to be useless, as the metal was the weak link in the chain.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Yes, I've used an Ice Bear synthetic Nagura on the 8000 grit. However, I found that to be disadvantageous, at least used as per the method recommended by Charlesworth - using the Nagura to work up a slurry that's then left on the stone. At least with the Nagura I have, the grit in the slurry was rather obviously coarser than the stone - it left big ugly scratches on the back of a LN blade I was polishing.

Interesting! I've got to try your paper trick. Come to think of it, I'm sure SOMETHING needs the attention of my 8000 grit stone. Thanks for the tip.

[David Keller NC]

"David, I would like to comment on anther issue I have learned with stones.... the grit ratings from makers seem not be uniform between makers. As you know, there is no monitoring agency in this field :-). For a newb, who wants to sharpen with progressing stones, I now see a huge advantage in buying all the stones from the maker, preferably the same line of stones as well.... For example, I would rate the Norton 8k stone equal to the Shapton 4k ceramic stone in grit. And this is with a well flattened Norton, exposing all new abrasive. As once I came off my 4k shapton, and went to the 8k Norton, and under my 100x magnifier, the scratch marks never got smaller.... vs. when I jumped to my 8K shapton, they were obviously smaller. So, there is a lot of issues which can further confuse the sharpening discussions. The same is true with diamond paste.... makers can easily mis label a paste to demand a higher price. I am not suggesting the Norton is not a true 8k, as I don't what a true 8k is, I am only suggesting, its not the same grit as the Shapton ceramic 8k. So this can add confusion to the discussions."

I think you're quite right on this. Unlike sandpaper, which has industrial standards for particle size and particle size distribution for each grit, I'm thinking that different methods are probably used by different makers to assess the effective grit of an oil/water stone.

If you want to read more about this, there is an excellent discussion about why different water stones are matched up with different tools steels by Japanese craftsmen in Toshio Odate's Japanese WoodWorking Tools.

[Will Blick]

David... do you happen to have a link? Thanks

[Derek Cohen]

Will, you wrote "This weekend I was trying to plane some end grain on a shooting board, desert dried, maple and cherry. I was amazed how a good blade, sharpened to 8k could not plane the end grain of these woods...it would scrape the end grain, which made dust.... but the slightest blade advancement would eventually lead to the blade getting stuck in the wood, as the blade was simply not sharp enough to cut this nasty dried end grain. When I used the same plane on the woods face grain, it produced gorgeous .002" shavings, plenty sharp. Another example, of "how sharp is sharp enough"....

So I dropped a few degrees on the angle, and went to 30k stone on this blade, and it sliced this same stubborn end grain like butter. See-through shavings with ease. Another case where "sharper" is the simple and effective solution".

Perhaps it is time to consider the components in planing. There is a percentage of user skill added to a percentage of tool preparation.

With regard to user skill, I have not had any difficulty planing hardwood endgrain with blades of 8000 grit. Trust me when I say that the hardwoods I use are Hard. Further, I have no difficulty doing so with planes with high cutting angles, such as a 60 degree HNT Gordon Trying Plane.

Here is the Gordon on the shooting board ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Setting%20Up%20and%20Using%20a%20Shooting%20Board4 _html_m7c284729.jpg

I therefore question whether the lack of sufficient sharpeness was the reason that your plane failed. If so, what could it be? Technique?

What about tool preparation? Well I think that even the best technique is going to fail if the tool is improperly prepared. I don't believe that this was the case here, but I must ask why a 30K medium was necessary to produce a change? (of course, this may have simply been a chance occurrence, since removing and replacing the blade may have altered the set up).

So, what type of blade (steel) in what type of plane and at what cutting angle?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Randy Klein]

I have plans to develop a fast method for applying a front / back bevel (as Brent Beach has endorsed) for quick re-honing of my BU plane blades, more on that when I have the system perfected...


I've been using my home-made (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=97517), Brent-inspired sharpening jig for awhile now and I'm hooked. I've never had sharper plane irons in a quicker amount of time. This system works for BU, BD, big, small, skewed, etc. plane irons.

Chisels are still honed freehand though. Jigging up those is just inefficient.

[David Keller NC]

David... do you happen to have a link? Thanks

Will - Not sure what you mean by a link - to CAMI or FEPA grit specifications, or Toshio Odate's book?

Here's Toshio's book - I'd guess you could readily get it from your local library through InterLibrary Loan, though it is an inexpensive book and I highly recommend it to anyone interested in the Eastern way of doing things:

http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Woodworking-Tools-Tradition-Spirit/dp/0941936465/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248269465&sr=1-1

[Will Blick]

Derek, I am using a Marcou M12 Miter plane

http://www.marcouplanes.co.nz/images/stories/planes/m12/m12-top1-av.jpg

This plane is so damn heavy (9 lbs), its hard to have wrong technique, its heft goes through anything. The end grain I was trying to cut through was all desert dried, sitting my wood storage shed, often 120 degrees with <7% humidity all year. After some time, the end grain starts appearing like its petrified. Later I had made some fresh cuts in some newer wood, and it cut much easier, even with a less sharpened blade. This once again is the difference in fine details we all encounter. It was a great experiment..... interestingly enough, the shavings where barely see-though...yet, when you tried to pull the shavings apart, they had tremendous resistance, even when tissue thin....this is from excessive drying... As an experiment, i also dipped the end grain in water for a few hours, removed, and the next day, it was noticeably easier to get shavings.

same technique, same shooter, same plane....all blades are A2 or D2... I tried them with my LV BU Jack as well, total failure on these nasty end grains. I even had some soft pine, which I could NOT get end grain shavings from, till I cut away the end to expose some fresher end grain.... yet, the face planing produced the most gorgeous tissue paper.... This was a great lesson in understanding how endgrain dries fast when left exposed, which is why they cover end grain when the purposely dry wood... it absorbs much to fast vs. the rest of the wood....

Randy, thanks for sharing your findings and encouragement on the Beach method, when I have time, I have plans to make a nice simplified approach for the double sided bevels...

David, sorry, i was not aware that was a book you referencing.... thanks

[Jack Clark]

Will,

I realize there's been a lot of recent excitement in this forum getting in the way of the friendly exchange of information that normally occurs here. But in spite of all the distractions, I was wondering if you've had a chance to try out your Veritas MkII Power Sharpening System yet? I'm kinda in the market for such a device (but not a WorkSharp).

[Will Blick]

Hi Jack, sorry, but I have not worked with it yet... AC died in the garage, its 120 degrees :-)

I suggest you post a new thread for this, you will get lots of responses...once I use mine, I will report on that thread....

[Danny Thompson]

Derek, I am using a Marcou M12 Miter plane

http://www.marcouplanes.co.nz/images/stories/planes/m12/m12-top1-av.jpg



. . . so it's a problem with poor equipment? :eek:

[Will Blick]

Danny, I don't follow your question... or comment...or was it sarcasm? I really don't know, not being confrontational...

[Tom Godley]

Will -- does Sharpton make a diamond plate just for stones over 2000?

I have the one on glass - not the double sided metal plate

[John Keeton]

Danny, I don't follow your question... or comment...or was it sarcasm? I really don't know, not being confrontational...Will, it probably isn't relevant how I took Danny's comment, but to me he was being complimentary on the beautiful Marcou plane and drawing a contrast to "poor equipment." Just my take. I would say nerves are a little raw after this thread, and everyone's guard is up a bit. Glad the seas have calmed!

[Dan Karachio]

$600-700 for the two flattening plates mentioned by the OP. The Lie Nielsen guys never mentioned needing anything like this.

This reminds me of audiophiles and wine tasting, where once you get into the stratospheric pricing the subtle improvements vs. the cost-benefit get very fuzzy.

One of the early posters had it right. We can look at mirror surfaces and shavings all day, or we can look at the work produced. I'd like to see an example of where a $500 flattening stone resulted in a superior piece of furniture or wood working in comparison to a guy who used a flat piece of glass and some sand paper.

[John Keeton]

Dan, don't go there!! The flames have died down -

[Eric Brown]

What is the point in getting see-through shavings on end grain? Most good furniture designs cover up the endgrain making it's smoothness irrelevant. lately I've been seeing magazine articles on distressing the wood with hammers, chains, etc., so it looks old. I had to laugh. Having a perfectly smooth finish and perfect joints seems to look too machine made. While I agree that sharp blades are necessary, I really don't think that super-sharp lasts long enough to be useful most the time. Special cases (like your desert dried) maybe. Most the time, no.

The time spent super-sharpening (and keeping your stones flat) would be better spent on design and wood selection.

I bet George uses a card scraper on almost every project. Probably more important than his plane blades. George?

Where I disagree with George is the use of sharpening jigs. He was a professional who worked with his tools every day and knows how they are working and when they need sharpened. Most of us don't do this as a living and we may never become as proficient as he is. (We can try though!) I think a sharpening guide makes my sharpening more consistant and faster,allowing me more time for woodworking.

Just my 1 cent worth. (taxes)

Eric

[Dan Karachio]

Dan, don't go there!! The flames have died down -

Sorry! No flames or breeze intended!!! I looked back at this and another thread and had no idea how much kitty scratchin was going on lately!

Honestly, there is a humor side to all this. I used to get into audio and the guys who sat around talking about their "liquid smooth midrange that perfectly represented the subtle phlegm of the vocalist..." and only listed to music known for it's recording characteristics just cracked me up. It was just so much hogwash. No matter how accessory crazed, at least people here are all do something productive with their tools.

[John Keeton]

No matter how accessory crazed, at least people here are all do something productive with their tools.And, I think that is the point! Each to their own - this world (and SMC) is big enough for all!

[Will Blick]

> Will -- does Sharpton make a diamond plate just for stones over 2000?

Yes, see my OP, 3rd pix down... I have used this for almost 2 years, still dead flat, contrary to what others have claimed about the product (who never owned or used the product ;-)

Thanks John K, I was just trying to respond to Danny, but did not know how? Yes, the seas have calmed... at least for now.... I equate this blow-out, to the Obama - Cambridge police incident. How that police officer wishes he did not play hard ball with a friend of the Presidents. The moral to the story on all these forums is.... you never know who you are picking a fight with.... a few people actually fight back, and then, the bully's get rattled.... forums mimic life in many ways. It was remarkable how many people wrote me off list, taking the position, "I wish I could do that" ....or "he needed that"...etc.

Dan K, your point is well received.... I hear ya... it seems this same scenario is true in every field, once you start diggin, you find more bits n pieces that are required to get to the next level.... As for your "finished product" differences.... There is a many ways to skin a cat in this field... sand paper will solve a lot of problems too.... so will scrapers... The thread which would answer your question would be called... "most cost effective methods to produce the proper final surface".

My goal was to share what I learned, and the products that I purchased along the way...... the good, the bad, and the ugly. In my case, the quest was well worth it. Just wish I could have found others who already blazed this trail before me. Then, maybe, I could have avoided some of the R&D.....

I never suggest that people should buy any of this.... just like I never suggest they buy high end audio gear....although I was suckered into that too....


> Dan, don't go there!! The flames have died down -

hee hee.... too funny John K.... Dans comments were innocent and welcomed... certainly not a personal attack, but your humor is welcomed change-up!


> What is the point in getting see-through shavings on end grain? Most good furniture designs cover up the endgrain making it's smoothness irrelevant.


Hi Eric.... This may be true for upholstered furniture. For those who cover the joint, I agree it would be senseless. In my case, one of my primary applications is very high end picture frames. Some frames I sell are in the $3k price range. Sometimes I make the moldings, sometimes I buy them. The quality of that miter joint is often put under a microscope by clients. I have made picture frames 20ft long, so I often have a joint in the middle of the frame as well, so I must join end grain to end grain.... so to me, the glass like end-grain will improve my final product.... in your case, it sounds like you have no application for it.......



> The time spent super-sharpening (and keeping your stones flat) would be better spent on design and wood selection.


Not sure if this is directed towards me, or a general statement, but as you can see, in my case, I will benefit greatly from cleaner end grain... And, as mentioned previously, once set up, the entire re-honing of these ultra sharp blades takes 3 minutes max.... so not sure how that 3 minutes can offer much in terms of wood selection or design, at least in my case, your mileage may vary. But thanks for the suggestion...



>Each to their own - this world (and SMC) is big enough for all!


John K, why can't everyone think like you, peaceful, fairness and common sense.... thanks for being the new "voice of reason".... a breath of fresh air after the storm...

The other message from these exchanges is.... ask, don't assume. But we all know how rarely that gets executed in a forum :-)

[Mark Maleski]

What is the point in getting see-through shavings on end grain? Most good furniture designs cover up the endgrain making it's smoothness irrelevant.

I can't agree with that - exposed dovetails abound in fine woodworking. Heck, they're even on the Fine Woodworking Magazine logo. More to the point, I think I've used a shooting board on just about every project so far. Whether the end grain will be exposed or buried in a dado, I don't want to grind and chatter my way across it. If I'm not producing shavings it's time to sharpen. I have no idea if the shavings are see-through though...nor do I care!

Mark Maleski
Herndon, VA

[george wilson]

I haven't said that smooth end grain is not important. End grain is seen sometimes,and does need to be nice. I get my planes sharp enough to plane end grain too.

[Mark Maleski]

I haven't said that smooth end grain is not important.

George, I don't think that statement was ever attributed to you. :)

[Tom Godley]

I still do not understand the over 2000.

HMS demonstrates both of the lapping plates being used on all the stones - not just the 2000 and above

[Will Blick]

Hi Tom....

The min. 2000 grit for the DLP came from Harrleson, the importer of Shapton stones....

I did a quick Google for you...

The DRLP is used to flatten 1000 grit to 30000 grit Shapton® stones. Never use the DRLP to lap stones coarser than 1000 grit.

at this site
http://shaptonstones.com/index.php?main_page=page_2

I assume Harrleson suggests 2k to be safe on the DLP.... due to its price, I guess its a safety margin....

In addition, I use this lapping plate, for use with their glass stones...

http://www.shaptonstones.com/index.php?main_page=page_3

Maybe this one has the min. 2k.... call and inquire to be sure...

[Archie England]

In a post on "wisdom" related to sharpening, I have a question: Bang for the buck?

I started with the scary sharp method. Why? Duh, it's the cheapest. Well, until I bought a 3/8 piece of tempered glass, and granite, and loads of sandpaper. What's wrong with this? Nothing! But I still don't get great, fabulous fantastic results. So, I buy a Veritas Mk II honing guide. My results get better; but, still, how do I sharpen my turning tools, skews, carving tools, knives? Arghhhhh.

I bought a Tormek. It's the real deal. Of course, I violate my neander permit for Galoot hand tool woodworking; but, it's for the right cause. Turning tools, chisels, skews, plane blades get incredibly sharp!!!!! REPEATABLE and dependable. Can't stress the value of sharpening that is repeatable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

However, do you have a time to establish or re-establish a primary bevel. Chisels and planeblades can take forever...if you don't know the secret handshake for shortening this (a.k.a, diamond truing the stone before a serious session and frequent stoning back to 220 grit since the wheel tends to shift toward 1,000 with use). Cheap; heavens NO!!!!!!!! Dependable, messy, repeatable, messy; absolutely YES. Great machine.

Now, I've outed my indulgences in sharpening methods, well, except for the Norton waterstones I've attempted to use, the half dozen Ark. stones I've inherited, the eventual addition of the Oneway Wolverine--well, I already had an 8 inch grinder (oh, that was after I got rid of the 6" grinder).


WHAT PEOPLE==NEWCOMERS, that is, need is some weighted opinions about all these systems. I finally found a club and folks who would take me and s.h.o.w. me the hows and what's of doing it better, right, and well. Sharpening ought not be the holy grail of woodworking. I believe, that given the right opportunity, I could learn to free hand blades; BUT GUYS, I'M NOT THERE YET!!!

If any of you care to do so, weight your recommendations on a 5 point scale, for ease of use, repeatable angles, initial cost, and continual cost. My Tormek literally made woodworking fun, because I can cut fantastic shavings on whatever plane I use. It works! But, it's a 1 on initial cost; that's bad. But it's a 5 on repeatable and on continued expense. There's been none. My wheel gets lots of use, but I've still got plenty left before I shell out for a new $140 stone (no doubt there; it really works). Ease of use; I'd rate it about a 3 for a beginner.

Scary sharp method just kept nickle-ing and dime-ing me, constistantly. Flat, non-flexible, really really flat surfaces ain't cheap. But, I don't want to go back to this method. It's not a consistent, repeatable winner for me.

Okay, enough from me. Please rate your sharpening system. Let's give the newbies some real facts about initial and continual cost, use, and repeatablility. I hope then that we can all live with the reality that's many ways to get to the same goal. Right, well, that's just what works FOR EACH OF US.

no rant intended.

thank you for you time.


"we'll leave the light on..."

[John Keeton]

Archie, I am going to be the first to wade in. I have only been in this sharpening game for a little over a year. I have a scary sharp board (hanging under the window to the left of my bench in the shop tour thread) that runs from 150 - 2,000, with a piece of mdf with mineral oil and green compound. I have only chisels and planes to sharpen, and I can quickly get a polished edge that will effortlessly lift hair from my arm. I get .001 shavings, with that ever so sweet sound. That is enough for me. The chisels will melt across poplar end grain. That is enough for me. My initial cost was about $100, and I probably have a 5 year supply of sandpaper - or more. However, I realize there are valid methods to satisfy the needs of others.

[Joel Goodman]

I use two DMT stones, a coarse (325) and a very fine (1200) and a Norton 8000 waterstone. A LV Mk 2 honing guide completes the kit. I would like a grinder but the coarse diamond stone takes care of the infrequent nick and flattens the waterstone. Using a microbevel I find that the leap from the 1200 to the 8000 works well. I have some green rouge but I haven't tried it yet. I have a 1000/4000 waterstone but rarely use it. For me the two DMTs and the 8000 Norton is very efficient.

[Tom Godley]

Will -- I have the single sided lapping plate that is on the glass. I see now that we are speaking about two different plates

I spoke to HMS last week and he advised that I did not need to go to the expense of the metal plate for what I wanted to do. I was a bit confused because we specifically spoke about flattening a new blade with the 500 and then using the lapping plate to true the stone. I only have a few to do.

I had purchased a set of the glass stones when I purchased a set of chisels earlier this year - but I did not get the lapping plate at that time

[Will Blick]

John K, chiseling poplar? That's cheat'in! Do the hard stuff, then you you may consider getting em sharper.... but if you can cut forearm hair, you must be doing a good job with you what you have.....

Archie, I appreciate your enthusiasm.... but beware, all those sharpening accessories you purchased may set you up for a wet noodle lashing real soon.... and if you don't get one, you can thank me for blazing that trail for you :-)

Your approach to evaluate sharpening is sensible...the problem is, most people never tried enough accessories to compare and contrast against....and lets face it, one persons 5 could be another persons 2.

I hear ya about all the attempts you have made.... I have been there too..... IMO, I doubt anything will beat good stones for all the variables you mention, repeatability, sharpness, ease of use and cost effectiveness... (no 30k stones though). Although the Lap Sharp sounds like a viable contender for a power system. Of course, I refer to mainly plane blades and chisels.... other tools such as carving tools, I do not have any experience with.

[John Keeton]

John K, chiseling poplar? That's cheat'in! Do the hard stuff, then you you may consider getting em sharper....Will, I have actually found I can shave endgrain on hardwood easier with a less than perfect edge than softwood. For me, poplar is a better test than oak or maple. It will crush or fold if the edge is not right. Pine is even a better test, but I rarely have any lying around.

[Will Blick]

Good point John.... end grain "can" be tricky.... I had some pine that was slightly dried, and it turned out to be the hardest of any end grain to shave. The rings turned rock hard, and yet the area between the rings stayed very soft. This turned out to be the nastiest test I ever had for end grain shavings... I had to muster every ounce of my knowledge to eventually shave it.... yet, fresh cut hard Maple, shaved like butter.

Good point with the softwoods, below a certain level of sharpness, you will crush instead of cut the wood... but I never have any blades at that level of sharpness anymore :-) So unless there is something unusual about the soft wood, like it being ultra dry, and even then, only the end grain.... I rip through any softwoods like shaving cheese. I gotta admit, I still get a kick out of it....

[george wilson]

Poplar can be difficult to plane cross grain.

[Wilbur Pan]

I have a series of natural Japanese waterstones, ranging from coarse to very fine (greater than the equivalent of 15000 grit), because that's how the makers of masterpieces for hundreds of years managed to get their tools sharp -- at least the ones in Asia did with this technique.

Seriously, there are many sharpening systems out there. They all work, if you practice enough. I've tried a lot of them. My experience is that what seems to separate those systems for individual woodworkers is the relative annoyances of each system, not their ability to produce an edge. Like John, I can get fine endgrain shavings in soft woods like poplar and pine. So can a lot of other people using other sharpening techniques.

[Ray Gardiner]

Sharpening is one of many routine workshop tasks that can benefit from sensible and appropriate use of jigs, but there are some sharpening tasks that jigs are just no help at all, I have just finished restoring a bunch of JB Addis, and SJ Addis carving gouges, all different shapes and profiles. There is no easy way to get results, you have to do it by eye and feel. Chasing the white line till it just vanishes... Jigs are useless in this context. Other stuff like jointer blades etc, jigs are essential.

One often overlooked piece of sharpening equipment is the buffing wheel, I have always finished sharpening on the buffing wheel, for as long as I can remember.

The other aspect to using a buffing wheel, is it's not just a piece of dedicated sharpening gear, it get's used constantly for many other tasks around the workshop, like, buffing wax finishes on turned work and so. Mine is homemade using a 1/4hp washing machine motor, with it's own stand, never needs any maintenance or storage. Worthwhile addition to the workshop.

Slow speed water cooled grinders like tormek etc.. are great for high carbon steel, I am not sure about HSS turning tools though, I still do those on a disk sander.

Regards
Ray

[Mark Maleski]

John Keeton's post pretty much describes my setup as well. Scary sharp, minimal investment, get it over as quickly as possible and get to the wood. I have a set of Nortons that sit unused, but will probably go back to using them once I expand my shop.

I'll add that I couldn't sharpen effectively until I got hands-on instruction with oversight and feedback. Based on that, I'm not a big believer in books/videos/internet postings as a method to establish the skill - though they can be helpful for improving the skill and applying it more broadly. For example, I followed the instructions at toolsforworkingwood.com to ween myself off the sharpening jig. I was happy I had done so once I moved into carving.

[george wilson]

I have an old 6" Craftsman bench grinder,with the flat front. It has 2 piece tool rests.That is,there is one short piece of thick sheet metal bolted on 1 end to the grinder,and on the other end to the L shaped piece that you actually lay the tool on. You can Straighten out this 2 part tool rest so it sticks straight out,and downwards some. It is long enough that you can rest the bolster of the carving tool against the L shaped piece. Then,adjust the rest till the carving tool is presented to the wheel to make the bevel angle that you want on the carving tool. Then,grind,dip,and when you place the bolster back against the L shaped rest,the exact same bevel angle will be presented to the wheel. Just roll the tool around and grind,keep dipping. Keep track of the width of the cutting edge you are grinding.

On a screwed up tool,I first grind the edge flat,then use the width of the flat part as a guide when grinding. Keep the flat part the same width. When the flat part is getting thin,only grind for 2 seconds,and dip.

This flat end produces a nice "line of light" that shows up well. you can grind till the flat edge is 1/100 of an inch wide,and still see it. Then,time to hone on the stone.

When grinding thin,another thing I do is dip the tool in water,and grind. When the droplets of water sizzle,dip quickly or you could soon draw the temper. The heat is shooting up fast,but it is o.k. if you keep the heat near the boiling point of water,as the tools were tempered at about 450 degrees anyway,a brown color.

Use a white 60 grit wheel for grinding. It cuts better,and cooler.

A belt grinder with blue zirconia belts also is excellent. they run coolr than a grinding wheel. My Wilton square wheel grinder can be configured to present an 8" contact wheel to the tool for hollow grinds.

I also grind flat chisels like this,or plane irons.Just put a small C clamp where you want to rest the tool against the wheel,or belt. Makes a great,accurate bevel on flat or curved edges.

[Danny Thompson]

. . . to me he was being complimentary on the beautiful Marcou plane and drawing a contrast to "poor equipment."

Exactly! What a beauty. Obviously, equipment isn't a problem.

And, thanks, Will, for posting your experiences. Yet another experience to throw into the mix.

[Will Blick]

For sure Danny....

If you can't plane with a Marcou Plane, it's time to find another hobby :-) Of course the M12 a miter plane, but when I used it as a smoother, (knob screws into top, making it very versatile) it outperformed my LV Smoother and my BCT 11" Bench plane (an excellent smoother, even though its a Bench plane) At 9 lbs, the M12 doesn't realize there is wood below it.... it just goes about its business.... it won't stop for a knot, cause it requires too much stopping distance, like an 18 wheeler...

the M12 doesn't understand the word "chatter". And that is OK by me, as I prefer it doesn't learn such foul language :-)

This is the first plane I have ever owned / used with this amount of weight.... what I learned is.... there is NO substitute for weight in a hand plane. Not mandatory, and it's a bit cumbersome to lift on/off the work piece, but nonetheless, worth every ounce.

On the shooter, I put the side of my arm on the top of the M12, my web (thumb n pointer finger) around the knob, and let my shoulder produce a piston-like action.... similar to how they slice lunch meat at the local deli .... except, I can produce thinner slices :-). Left hand feeds the lunch roll...., ooops, I mean wood...

OK, I am heading to my concrete bunker after this post!

.

[Jon van der Linden]

The price of the Shapton lapping plates is a little extreme. Although I believe in keeping my stones flat, it seems one can do just as well with a piece of float glass and some judiciously chosen sandpaper, or a diamond stone at less than 1/10th the price. Just pointing out that there's no need to spend $500 on a plate - the waterstones are out of flat within seconds anyway, even if you're careful.

The observation that the Norton 8000 stone didn't work as well with a nagura as it did with 400 grit sandpaper is probably due to the nagura in question. There is a tremendous range in quality, some are really not worth bothering with (cheap synthetic nagura), others do exactly what they're supposed to. The ones that work are the natural nagura such as carried by Japan Woodworker and are about $25.

If you're looking for a heavy plane that has to build some momentum, you can do it with a No 7. It's almost as heavy as Will's Marcou, and you can go as small as you'd care to with a shooting board. Alan Peters used a No 7 for almost all his work - just shows that you don't need a lot, or at least he didn't!

[Richard Dooling]

Since I've been doing more freehand sharpening but also starting into some lathe work I just bought the Wolverine grinder tool rest. I like it because it is adaptable, simple and built like a tank. I just finished installing it and using it to grind a 3/8" bench chisel and a spindle gouge.

Simply put, this is a great tool.

[Jim Koepke]

Since I've been doing more freehand sharpening but also starting into some lathe work I just bought the Wolverine grinder tool rest. I like it because it is adaptable, simple and built like a tank. I just finished installing it and using it to grind a 3/8" bench chisel and a spindle gouge.

Simply put, this is a great tool.

For a second there, I thought I had clicked on the Turner's Forum.
Most of the comments I have read by turner's have been very positive towards the Wolverine.

jim

[Richard Dooling]

Well I posted here because the thing I really noticed about the Wolverine is the simple square SOLID platform. I am a huge fan of the LV product line and LV as a company, but I have, and am not fully happy with their grinder tool rest. It flexes too easily IMO and since I don't use the sliding guide anymore I decided to get this.

The adjustable arm for turners gouges works equally well for bench chisels and the whole process is amazingly fast. Put the chisel handle in the arm's pocket, move the arm in or out so the wheel meets the bevel properly and grind. Remove the chisel to check your progress, put it back in the arm and it is still perfectly registered. Then it's over to the stones and time to make chips and shavings. With the sale price at $65 I couldn't resist.

This is such a simple concept and it works so well. Anybody in the market for a LV grinding jig?:)

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