iron - bronze - white bronze

[Tom Godley]

I am about to order a few planes for a class I am taking in a few weeks -- wondering what the current thinking is regarding metal construction.

Want to get one of the new LV block planes as well as a LN 102. Seriously looking at a LN 5.5. The LV BU are all iron - that smoother looks nice!


looked at the LN planes a few years ago at a show before I did any hand work -- all I remember is that the bronze was somewhat heavier and could stain under some conditions?

[Jim Koepke]

The LN 102 is surely a very nice plane. My preference is for an adjustable mouth. Others say it is not necessary. This is something that is just a matter of personal preference like favorite colors.

If you are in a very moist or dirty atmosphere, there could be some staining problems from the bronze. Have not heard too many complaints.

My preference is also for older used tools because they cost less. Having used some LN tools, I can testify that they are better made than what was available 100 years ago.

jim

[Russ Massery]

I have LN 102 it's great little plane. And I use it a lot more then I thought I would. Mine is in Bronze and in in the 3-4 years I've had it. I have not had in staining issues with it. I think the biggest advantage with bronze it won't rust. Keep in mind that the blade still will.

[David Gilbert]

I saw a Lie Nielsen 102 in white bronze last weekend at the LN showcase in Rochester New York. It was probably the prettiest plane I saw all weekend. I wanted to buy it but fortunately a friend did so it's on my want list. Of course its cost is $150 versus the bronze at $115 and the iron version at $95. It is clearly a special plane at that price!

Also, I think this may be the only white bronze plane that LN sells. Call them to check.

Cheers,

[Joel Goodman]

The LN 5 1/2 is a great plane -- why not get one block plane and that. I'm with Jim on the adjustable mouth. The LN adjustable mouth is smaller than the LV -- whether that's an advantage or not is up to you

[Tom Godley]

Jim - The idea of "tuning" my current planes sounds like a great idea except that I am not sure how to start or if I will end up with a good working planes.

I need to get moving and this class is as good as any reason to buy some I know that I will use.

I need a good block plane and the new design from LV got good reviews -- I also was surprised how much I liked to use the smaller LN 102 when I tried it at another class.

The LN 5.5 and LN #4 smoother were recommended as good fits for the work I want to do.

I think that I would also use the LV BU smoother - gets good reviews from many here.

The bronze issue is a question

[Joel Goodman]

Was the LN 102 you tried and liked bronze ? -- if so go for it. It's a small plane and the added weight may be a help. The 5.5 and the adj mouth block don't have a bronze option. The 4 does. I think the larger plane (5.5) is more useful.

[Tom Godley]

Joel - I believe the 102 I used was iron.

Your right! I just noticed the 5.5 is not available in the bronze!

The LV block is an adjustable mouth.

Thanks

[John Keeton]

I have the 102 in bronze, and it is one of my favorites. Also, the LN and LV low angle block planes are sweet - have both and use the LN most, but I have the LV set up with the tote/knob and use like a small bench plane at times.

[Tom Godley]

John -- do I remember correctly that you also have a LV BU?

[David Keller NC]

Tom - I have many LN planes in both malleable iron and whtie/yellow bronze. I don't think it's a clear-cut "best" vs. "also-ran", much of it depends on your working environment, and to some extent your aesthetic preferences.

The yellow bronze will tarnish, though not as fast as mostly copper/zinc alloys (i.e., "brass") will. If this tarnish is left on the plane, some of it can come off on the wood you're planing, leaving behind a dark green streak. That streaking is minor - not a huge swath of it, and you can avoid it by doing one of 3 things: using the plane often, and storing it in a relatively dry environment - in daily use you won't see the tarnishing on the sole; coating the plane when not in use with the usual rust-prevention materials, like camilla oil, 3-in-1 or to some extent, wax; or polishing off the tarnish with a bit of brasso before you use it.

The advantage to a bronze plane is that it is considerably easier, in my opinion, to keep the rust off of the blade than it is to keep it off of the whole plane. It is also considerably heavier in the #4 smoother - about 1/2 lb., and I think that's an advantage in a metal smoother.

The malleable iron planes in LN's line-up will rust if kept in an environment of over 55% R.H., not used much, and not wiped down after use with a rust-inhibitor. Fingerprints and handprints will rapidly accelerate this rusting - my #9 miter plane develops a superficial brown coating where my palm is in heavy contact with the sidewall pretty much regardless of whether I wipe it down after each use. A bit of artificial very fine steel wool wipes this away with little effort, though, so I don't worry about it.

Regarding block planes, I have the LN adjustable mouth models and the #101 & #102. What I'd say here is that these planes are very different in size - the adjustable mouth models are considerably bigger and heavier than the 101/102. If you're making primarily case-sized pieces of furniture, I'd consider the #60-1/2 low-angle adjustable mouth block. If you like making models, small cabinet work, boxes, toys, etc..., I'd get the low-angle small block plane (the #101, I think).

This is a personal preference, but I like the LN adjustable mouth blocks over the LV models, although I have not tried the new, hot-rodded DX and NX LV planes. Part of the reason is that I prefer the LN adjustment mechanism - it is absolutely bullet proof, and incredibly easy to adjust. It would also be very, very difficult to strip the threads of the advance/retract adjustment by having the lever cap too tight. This is fairly easy to do with a Norris-type mechanism that some of the LV planes use. Not, of course, that I don't like Norris planes - I have several. :)

[David Keller NC]

One other comment - the LN 5.5 is a large, heavy plane. It is the most-used plane in my shop, but that is partly because I have it set-up as a "light fore-plane". In other words, an open mouth and a cambered blade that's a bit less curved than my foreplanes. That means this plane is the one that's used to take off power-planing marks or fore-plane marks off of any medium-length furniture part I produce.

However, I will note that if you really want the plane as a dedicated jack, I would suggest the #5 or even the #5-1/4. They are lighter and have a narrower blade, and that's a good thing if you're using the plane to take off big, thick shavings.

[Tom Godley]

David - Thanks for the info.

I have a few old variations of the 60.5 around -- That is why I was thinking of the LV DX or ND 60.

My plane knowledge is rather thin! This is all great info - not sure how often I will take off big thick shavings.

I have an old bailey #4.5 that I have tried to use and #8 that makes a great paper weight!


I can use the planes that are available at the class -- but I have found that if you get a new tool -- you not only make the class project you learn to properly use the new tool.

[David Keller NC]

Probably, you can tune the Bailey #4.5 and the #8 to be good users. Whether or not this is possible depends on the shape that the planes are in - see Jim Koepke's "Planes and a few things to look for". If there's no major damage, an old Bailey can be turned into a really nice user typically by just adding a replacement blade (I prefer Hock, but LN and others make them as well).

If you intend to move to the neander side of things, you will find both of these planes absolutely indispensable, particularly the #8. One can, for example, use a #6 foreplane with a heavily cambered (curved) iron to remove the milling marks from a board that's too wide to fit your machines, and straighten/flatten it with the #8. What that allows you to do is work boards that are 20" wide without having to invest $15k in stationary power tools, and without doing the unthinkable - ripping it into strips narrow enough to fit through the planer and onto the jointer.

[Sam Takeuchi]

Wait wait wait... You are thinking about getting a LN #4 and a LV BU smoother? That's almost duplicate, you know. LV BU smoother is 4-1/2 size. While some people prefer #4, others like #4-1/2, either way, the difference isn't really big enough to buy both. They do the same thing. Of course if money is no concern, that's up to you.

Wouldn't it be better if you get just one or two plane? Maybe, I don't know, LV BU smoother and a block plane? And then work on them and buy different sized planes as need arises? It seems to me you are really rushing to get tools you think you need, but unsure. They'll be there when you need them, and I'd think it'd be wiser to learn to use a couple of planes first and get the idea how they work, what they are used for. After a little while, it'll give you an idea what this plane can do and can't do, and what sizes of planes will help you to achieve task at hand.

[Derek Cohen]

I am about to order a few planes for a class I am taking in a few weeks -- wondering what the current thinking is regarding metal construction.

Want to get one of the new LV block planes as well as a LN 102. Seriously looking at a LN 5.5. The LV BU are all iron - that smoother looks nice!

Hi Tom

The LN #102 is a great little block plane, but I do not see it at its best in the workshop. It is really aimed at the construction industry, where it can be carried in an apron pocket. The LV Apron plane falls into the same category. In fact the better version for this is the #103, with a higher pitch. I have one and it is just wonderful as a small, handy all rounder.

For work in a shop, the better choice is a LA adjustable mouth block plane, such as the #60 1/2 or the Veritas LA BP. Best of the lot is the new Veritas version (they come in two price ranges).

The LN #5 1/2 is a good choice, although I would say that the Veritas LA Jack would be better since it can be configured as a smoother, jointer, shooting board plane, and jack. Add to this a dedicated smoother (Veritas BU Smoother or LN #4) and you will be covered for most needs ... and with very high quality tools!

Look after the metal by oiling or waxing, and then it is not an issue.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom Godley]

David -- Thanks for even more information.

Sam -- your thoughts are very valid. I am rushing my decision on the planes.

I am taking a week long class next month -- making a proper workbench.

I know I will use the two new block planes. I have a new LN rabbit plane that I bought for some Tenon work two years ago. I also have a old - never used - Record shoulder plane of my dads.

But my thinking was to get another good plane that I know will be used -- that way even if my old planes are serviceable I will have a good plane to round out my collection. So having the LV BU and a serviceable 4.5 would be too much the same.

With the introduction of the BU planes from LV -- and all the positive reviews. I thought that maybe that would be a good introduction to a larger quality plane.

[Sam Takeuchi]

About LV bevel up/low angle planes, they are good. I have BU smoother and LA jack (confusing name scheme for the same family), and they are great. Though, like Derek says, do take care of the bare metal parts. They start forming rust easily if you don't keep them clean and oiled. My LA jack has persistent rust problem on the side where my hand rest while shooting. I'm not too good at keeping it clean and oiled and I have rust to show for, so I advise others to do what I don't do :D

[Joel Goodman]

To add to the confusion the LN 62 Low angle jack is a little smaller then the LV (5 vs 5.5 size) and is a great plane.
For me the 4 is less useful than a 5 sized plane.
One general note -- the BU planes are easier for the beginner to set up but you will want to get your #8 working and a BD will give you an idea of what to aim for.
I don't think you'll regret a LN BU or BD or a LV BU. They're all really good.

If you're getting the plane for a class why not ask the instructor their opinion.

[Tom Godley]

Thanks for all the help provided!

...... decided to go with one of the new LV NX60 block planes and a LN102 WB - both a little overkill but I know I will use them going forward for various projects.

I also spent some time looking over the old planes that I have and the Bailey 4.5 and the 8 are in quite nice shape -- So I think I will get new blades for both of them and learn how to "tune them up"

I did speak to the instructor - a SMC member - That is what started my quest.

They have tools to use so it may be wise to just wait and order others as I gain some knowledge -- but I do not think getting the LV LA Jack or the BU Smother would be a mistake.

[Eddie Darby]

If you have a plane that does not have an adjustable mouth, and you are working some wild grain that requires you to tighten up the mouth, then try some brass shims placed behind the blade.

This works like a charm, and I use it even on bench planes that are more trouble to adjust the Frog forward, than to drop a shim in. This way I can quickly jump around between various modes without the use of any tools.